I think Fruit Loop is getting "comfy"

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Chuck Chopp - 05 Mar 2004 05:59 GMT

Is it a positive sign of a macaw becoming comfortable in her new home
environment when she begins coming down from her cage and spending time on
the floor waddling around and exploring around the house?

The past 3 days, Fruit Loop has been making forays into the kitchen while
I'm cooking meals. She gets impatient waiting for her bowl to arrive full
of "bite bites" [her words for a snack as I learned], so she comes to the
kitchen now to stand there making "feed me" gestures like a baby chick.
After a few minutes of head bobbing, she waddles on back to her cage, climbs
up to the top and sits there waiting for the bowl to be placed in the
holder. It was really funny today because my chihuahua was in the house and
he and Fruit Loop were both sitting there staring at me while I was cooking.
To see a dog sitting up begging and a bird sitting there bobbing her head
with her beak opened sideways and her tongue hanging out was quite funny.

Today she had some chili & macaroni for lunch and she went "ape" over it...
devoured the whole bowl, macaronis, beef bits and kidney beans and all. It
was qute spicey [my own recipe] and she loved it. It was quite funny when
she got a piece of macaroni stuck on the end of her beak and couldn't knock
it loose. For dinner she had a bit of pork chop, green beans and au gratin
potatoes. The potatoes didn't get much of a response from her, but the
green beans and pork chop were gone in almost no time at all. Oh, and the
sounds she makes when she gets something with ketchup on it... she actually
sings a song when she's licking ketchup off of something.

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Chuck Chopp

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oldmolly - 05 Mar 2004 10:37 GMT

> Is it a positive sign of a macaw becoming comfortable in her new home
> environment when she begins coming down from her cage and spending time on
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> sounds she makes when she gets something with ketchup on it... she actually
> sings a song when she's licking ketchup off of something.

Are you not worried about the high protein levels in her diet? What
about all the salt you are giving her??
high fat and salt is a recipe for disaster and death in any bird. :0(

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jmcquown - 05 Mar 2004 15:17 GMT

>> Today she had some chili & macaroni for lunch and she went "ape"
>> over it... devoured the whole bowl, macaronis, beef bits and kidney
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> about all the salt you are giving her??
> high fat and salt is a recipe for disaster and death in any bird. :0(

Yeah, I'd be worried about that, too. I know people say it is okay to feed
your bird whatever you eat, but hell, doctor's can't even agree on what is
good for us to eat.

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Chuck Chopp - 05 Mar 2004 15:56 GMT

> Are you not worried about the high protein levels in her diet? What
> about all the salt you are giving her??
> high fat and salt is a recipe for disaster and death in any bird. :0(

What makes you think I'm using foods with a high sodium or fat content? I
am a knowledgeable cook, an informed purchaser of food ingredients and I
cook all my meals from scratch. I'm well aware of the sodium & fat contents
of pre-prepared foods, many types of canned foods and other sorts of "boxed"
mixes. I get recipes from a "heart smart" cook book, or else I simply make
informed choices in the ingredients that I use in other recipes to keep the
nutrtional contents "healthy".

The chili that I make is made using tomatoes that I canned and they have the
lowest possible amount of salt added that can be used to safely can the
tomatoes. I use 4% fat content extra lean ground beef and a dried kidney
beans that have been soaked in water to soften them up. No salt is added
during cooking, just chili powder and various other herbs & seasonings that
don't contain sodium.

The au gratin potatoes are made using 2% skim milk [lactose free, too], a
minimal amount of low fat skim milk cheese, and, again, no added salt.

The green beans were frozen, but have no salt added during processing by the
food packaging company and no salt or butter added during preparation in the
kitchen.

The macaroni has a very tiny amount of sodium as does all pasta, but it is
well within safe levels.

The pork chops are also very lean and have all of the fat trimmed off of
them before they are cooked. A non-fat cooking spray is used on the griddle
and a sodium-free seasoning is used on it while it is being cooked.

Now, as for portion sizes, we're talking about 1 to 2 teaspoons of meat that
has been cut/minced into very small pieces, whether it be pork chop or
ground beef. The green beans are served up in probably 8 to 10 cut pieces
that are about 1 inch long each. The au gratin potatoes serving size was
one small [about 1 inch round] slice of potato. Finally, about 6 pieces of
elbow macaroni were served. All in all, we're talking about tiny portions
here that serve to provide variety in the flavor of food but not a
significant amount of fat or sodium or even a large # of calories. Finally,
most days Fruit Loop only gets to sample table food for the dinner time
meal, but yesterday it just so happened that she popped into the kitchen
unexpectedly while I was preparing my lunch and so I gave her a tiny sample
as a treat in place of one of the parrot cookies that she might have usually
gotten at that time. If I am eating something that I know isn't going to be
healthy for Fruit Loop, I typically prepare a tiny portion of mixed
vegetables such as corn, peas, carrots, green beans & diced red bell peppers
that I can give her in place of the food that I'm eating. It takes what, 2
minutes to throw some mixed veggies in a bowl and warm them up?

The vast majority of Fruit Loop's diet consists of the ZuPreem brand fruit
flavored pebbles for large parrots, Kay-Tee nut & seed mix for Macaws,
home-made dried fruits [pineapple, orange, mango, banana, apple] that have
nothing added to them [no sugar, no salt, no preservatives], fresh fruits
such as apples, oranges and bananas and raw [unroasted, unsalted] nuts in
the shell [peanutes, almonds, sunflower seeds, filberts, brazil nuts,
walnuts]. She also consumes a couple of parrot treats each day, such as hot
pepper parrot cookies and mango-flavored yogourt covered cookies that are
made for parrots.

I fail to see where there's a problem in my food selection, food preparation
or serving sizes at this time. I've discussed these matters with my vet and
he's satisfied that Fruit Loop isn't getting too much of anything harmful in
her diet.

Also, in your rush to bash me over sodium & fat content in table foods of
which you knew nothing about their origin or preparation, you completely
disregarded the question that I asked in the very first sentence of my
posting. To save you the trouble of having to go back to that posting, here
it is again:

> Is it a positive sign of a macaw becoming comfortable in her new home environment when she begins coming down from her cage and spending time on the floor waddling around and exploring around the house?

Please don't take the approach that everybody is a blathering idiot and that
you are the sole-single authority on everything; that's just arrogant and
conceited, and it gets pretty damned irritating, too.

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Chuck Chopp

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Starlight - 05 Mar 2004 18:23 GMT

There's a lot of sodium in milk, cheese, ice cream, etc.. Just a fyi
not necessarily directed at you.

>> Is it a positive sign of a macaw becoming comfortable in her new home environment when she begins
> coming down from her cage and spending time on the floor waddling around and exploring around the house?

Is this a rhetorical question? ;) What do you think?

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Chuck Chopp - 05 Mar 2004 19:11 GMT

> There's a lot of sodium in milk, cheese, ice cream, etc.. Just a fyi
> not necessarily directed at you.

Agreed. Because of my own dietary needs, I actually take the time to
purchase cheeses and milk products that aren't overly rich in sodium, with
alternative ingredients being substituted in some cases where necessary.
Also, I'm not looking at making dairy products a significant portion of
Fruit Loop's diet. As I understand it, parrots do not produce the lactase
enzyme and so they are lactose intolerant. That's fine with me as I'm
lactose intolerant, too, so I have to be careful in my own choices of dairy
products that I consume or use in cooking.

>>>Is it a positive sign of a macaw becoming comfortable in her new home environment when she begins
>>
>>coming down from her cage and spending time on the floor waddling around and exploring around the house?
>
> Is this a rhetorical question? ;) What do you think?

I guess comes down to a question about behavioral differences between macaws
living in captivity and macaws living in the wild. In the wild, they spend
signficant amounts of time in flight searching for food. They roost on tree
branches or within hollowed out trees at night and prefer to remain off the
ground to avoid being taken by a predator in their sleep. In captivity,
they behave differently because they aren't subjected to the same threats
and other environmental factors that shape their behavior in the wild.

Other than making sure that the usual high degree of "child proofing" has
been maintained in those areas that she has access to, I was wondering what
else I might expect w/respect to her explorations on the ground. For
example, today she came down to the floor, walked down the hallway, into my
office and then proceeded to climb up my pants & shirt [while I was
sitting]in a chair at my computer] and she's now perched on my shoulder as I
type. Previously, she's showed no interest at all in seeking me out around
the house. She's not been getting any less hands-on time than usual
recently, so I doubt that she's attention-starved. This is just a change in
what has been her "normal routine" so naturally it arouses my curiosity.

I did notice that many of the new feathers that she's been growing out [she
started a moulting cycle about 2 weeks ago] have split open at the ends and
are starting to fan out. Maybe she's not so irritated from moulting now and
is feeling more sociable.

Today we are working on not nipping my ears too hard... she's preening me
more vigorously than usual and when that beak hits the ears, she can get
just a bit over zealous and give quite a painful nip on the ear. If I ever
had worries about hair starting to grow out of my ears as I age, those
worries should be over... she'll pluck any stray hairs that aren't on my
head. LOL. She's even getting really good at grooming my beard the same
way she grooms out her tail feathers.

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Chuck Chopp

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oldmolly - 05 Mar 2004 22:44 GMT

> > Are you not worried about the high protein levels in her diet? What
> > about all the salt you are giving her??
> > high fat and salt is a recipe for disaster and death in any bird. :0(
>
> What makes you think I'm using foods with a high sodium or fat content?

You mention that she has pork chop which is fatty, and ketchup which is
very high in salt. I assumed that you used salt in your cooking too.

> I
> am a knowledgeable cook, an informed purchaser of food ingredients and I
> cook all my meals from scratch.

same here.

>I'm well aware of the sodium & fat contents

> of pre-prepared foods, many types of canned foods and other sorts of "boxed"
> mixes.

And ketchup?

>I get recipes from a "heart smart" cook book, or else I simply make
> informed choices in the ingredients that I use in other recipes to keep the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The au gratin potatoes are made using 2% skim milk [lactose free, too], a
> minimal amount of low fat skim milk cheese, and, again, no added salt.

but cheese is fatty and contains relatively high amounts of sodium.

> The green beans were frozen, but have no salt added during processing by the
> food packaging company and no salt or butter added during preparation in the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> them before they are cooked. A non-fat cooking spray is used on the griddle
> and a sodium-free seasoning is used on it while it is being cooked.

Containing? Monosodium glutomate and other nasties?

> Now, as for portion sizes, we're talking about 1 to 2 teaspoons of meat that
> has been cut/minced into very small pieces, whether it be pork chop or
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> you are the sole-single authority on everything; that's just arrogant and
> conceited, and it gets pretty damned irritating, too.

So sorry I didn't reply exactly as you wished, but tried to warn a
relative newbie to the dangers of some people foods. In future perhaps
you could tell me and others what you would wish us to say in reply to
you.
You certainly display a fine example of arrogance in your high handed
reply to my concerns.

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Chuck Chopp - 06 Mar 2004 00:00 GMT

> You mention that she has pork chop which is fatty, and ketchup which is
> very high in salt. I assumed that you used salt in your cooking too.

Actually center-cut boneless pork chops are a very lean cut of pork; they
are not marbled through with fat in the way that pork roasts are and they
don't have the sodium content of a cured pork product. My father had heart
bypass surgery about 16 months ago, and I paid careful attention to what's
on & off of his list of acceptable foods, and if the American Heart Society
and his heart surgeon both agreed that 4 pork lean pork chops per month were
OK, then I suspect that 1 to 2 teaspoons per month is not going to represent
a significant dietary risk to Fruit Loop.

On the subject of protein, I read the following in a book that specifically
discusses the dietary requirements and feeding of macaws

"Macaws in the wild will consume animal protein should a carcass be
available. They have also been observed actually catching lizards and even
small mammals occasionally to supplement their diet, particularly while
rearing offspring. Captive macaws should receive a suitable amount of
protein from their diet if a good quality pellet food is included in their
daily food mixture. Some owners still like to give their birds occasional
pieces of meat, which are usually enjoyed by the birds. Any meat cooked in
oil should bd avoided, but lean, cooked meat and poultry make a welcome
treat on an occasional basis. No raw meat should be given because of the
risk of bacterial contamination."

The book goes on to state the following about pellet foods:

"The main brands of commercial pellet food are now avaialble with different
levels of fat content. Higher-fat pellets are usually used for all macaw
species, particularly for the Hyacinthine macaw. Pellet food products, with
highe rfat level designed specifically for macaws, are highly recommended to
constitute a large proportion of a pet macaw's diet."

I use a mixture of ZuPreem and Kay-Tee branded "fruity" pebbles/pellets as
part of Fruit Loops' daily diet. Her total consumption of lean beef, pork
and chicken [suitably prepared] probably totals out at about 4 to 6
teaspoons in a week, compared to the 5 to 7 cups of pellets that she
consumes each week. Based on what I read, this falls into the realm of
dietary treats that are not harmful and are very much enjoyed by Fruit Loop.

> And ketchup?

Ah, here's the fun part.... My mother has Celiac disease, meaning that she
becomes violently ill if she consumes anything containing wheat gluten.
That rules out the entire wheat, buckwheat, oats and barley family, leaving
only corn, rice and various bean flours. Add in lactose intolerance and
violent allergic reactions to monsodium glutamate and FDA Blue #2, Blue #10
and Red #40 food dyes. All of this sums up to having to having to cook all
meals from fresh ingredients and using *nothing* that contains any of the
things that she's allergic to. Given that she developed all of these food
allergies before I was of an age to learn to cook, and that she went back to
work outside the home full time when I was 11, I ended up cooking dinner
for the family 5 days a week for at least 2 full school years. The end
result of all this is that I know how to cook while keeping food allergies
and nutritional requirements in mind. Also, I'm incredibly sensitive to the
concerns arising from food allergies as I've seen how a simple glass of milk
can cause a 3 day migraine, or how rubbing pink [e.g. Red #40] Calamine
lotion on a rash can result in a complete head-to-toe rash over the whole
body. Yikes!

As this pertains to ketchup, my mother has quite a list of food
manufacturers who provide specialty foods for people with special dietary
needs. I often make use of what I've learned from her as I myself am
genetically pre-disposed towards developing some of the same food related
allergies & intolerances that she has. Now, although neither one of us has
had a problem with ketchup, quite often the commerically available varieties
of ketchup do taste far too sweet and definitely have too much sodium in
them. Fortunately, there are varieties available in health food stores and
via mail order that are made w/o significant amounts of those ingredients.

Now, after a quick trip to the store, regular Heinz ketchup has 190 mg of
sodium / tablespoon. Hunts Tomato paste has only 42.5 mg of sodium /
tablespoon. The organically grown & produced ketchup only has 35 mg of
sodium / tablespoon. After quick check of the portion that Fruit Loop gets
in a month, she's getting at most 2 teaspoons of ketchup if she were to eat
4 tater tots in a month, we'll call it about 23 mg of sodium in a month
contributed to her diet via ketchup.

> but cheese is fatty and contains relatively high amounts of sodium.

Same as above, you can get cheeses that are reduced in both fat and sodium,
and I'm not talking about feeding slices or cubes of cheese to Fruit Loop at
all, nor supplementing her diet with cheese on a regular basis. Considering
one slice of au gratin potato, served one time in the past month [and which
she hardly touched], again, I don't see her being at risk.

> Containing? Monosodium glutomate and other nasties?

LOL. What sort of cooking sprays are you using?

I dealt with the MSG issue above. Don't touch the stuff myself for obvious
reasons.

I just checked the ingredients on the spray I use. It has 0 calories, zero
fat, zero sodium, zero cholesterol, zero carbohydrates and zero protein. It
contains a trace amount of alcohol from corn, which evaporates immediately
upon being heated and it contains lecithin from soybeans. Last I checked,
soybeans were were on the approved list of foods for Macaws, so the lecithin
extraced from the soybeans should not be an issue.

> So sorry I didn't reply exactly as you wished, but tried to warn a
> relative newbie to the dangers of some people foods. In future perhaps
> you could tell me and others what you would wish us to say in reply to
> you.
> You certainly display a fine example of arrogance in your high handed
> reply to my concerns.

You have my apologies if I took your posting the wrong way. It came across
as an attack on my food selection and preparation methods, which is
something that I'm extremely senstive to based on my own experiences in
life, as well coming across as attack on my understanding of Fruit Loop
should or shouldn't be eating. I certainly wouldn't make the mistaking
bringing an animal into my home if I wasn't prepared to feed it and care for
it properly.

In some ways, I'm the kind of person who won't take a trip to the bathroom
w/o having first scheduled it, and, being very methodical, I tend to
research things quite a bit before hand diving into them. After having
spent nearly 4 months simply reading this news group and only having been
posting here for the last month, along with having done numerous Google
searches of the Usenet archives to research the posting histories of various
people who frequent this news group, I've come to realization that you in
particular come across as being extremely quick to be critical, more than a
little harsh in your treatment of people here and generally abrasive towards
anybody who disagres with you. Given that history behind many of your
postings and the nature of your reply to my inquiry, I responded in kind.
In the future, I won't allow myself to indulge in that practice again and
will simply ignore it. You score a point for having "gotten my goat", but
the goat is in a pen now. LOL.

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Chuck Chopp

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Toucanldy - 06 Mar 2004 00:38 GMT

>From: Chuck Chopp ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com

>I use a mixture of ZuPreem and Kay-Tee branded "fruity" pebbles/pellets as
>part of Fruit Loops' daily diet.

Here is a site that compares pellet manufacturers.
http://www.artemisaviary.com/pellet.html

Regards

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Chuck Chopp - 06 Mar 2004 03:13 GMT

>>From: Chuck Chopp ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Here is a site that compares pellet manufacturers.
> http://www.artemisaviary.com/pellet.html

Thanks. That gets the bookmark-worthy URL of the week award. I note that
their table of information only shows the sizes & formulations for
cockatiels and lovebirds. For grins, I'll compare the label on my ZuPreem
Avian Maintenance for Large Parrots with the information presented for the
smaller birds to see what the difference is. I'd like to see a similar
compilation for feeds for large parrots.

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Kimberlee - 06 Mar 2004 00:59 GMT

Chuck,
You are an eloquent writer.
The goat wasn't all that bad, either!
~Kimberlee

: > You mention that she has pork chop which is fatty, and ketchup which is
: > very high in salt. I assumed that you used salt in your cooking too.
[quoted text clipped - 126 lines]
: will simply ignore it. You score a point for having "gotten my goat", but
: the goat is in a pen now. LOL.

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oldmolly - 06 Mar 2004 20:18 GMT

> > You mention that she has pork chop which is fatty, and ketchup which is
> > very high in salt. I assumed that you used salt in your cooking too.
[quoted text clipped - 126 lines]
> will simply ignore it. You score a point for having "gotten my goat", but
> the goat is in a pen now. LOL.

Thanks for the clarification. In my defence though it wasn't clear in
your original post that you used special dietry things because of family
health problems, and someone less careful reading your post might just
have given the bird the usual run of the mill ketchups, pork, cheese etc
which could be a recipe for disaster.
I personally don't use much in the way of coatings etc and rarely eat
tinned or ready made foods, preferring to buy locally produced fruit and
veg and meat and cook from scratch. I also don't use salt in my cooking
and my birds enjoy some of my people food, mainly boiled potatoes,
chicken bones etc occasionally. I don't use spray on stuff. If I fry
something, I use good old healthy extra virgin olive oil.

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Alex Clayton - 05 Mar 2004 19:40 GMT

Yes it's good thing, although at times it can drive you nuts. When we first
got our Macaw he was afraid to climb down to the floor from his cage. I used
a short ladder leaned against it to encourage him. Then after a while he no
longer needed that. Now at times it's a battle of wills, when he is let out,
but will NOT stay on his damn cage!!! <VBG>
He a while ago learned how to get on the kitchen counter. He found that he
could pull the bottom drawer out an inch, then climb to the next, and so on
till he had a ladder. Some times it takes 20 times putting him back on his
cage along with threats to lock him up, to get him to stay there long enough
for me to get his food ready, or if we are cooking, to get it done so he can
have some.
As to the heath issues, sounds like you're doing fine. Our (Avian) Vet
said this is good for the bird, as long as it's done as a treat, not as the
staple of the birds diet. We use pellets, nuts, beans and fruit as his main
diet. The people food is a small part of what he eats, and the Vet thinks
this is great.

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"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."
[Lazarus Long]

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Pet Forum / Birds / Birds / March 2004

I think Fruit Loop is getting "comfy"