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Pet Forum / Birds / Birds / September 2004New Love Bird Questions
Hi - I just got a Peach Faced Love Bird yesterday, the owner was an elderly woman and, actually - she passed away (at age 90) it was her granddaughter that placed the bird with me, she was terrified of the bird! So - the bird is supposedly about 8 months old and grandma was to elderly/sick to tame and care for her so she was locked up in a cage all this time. I let her stay in the cage yesterday and get used to the new surroundings. Today I gave her alot of free-time. Exploring and checking things out. She even landed on my finger once when I held it out perch-style. I think it was a fluke but maybe a good sign? I really want to socialize her and get her used to & happy about being handled. the 1st time she was out there was alot of nipping at me when I picker her up to return her to her cage. The 2nd time she was nicer. Do you think she will become accustomed to us or would I be better off getting her a mate and letting them hang out in the cage? I think 8 months isn' too late, is it? Can anyone give me some pointers on helping "tame" this birdy? Also - I have read conflicting things on diet - any help there? Thanks alot- If its you intention to bond with this bird do not get it a mate. Otherwise they will bond to each other and never to you. Also you will never hear the end of it as lovebirds have an annoying squawk that will drive you crazy. Just try to visit your local bird specialty store that carries love birds and you'll see what I mean. If you want to bond with it then do give it lots of playtime out of the cage but beware in order to "tame" it you will have get used to clipping its wings or have someone else do it as if it flies then it will be harder to tame and the dangers associated with flying indoors are plentiful. Best thing at the moment is to read up all you can about lovebirds (books, internet sources) and make it feel as comfortable as possible in its new surroundings! Good luck! > Hi - > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thanks alot- > Hi - > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thanks alot- With a LB, especially a new to your home LB, if all you got was "nipped" you are well on the way to having a great pet already. These birds are notorious for being VERY aggressive. They will take on another bird of any size. They can, if they want, immediately draw blood. If the bird is just nipping, it is obviously choosing not to bite. You sound like you are doing the right things. Spend time with the bird, several times a day. When you have to put it back in it's cage, try not to pick it up, if you can avoid it. If you can get it to perch on a finger, then move it back to the cage it will be a lot less scared. It takes time, but you are already getting there. Keep us posted on how it goes.  Signature25% graduate functional illiterates. We should remove the warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the problem. Peter Weisbach > > Hi - > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > then move it back to the cage it will be a lot less scared. It takes time, > but you are already getting there. Keep us posted on how it goes. Thanks I've been pretty mellow about letting her stay out as long as she wants. She will fly back to her cage and go inside when she's fed up with my toddler shrieking at her. Poor birdy! I only had her land on my finger the one time. I also held her twice and tried to pet and snuggle her head and neck, the cockatiels love it but I guess LBs are different LOL - she didn't hate it but it didn't have her cooing. I don't know if i should attempt clipping the wings myself or bring her someplace. right now she swoops all over - well, if i go too close or if my son runs at her!!! > I've been pretty mellow about letting her stay out as long as she wants. > She [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > at > her!!! If you can be 100% sure no one is going to let her get outside free flying is fine. You have to remember if she ever gets out you will most likely never see her alive again. If you decide to clip her it's easy to do, but it would be good to have someone show you how once, and do so a little at a time. You can clip a little at a time till you reduce the flying ability enough, with out the bird just falling to the floor. Have fun, LBs can make a great pet. They have a lot of personality. Signature25% graduate functional illiterates. We should remove the warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the problem. Peter Weisbach > > I've been pretty mellow about letting her stay out as long as she wants. > > She [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > enough, with out the bird just falling to the floor. Have fun, LBs can make > a great pet. They have a lot of personality. She's awesome and very nice but someone else said to clip the wings if I want to tame her. As it is if I get too close she flies off. But I had to scoop her up and hold her to get her in her cage (in a hurry to get out of the house) - she resisted and nipped a bit but not hard, I guess she likes me :) It was I that suggested clipping her wings. What that does is make her rely on you to finger perch her back up to a height she is comfortable with. This will make her learn to trust you more and bond with you. >> > I've been pretty mellow about letting her stay out as long as she >> > wants. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > the house) - she resisted and nipped a bit but not hard, I guess she likes > me :) > It was I that suggested clipping her wings. What that does is make her rely > on you to finger perch her back up to a height she is comfortable with. This > will make her learn to trust you more and bond with you. Wow I must be amazingly talented then. None of mine is usually clipped and most of them trust me and have bonded with me.If I walk into the large mixed aviary all the flighted birds in there come and sit on whichever part of my body they can get to. You got some issues! What's your point? Are you stating that all birds will respond the way your birds do? Looks like somone is spending way too much time with their birds! If you get the picture , she has a small child and probably family to take care off and the bird is not her priority. She just wants to tame it a little to the point where it is will be somewhat friendly to the family! Also, I don't think she has an aviary like you unless you count her house with all the doors and windows closed an aviary! >> It was I that suggested clipping her wings. What that does is make her > rely [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > my > body they can get to. > You got some issues! What's your point? Are you stating that all birds > will respond the way your birds do? Looks like somone is spending way [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Wow I must be amazingly talented then. None of mine is usually clipped Hey Pam, I thought you said that you DIDN'T clip your birds, now you're saying that they aren't "usually" clipped??? Which one is it, do you clip or don't you clip??? >> and most of them trust me and have bonded with me.If I walk into the >> large mixed aviary all the flighted birds in there come and sit on >> whichever part of my body they can get to. Oh, yes let's not forget that Ms Pam knows her birds so well that she mixes speices. Such as old world and new world parrots in the same cage/aviary. I am sure that it is safe to say that by the time you're done you'll have gotten an "earfull" from Ms Pam and the "right" way to do things. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' >> It was I that suggested clipping her wings. What that does is make her > rely [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > my > body they can get to. Just watch out for pockets and long sleeves! ... <g> It seems lovebirds especially like crawling in those places. If you've got a ponytail, they'll undo that for you too ... My lovie was clipped when I got her, but I let the feathers grow. Outside the cage, she wanted nothing to do with anything that wasn't ... well ... one of us. > My lovie was clipped when I got her, but I let the feathers grow. Outside > the cage, she wanted nothing to do with anything that wasn't ... well ... > one of us. That "probably" had nothing to do with the bird being flighted. Birds can and do recognize their "people / flock". It's very common for a friendly pet bird to not want anything to do with strangers. It's also not uncommon for a pet to take to only one family member. Our Macaw will readily come to the other half or me. He prefers wife, but loves me also. He will bite, and even try to attack strangers. I have seen one other person who could handle him, but he was a "bird person" and did not show any fear. Same with the BCC. He prefers me. Will fly away if wife reaches for him, and will bite for all he is worth if a stranger offers him a finger. The one exception was the same guy who could handle the Macaw, for the same reason. Often birds that are great with everyone at a pet store, will after time with one family become no longer willing to come to strangers. Signature25% graduate functional illiterates. We should remove the warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the problem. Peter Weisbach >> My lovie was clipped when I got her, but I let the feathers grow. >> Outside the cage, she wanted nothing to do with anything that wasn't [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > at a pet store, will after time with one family become no longer willing > to come to strangers. Alex, I have to agree with you on that. When I was still in Florida I had a neighbor who had/has a beautiful Golden Lab/German Shepard mix female. Who did NOT like men, and would let them know it. I'd first met her when her "mom" had her tied up outside while she was doing some housework. Her "mom" was coming back from the laundry room and saw me approaching her dog, and warned me that she didn't like men. I'd told her that I'd already been petting and playing with her. . . Like her son and our landlord, I was one of the few exceptions. I could take her for a walk around the park that we lived across the street from. I could even reach my hand in and take the dried pieces of bread and whatnot that she'd find that people had fed to the ducks, geese and whatnot that lived on the lake. Yet, when we'd be out walking I'd always warn people that dispite what they're seeing she does NOT like men and to keep their distance. Of course there'd be those who though that she'd like them. She'd let out a growl that told them otherwise. Even though I was observing from the wrong end of her I'm sure that her teeth were bared as well. And they'd always back up in a hurry. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' >> That "probably" had nothing to do with the bird being flighted. Birds >> can and do recognize their "people / flock". It's very common for a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > that her teeth were bared as well. And > they'd always back up in a hurry. This "sounds" like the dog had a bad experience with a man. Often dogs who have been abused will forever have a problem. I have seen dogs that did not like Men, but would allow children of any sex to climb all over them, and I knew of one that had a "thing" about uniforms. He was several years old when the owner got him from the pound so no way to know exactly what happened, but he did not like anyone wearing a Police type uniform. If the same person walked in without the uniform the dog was fine. Who knows. With birds it's just a matter of socialization. Most tame birds that are regularly handled by different people will stay fine with anyone. Just look at how many birds you see in pet shops that don't care who pays attention to them as long as they get attention. Take that bird home where they no longer see lots of strangers and they will very often loose the trust of strangers and only respond to the people it (the bird) considers "family". I guess when they are regularly being played with by strangers they just don't bond with just one or two people, but when taken home it is quite common for them to only want to be touched by the people they bonded with. Of course there are always exceptions, but from what I have seen over the years this is VERY common with pet birds. Signature25% graduate functional illiterates. We should remove the warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the problem. Peter Weisbach > This "sounds" like the dog had a bad experience with a man. Often dogs > who have been abused will forever have a problem. I have seen dogs that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > but from what I have seen over the years this is VERY common with pet > birds. Alex, She had been abused, but ironicly NOT by a man by the owners sister. So why she didn't like men but women is a bit of a mystery in itself. I could understand IF she didn't like women after having been abused by a female, but not her dislike of males. Her acceptance of me may also have had something to do with the fact that when I first approached her I did not do so "towering" over her but more or less on her level. Letting her sniff me, and more or less setting the pace. Granted I know that this will not work with everyone or with every animal who "hates" one gender or the other, or who doesn't like as you pointed out uniforms. And speaking of that Peaches also did NOT like it/respond well to men who wore baseball caps, as she couldn't see their eyes. Again her "moms" son, and myself were the exception. I did have to "laugh" at an encounter the landlords maintaince man recalled having had gone into her apartment to do some repairs. Peaches allowed him, and to do the work, but when he attepmted to leave he got bite in the a.s. . . Also, I had to "laugh" at Peaches. When I'd go over to take her out for a walk. When I'd first knock on the door and until she either heard my voice or caught my scent she'd bark like she wanted to "tear" my head off of my shoulders. But once she heard my voice or caught my sent she changed to her "happy, happy, joy, joy" mode cause she knew that I would take her on a good energitic romp around the lake. I also had to "laugh" at both Peaches and her "mom" when they'd be out IF Peaches saw me she would DRAG her "mom" to get to me. . . She was a very beautiful and friendly (IF you were the right person) dog. And when I was still down there I had no doubt that IF anyone tried ANYTHING with either myself or Peaches' "mom" that they would have lived to regert it. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' >> I've been pretty mellow about letting her stay out as long as she >> wants. She [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > flying ability enough, with out the bird just falling to the floor. Have > fun, LBs can make a great pet. They have a lot of personality. Alex, I'd say that they have enough PERSONALITY to fill a dozen Blue and Gold Macaws SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' > > I've been pretty mellow about letting her stay out as long as she wants. > > She [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > enough, with out the bird just falling to the floor. Have fun, LBs can make > a great pet. They have a lot of personality. Having a clipped bird with small kids would worry me greatly. It has virtally no chance of escaping from a running child and could get killed by a falling child or getting stepped on :0( I suppose having unclipped birds with the risk of small kids allowing them to escape is just as worrying though. The fact that the OP admits she allows her small kid to "run at" the bird would worry me also. I have no faith at all in today's parents ability to protect their small pets from unruly kids so I simply refuse to rehome to anyone with small kids. And yes I am a mean old nasty person, and of *course* each parent of small kids will swear that *their* child is sweet, well behaved and wouldn't *dream* of hurting an animal etc etc etc, and if the small pet retaliates and takes a chunk out of the little darling's finger, the animal is deemed 'nasty' or 'mean' and if it is lucky it is rehomed, if not, either killed or set free. > > > I've been pretty mellow about letting her stay out as long as she wants. > > > She [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > 'nasty' or 'mean' and if it is lucky it is rehomed, if not, either killed or > set free. My son is still learning the rules. I don't allow him to act like a maniac - but he's 3 and he's a boy and he gets excited. He doesn't "run at" the bird, he wants her to perch on his finger like the parakeets and cockatiels do. Then she gets scared and flies off and he runs around after her all excited. Don't be so quick to judge all of us horrible evil parents. This is not the house of horrors. My son has been around birds since he was born, this is our first time with a lovebird though. Most of you old cranks probably grew up with a family dog who's tail you pulled when nobody looked :-P ~~~~~~ > My son is still learning the rules. I don't allow him to act like a maniac - > but he's 3 and he's a boy and he gets excited. He doesn't "run at" the bird, Ahem. opied and pasted from one of your posts: "> > I don't know if i should attempt clipping the wings myself or bring her > > someplace. > > right now she swoops all over - well, if i go too close or if my son runs > > at > > her!!!" > he wants her to perch on his finger like the parakeets and cockatiels do. > Then she gets scared and flies off and he runs around after her all excited. But you already said he ran at her, now you admit he is chasing her. > Don't be so quick to judge all of us horrible evil parents. This is not the > house of horrors. My son has been around birds since he was born, this is > our first time with a lovebird though. Well goody for you. He has been around birds all his life yet you have never taught him not to chase or run at them. See all parents think their kids are little darlings don't they? > Most of you old cranks probably grew up with a family dog who's tail you > pulled when nobody looked :-P ~~~~~~ I may be cranky, but nope we never had a dog and I never pulled a dogs tail either. Had I done so it would have earned me a swift slap across the legs. And I do have a now grown son and had he mistreated an animal he too would have had a swift slap to the legs. He grew up with lots and lots of animals and was taught to respect them. That was back in the olden days though when moderate discipline wasn't considered to be child abuse. >> Having a clipped bird with small kids would worry me greatly. It has >> virtally no chance of escaping from a running child and could get [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> animal is deemed 'nasty' or 'mean' and if it is lucky it is rehomed, >> if not, either killed or set free. Pam, I think that it is time for you to check your meds. You don't think that anyone BUT you and your hand picked group of kiss ups has the ability to take care of pets, or small children. I suppose that your child NEVER ran towards the family pet, or pulled it's tail or anything else like that. . . > My son is still learning the rules. I don't allow him to act like a > maniac - but he's 3 and he's a boy and he gets excited. He doesn't "run [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Most of you old cranks probably grew up with a family dog who's tail you > pulled when nobody looked :-P ~~~~~~ Don't mind her, that's Pam "our" resident curmudgeon. She's of the opinion that if someone doesn't do things according to the "Great and Wise" Pam that they're wrong. I am sure that with the exception of Pam and a few other "do no wrongs" that almost everyone knew that you didn't mean that your son "runs at" at your Lovebird in the sense that he is lunging at it, but rather that he's chasing it in an attempt to catch it. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' ><(((*> Most of you old cranks probably grew up with a family dog who's tail you ><(((*> pulled when nobody looked :-P ~~~~~~ We had a beagle, and you don't want to know what we used to do to his ears... Tara J. Ballance Montreal, Canada > ><(((*> Most of you old cranks probably grew up with a family dog who's tail you > ><(((*> pulled when nobody looked :-P ~~~~~~ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Tara J. Ballance > Montreal, Canada Ohhh myyyyyyy! >> > Hi - >> > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > someplace. right now she swoops all over - well, if i go too close or if > my son runs at her!!! I also have both a Lovebird and a 'Tiel, and like Alex has said, they can and will attack other birds even IF that other bird is bigger then they are. Mine is also I guess a little more mellow then most. As he doesn't have the "shreik" that others have said. If yours hasn't already don't be too surprise IF he/she tries to take a bath in his/her water cup. Mine does this ALL the time, even when I went from a water cup to one of those gravity type water feeders. The type that usually comes with a "matching" seed feeder. I gave up trying to "break" mine of this habit and attached a bird bath to it's cage. Now IF it want's to take a bath it can, and IF it wants a drink it can do that as well. Also as I think Alex mentioned they CAN draw blood (but then so can any of our pets) so watch their body langage. For the petting/snuggling mine is what I jokingly refer to as an "avian slut." He'll let anyone and everyone pet him, snuggle him all day long or as long as the person is willing to do it. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but lovebirds LOVE to crawl inside and under things. Blankets, sofa covers, behind pillows, etc. You'de be surprised where they get to. They will try to follow you as well. Many are killed every year due to being sat/stepped on, door being opened into them, etc. Some have even flown into toilets and drowned. Whatever you can imagine, a lovebird has done. Just be aware they will go most EVERYWHERE, and people living with them must be very careful. Dave > Hi - > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks alot- > I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but lovebirds LOVE to crawl > inside and under things. Blankets, sofa covers, behind pillows, etc. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dave David, Sorry forgot about that. Mine LOVES to crawl inside of my shirt. I have to say that feathers YES, claws NO. He'll either come back out of the neck hole or out of one of my sleeves. My Lovebird is also more of a chewer then my 'Tiel. If my Grandmother and I are sitting at the table me reading or surfing the Net, and she either reading or doing word puzzles she's had her puzzle books "attacked" a number of times. "He" usually ends up doing the nesting thing of tucking what he "shreds" up under his tail feathers. On the other hand, my 'Tiel isn't much of a chewer. Nor is he as "courious" about things/spaces as my Lovebird. . . SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' > I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but lovebirds LOVE to crawl inside > and under things. Blankets, sofa covers, behind pillows, etc. You'de be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dave I agree - whenever I let a bird out I close doors to all the rooms that would be off-limits and I never cook with a bird out!! I've heard of horror stories with that too! >> I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but lovebirds LOVE to crawl >> inside and under things. Blankets, sofa covers, behind pillows, etc. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > would be off-limits and I never cook with a bird out!! I've heard of > horror stories with that too! Even if your bird(s) isn't/aren't out of their cage while you're cooking. Cooking can still be deadly to them. If you burn something while you're cooking the fumes can prove to be fatal. And if you have cookware that has Teflon® or similar non-stick coating. It can produce deadly fumes. Fumes that'll effect our birds first and IF the coating gets hot enough it'll even effect us humans. The "jury" is still out as to what constitutes "overheating." There are those who will say 300 degrees or 500 degrees. All I know for sure is that I do not use Teflon® or similar non-stick cookware in my house. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > All I know for sure is that I do not use Teflon® or similar non-stick > cookware in my house. Yes, I'm aware of this. I also heard that candles are bad but I don't remember why. I was about to use the George Foreman grill and then had second thoughts. I would imagine the non-stick coating on that would be a potential danger. Do you know if having ventilation while cooking helps - like opeing the window or putting on the kitchen fan? > Yes, I'm aware of this. I also heard that candles are bad but I don't > remember why. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do you know if having ventilation while cooking helps - like opeing the > window or putting on the kitchen fan? Scented candles are what you normally need to watch out for. The scents can often send out stuff that can be hard on birds. Things like "carpet fresh" are the same. In general be real careful with anything scented. Birds air sacs work much differently that our lungs, and it makes them much more susceptible to "stuff" in the air, especially since they can't get away from it. As to the PTFE (Teflon) it's in all kinds of things in your house. The problem is burning grease or fat, no matter what you burn it in. Many people have a hard time with C or F conversion, but the temp at which that PTFE will out gas is way above what it would take to have the food burning real good. If you cook with the smoke alarm as a timer, it will not make any difference to the birds if you use stainless steel pans, they will still die. Of course ventilation is very good. If you have a range hood that vents to the outside use it when you cook, and of course make sure the birds are not in the same room as the cooking, and remember to watch it with the self cleaning oven. It does the same thing, burns the crud and the smoke it creates can kill. If you REALLY care about PTFE and the facts Dupont has a site that explains it. A lot of people like to pretend it's not there because it just gives the facts not hype, but if you really want to know it will tell you the truth. Signature25% graduate functional illiterates. We should remove the warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the problem. Peter Weisbach > > Yes, I'm aware of this. I also heard that candles are bad but I don't > > remember why. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > gives the facts not hype, but if you really want to know it will tell you > the truth. Thanks for the info. i'll have to see what I can learn >> Yes, I'm aware of this. I also heard that candles are bad but I don't >> remember why. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > of people like to pretend it's not there because it just gives the facts > not hype, but if you really want to know it will tell you the truth. Alex, Before I purchase anything I check to see if it has Teflon® or PTFE listed I do not purchase it. As I would much rather err on the side of caution. I think in the past that you've that there is Teflon® or PTFE inside of computers, where? I've had my desktop apart so many times I can break it down and reassemble it with my eyes closed. My laptop has also been "broken" down for repairs, upgrades, etc. And I didn't see anything inside of it that looked as if it had either Teflon® or PTFE inside of or on it. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' > I think in the past that you've that there is Teflon® or PTFE inside of > computers, where? I've had my desktop apart so many times I can break it > down and reassemble it with my eyes closed. My laptop has also been > "broken" down for repairs, upgrades, etc. And I didn't see anything > inside of it that looked as if it had either Teflon® or PTFE inside of or > on it. It's a common part of the insulation on wire now. Has been for a long time. If your computer has wire's it has PTFE, better toss it. Signature25% graduate functional illiterates. We should remove the warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the problem. Peter Weisbach >> I think in the past that you've that there is Teflon® or PTFE inside of >> computers, where? I've had my desktop apart so many times I can break [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's a common part of the insulation on wire now. Has been for a long > time. If your computer has wire's it has PTFE, better toss it. Alex, Can you please some links to back this up? SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' >> It's a common part of the insulation on wire now. Has been for a long >> time. If your computer has wire's it has PTFE, better toss it. > > Alex, > > Can you please some links to back this up? Why? I'm sure if I took the time to look I could find it, and people who have their mind made up and don't want to be confused by facts would ignore it, just like they ignore the Dupont site. Many people "claim" they are "just being careful". If that was true they would never cook in the same house where birds are. It's the cooking that is the danger not what they cook in. PTFE gives a few people something to rant on about, so why not. <shrug>. I don't try to talk sense to them, just assure newbies that drop in that their birds are not going to drop dead because they have PTFE in the house. To those who claim it is going to kill the birds, cause SID's, melt the polar ice caps, and in general wipe out the human race, hey what the hell, they can have fun telling the world it's too late for us all. Signature25% graduate functional illiterates. We should remove the warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the problem. Peter Weisbach >>> It's a common part of the insulation on wire now. Has been for a long >>> time. If your computer has wire's it has PTFE, better toss it. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > caps, and in general wipe out the human race, hey what the hell, they > can have fun telling the world it's too late for us all. Alex, Just telling the newbies that it's "safe" without providing them with the links to back it up, isn't really doing them much good, now is it? As far as telling people about going to DuPont's web site (not to sound like a conspiracy theory nut or anything), but isn't that kind of like telling someone who believes that cigarette smoking is harmful to go and talk to the tobacco industry to find out for themselves that tobacco is harmless??? I mean IF there is/was any danger at all from Teflon®/PTFE do you really think that DuPont who (one can reasonably presume) hopes to make money off of it will tell the truth about it? I mean just look at how long it took to get the tobacco industry to own up to the truth. And this was after plenty of doctors and scientists had been publishing reports on the dangers of smoking. And how do you explain all of the lawsuits that have supposedly been filed against DuPont over Teflon® and other materials that they've made? I mean IF I remember correctly the "meat" of the lawsuits (at least the ones revolving around Teflon®) is that DuPont allegedly allowed some of the chemicals that go into the making of Teflon® to seep into the water supply of some towns. I also recall hearing that DuPont decided to settle on the lawsuit(s). As far as proof about the whether or not Teflon® coated products I would have to say that this report both supports and refutes your argument that Teflon® isn't a hazard: http://www.busybeaks.com/QA%20teflon.pdf And again NOT to sound like some kind of "conspiracy theory nut" but your just posting that Teflon® isn't a danger without providing evidence to back up your claims could make one think that you had something to gain from convincing the public that Teflon® doesn't pose a health risk. Just my two cents. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' > Alex, > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Just my two cents. The lack of law suits about PTFE is what lead me to dismiss the fear. The actions about the chemical dumping had nothing to do with the final product. If the bottom feeders thought they could even claim, without proving, the stuff you read on some of the web sites they would be lined up to sue Dupont. The fact that they are not is VERY telling. As to "safe" I don't claim PTFE pans are "safe", I just tell people cooking is a hazard no matter what you cook in. This is what the alarmists do not want to hear. They talk about PTFE, and ignore the real problem, burned grease. Many people have read some website that anyone can make, since "Dupont of course lies", then they proudly announce they have switched to cast iron since if it's "forgotten on the stove" it's safe. This is what is really doing a disservice to new people to birds. The cast iron cook ware is far more dangerous. Once "seasoned" if left on the stove empty, even at medium heat, it will soon put out deadly fumes. This is what I tell people, but as I said a lot of them have their mind made up so they don't want to hear it. The way you choose to try to pretend you don't "get" what I'm saying is a prime example. PTFE is WIDELY used in the home, has been for many years, yet you don't want to hear it. I never claim the stuff is "safe", yet that's what you choose to hear because it "fits" with your agenda. <shrug> Signature25% graduate functional illiterates. We should remove the warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the problem. Peter Weisbach >> Alex, >> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > to hear it. I never claim the stuff is "safe", yet that's what you > choose to hear because it "fits" with your agenda. <shrug> Alex, In your reply to Dropped21 you said, "As to the PTFE (Teflon) it's in all kinds of things in your house. The problem is burning grease or fat, no matter what you burn it in." Would that not lead someone who is new to keeping birds, to believe that it is safe to use cookware coated with it Teflon®/PTFE? Did you read that PDF file I posted the link to? And yes from doing research on Google, I know that Teflon®/PTFE is in a LOT more products that are commonly found in the household then "just" cookware. Such as curling irons, hair blowers, space heaters, to name a few. Which is why I am careful about what I purchase to use in the house. Doesn't it sound reasonable that a curling iron, hair blower, space heater, by design more is likely to reach the temperatures at which outgassing of the chemicals will occur then the normal use of a frying pan for cooking? If you read that PDF file you will see that the author clearly stated that it is also used in drip pans. And that BECAUSE of the drip pans closer proximity to the heating coils that said drip pan(s) WILL reach outgassing temperatures MUCH quicker then a regular frying pan being used in the NORMAL way/manner. I do not dispute with you that under NORMAL emphasis on NORMAL use that Teflon®/PTFE coated cookware is in all probability reasonably safe. But what about the person who is boiling water and gets distracted and the pot boils dry? There can hardly be any "grease" or "fat" in that pot to burn and create fumes, correct? The following recommendations come from that PDF file, and they sound like common sense to me. 1) If you have a PTFE coated drip pan, throw it away 2) Never boil water in a PTFE coated pan 3) Never leave the kitchen when a PTFE coated pan is in use 4) Cook at low or medium heat when using PTFE coated pans 5) Use a culinary thermometer to determine the temperature at which your PTFE coated appliances (deep fryers, waffle makers) operate 6) Never allow anyone to use PTFE coated cookware in your home unless instructed of its potential danger 7) Ensure that your kitchen is properly ventilated, preferably by a hood that vents outdoors 8) If you are an absent-minded person: give your PTFE coated cookware away. Number 8 in that list indirectly applies to me as I moved in with my elderly Grandmother to take care of her. Sadly my Grandmother is among those who has Alzheimer's Disease. And from talking with my father and step-mother I can tell you that she HAS put pots on the stove to cook something and forgot that they were there and burned them up. So don't you think that in a household with someone who has Alzheimer's that it is prudent NOT to take the chance of Teflon®/PTFE coated cookware overheating? The bottom line is that regardless of how "safe" it maybe under NORMAL use/circumstances there will always be exceptions to the "rule" and that it is better to err on the side of caution. As for it being used in the insulation of the wires that may be inside of our computers or other non-heat producing devices, do you think that under NORMAL operation of said computer or other devices that they'll get anywhere near the temperatures needed to outgas the chemicals? Unless they have a short or some other sort of failure, that is. Also isn't it possible that the lack of lawsuits could be attributed to DuPont's willingness to settle out of court? While doing my research I came across this article: (http://www.curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=362&i=2127). In you'll see that according to DuPont's own research there are a WHOLE lot of toxic chemicals that are released at various temperatures. That article includes the URL (http://www.ewg.org/reports/toxicteflon/es.php) to another article that presents the results of test conducted while preheating cookware. In which the cookware reached or exceeded the temperatures needed to start the outgassing process. SignatureDigital_Cowboy Live Long and Prosper ___________________ _-_ \==============_=_/ ____.---'---`---.____ \_ \ \----._________.----/ \ \ / / `-_-' __,--`.`-'..'-_ /____ ||- `--.____,-' |
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