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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Cichlids / February 2005yellow lab
I have a 26g now with two keyholes, a golden ram, a few serpae tetras, rasboras and one yellow. I had two but one died a few weeks ago. Most are juveniles. I'd like to get another lab for a "buddy". First of all do I need another one(not interested in breeding), or will this one be happy with it's tank companions. Was pretty shy, but is now joining in with the others. I think I have a female. If I did get a male will it upset the "ambiance" of my tank? TIA Larry Those fish shouldn't be mixed together!!!!!!!!!! TOTALLY different water requirements!!!! Aswell as diet.  SignatureCraig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com >I have a 26g now with two keyholes, a golden ram, a few serpae tetras, > rasboras and one yellow. I had two but one died a few weeks ago. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Larry > Those fish shouldn't be mixed together!!!!!!!!!! TOTALLY different water > requirements!!!! Aswell as diet. "Larry" <klkm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message >>I have a 26g now with two keyholes, a golden ram, a few serpae tetras, >> rasboras and one yellow. I had two but one died a few weeks ago. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> TIA Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my newsreader. True, yellow labs prefer hard water, and the rest of the fish soft. But you're wrong about foods. Yellow labs are insectivorous open-water fish so will be fine on the same diet as rams and keyholes. And why holler uselessly about an established tank? Larry, First, you might see if you can figure why your yellow lab died. You may have soft or acidic water which great for all your fish except the yellow lab. If your water is at or below pH 7, I wouldn't add another lab. You can try adding a male to your tank. It shouldn't be a problem while the fish are small, However, expect some chaos if the labs decide to breed despite your intents. They're mouthbrooders so they don't wreak quite as much havoc as other mbuna but they do get aggressive nonetheless. Cichlids don't generally need a "buddy" though. They are quite happy as the king or queen of their own tiny little world. And you don't have to worry about a lone lab pairing up and breeding. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< Hi Elaine, >Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my >newsreader. Love your style ;-} <snip> >Cichlids don't generally need a "buddy" though. They are quite happy as >the king or queen of their own tiny little world. And you don't have to >worry about a lone lab pairing up and breeding. I was going to ask Craig where I made mistake but decided to check out the specs on the fish. Most seemed compatible with my soft water- ph about 7.5-8. Specs said all my fish would eat almost anything so I just left it at that. You are right about the lab and soft water. Hope he/she adjusts. Maybe I can ask you or others about food selection. Right now I mixed some veggie flakes, tetra mix type flakes and a pinch of dried blood worms for each small meal. Any other suggestions? Thanks Elaine and others who might help me on the food thing. All the best, Larry Ontario ">>Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my >>newsreader. " This I don't quite understand, but anyway. Labidochromis caeruleus (Electric Yellow) likes hard alkaline water around 76-82 degrees with a ph of at least 8 but preferably 8.2. It is really not a good idea to play around with a fish's PH. Most people don't understand how PH scale works. The pH scale runs from 0 (acidic) to 14 (alkaline), with neutral pH 7 in the middle. The pH scale is logarithmic, which means, for example, that pH 5 is ten times more acidic than pH 6. So by taking a fish that likes 8.2 & placing it in a tank with a Ph of 7 or 7.5 you are basically placing it in water that is 10X more acidic than they are supposed to be in. How would you like that. Also in the wild they live between 6 to 120 feet where they feed on mostly insects & snails. So feeding them a traditional tropical fish diet is not great. I did not mean to sound crass before but I think people should provide the proper environment for their fish if they are going to keep them. Craig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com > Hi Elaine, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Larry > Ontario > ">>Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I did not mean to sound crass before but I think people should provide the > proper environment for their fish if they are going to keep them. The tradition on usenet is to post at the bottom of the previous message. It happens that some newsreaders don't even handle messages posted above the previous one very well. I had to cut and paste by hand into Thunderbird to reply to your previous post. First, one has to ask what the proper environment is for a tank-raised fish that is probably many generations away from the wild fish. That fish may have been tapwater pH for all its life - there's no way of knowing. As for diet, I bet that Larry's fish was raised on prepared foods. Insects and snails as a natural diet means it can be kept on a normal or high-protein flake with maybe freeze-dried or frozen bloodworms as a treat. Tetras, rams and keyholes will do fine on a similar diet. As for pH, fish can adapt pretty well to changes. Yes, there are 10-fold changes for each step on the scale, but near neutrality you're talking about a shift in protons from 10^-7 M to 10^-8 M. There are many other things in tankwater that can mess with a fish faster than pH in the range of about 6.5-8. Now, I'm with you that fish kept at pH ranges, temperature, hardness, etc. near what they are found in in the wild can live longer and stay healthier. However, I've read a million stories on this NG of fish thriving and even breeding in conditions you would never think could possibly work. Also, the rift lakes are unusual in their stability. Most streams and rivers where FW fish are found vary seasonally in hardness, pH, temperature, food availability, and probably a half-dozen things I haven't even though of. Anyway, once someone has purchased a fish and has it in the tank, I believe that providing concrete suggestions for the particular situation in the tank is the most help in improving fishkeepers' skill and fishes lives. Thus, my reaction to your first post. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< Question on chemistry . . . if pH 7 is neutral (neither acidic or alkaline) and pH 8 is 10x more alkaline 10 X 0(neutral) = 0 back to reality (just saying 10X is not really our experience of the log scale of pH) a pH between 6.5 and 7.5 hardly affects the biology my experience is that a consistent pH is far mor important (for fresh water) than being "right on the number" > ">>Such a helpful post from Cray. And even top-posted to break my > >>newsreader. " [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Larry > > Ontario <snip> > I was going to ask Craig where I made mistake but decided to check out > the specs on the fish. Most seemed compatible with my soft water- ph [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > some veggie flakes, tetra mix type flakes and a pinch of dried blood > worms for each small meal. Any other suggestions? pH 7.5 to 8 doesn't sound so soft to me. Do you get any residue in your shower or on drinking glasses? You might ask your LFS if they've tested the local tap water and whether it's soft or hard. I'm not sure you should be feeding the algae flakes, but I'm curious to hear what others think. You didn't mention any algae eating fish in your first post. I'm sure your fish relish the dried bloodworms and they're great for insectivores like your yellow lab. I generally maintain all the fish you did mention on TetraMin and/or OSI freshwater flakes with treats of frozen blooworms. I also like Tetra ColorBits for midwater feeders like keyholes and rams. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< >pH 7.5 to 8 doesn't sound so soft to me. Do you get any residue in your >shower or on drinking glasses? You might ask your LFS if they've tested [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >your first post. I'm sure your fish relish the dried bloodworms and >they're great for insectivores like your yellow lab. <snip> Thanks Elaine, Played chemist (my wife thought maybe vacuuming the house would have been a better use of my time), and here are my specs. ph 8.0 GH <1 KH 11 I have soft water because of the water softener attachment if that explains anything. I have no algae eaters yet. Two corys though. LFS sold me the veggie flakes (not sure why). I'll discontinue them. Fish seem to prefer the coloured ones anyway ;-} All the best, Larry Ontario If it's HBH 8 veggie flake then it's a perfectly fine food for them, mine thrive on it intersperces with outher foods of course. I'd be more cautious about the bloodworm though I guess an insectivore might be less susceptible to the problems other rift lake cichlids can have with them. My water is also soft(ish) but with a high pH, as is lake Malawi, where the labs come from originally, so long as there's enough kH to keep things stable then I think you should be OK, some salt added and some marble or coral crush substrate would make it a bit harder which wouldn't hurt from where your water is right now. My real concern is the 26 gallon part, I know there' anecdotal evidence that labs are ok in smaller tanks but mine were pretty agressive even in thier 55G and didn't settle (read stop killing each other) till they got into the 7 x 2 x2. However I did have a dispopoortionate amount of male fish which would definately make them meaner. I still fear that even being the only of it's kind once it gets bigger other fish might find thier buttocks being handed to them. a comment on live food I raise snails in all my tanks. Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS) are the best for not messing with my live plants. RamsHorn are best in an unplanted tank (or a tank wiuth javamoss which grows faster than anything can eat it) I daily crush a few snails against the glass as a "live food" treat for my fish. Because it is raised in the tank it is gauranteed to have no foreign parasites or diseases. Clown loaches seem to eventually get all snails but MTS weather loaches let a few RamsHorn live, but not overpopulate the tank. > If it's HBH 8 veggie flake then it's a perfectly fine food for them, mine > thrive on it intersperces with outher foods of course. I'd be more cautious [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I still fear that even being the only of it's kind once it gets bigger other > fish might find thier buttocks being handed to them. OT why does top posting matter? I hate having to scroll down to find the reply to the post i just read . . . top posting lets me read in sequence . . . I've always wondered why people make such a big deal about it. <friendly_mudflinging> > why does top posting matter? See below ;) > I hate having to scroll down to find the reply to the post i just read . . . I hate having to scroll down, reading everything in my path just to know what people are responding to > top posting lets me read in sequence . . . not top posting lets you (and everyone else) know -exactly- what you're commenting on, without having to cross reference to 10'ish odd posts below. </friendly_mudflinging> > I've always wondered why people make such a big deal about it. hope this explained it - atleast in part. /Tommi Labs are insectivorous(spelling?)? Everything I read said they need a diet that consists mostly of vegetable matter. I have 5 in a 29 with a pleco, and have been feeding them cichlid pelets for ages. I recently switched from them to using mostly crushed up algae disks (which say the main ingredient is Spirulina) and they started breeding. I would agree with what I read and argue that a diet low in protein and high in vegetable matter is better for labs. I have also read that a lot of protein in a Yellow Lab's diet will cause it to catch the untreatable and often fatal Malawi bloat. Larry, you might consider a softened leaf of lettuce at least once in a while. If you can weight it to get it down to the lab, I'm sure she (which she is sure to be if she isn't showing any black) will really appreciate it. I agree that a male would be a good addition to your tank, but don't expect them to breed with a pH of seven. They really should have a higher pH, and in the long run I don't know what the low pH and hardness your rams require is going to do to their immune system. I hope the best for you, but let me go on the record as agreeing that you probably should not be keeping the labs in those kind of conditions. They are really cool fish, and I would suggest setting up a 29 with some slate and coral sand for substrate, and they will more than likely breed. My lab tank that I have set up like that is my favorite of all of them that I have. Good luck with your fish. http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums > Labs are insectivorous(spelling?)? Everything I read said they need a > diet that consists mostly of vegetable matter. I have 5 in a 29 with a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > (which she is sure to be if she isn't showing any black) will really > appreciate it. I wonder why the books say insectivore since yours are obviously omnivores and require algae? How confusing. Thanks for posting better diet info. I was guessing based on the protein level in an insect-only diet. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< My yellows showed no signs of bloat when pseudotropheus species were dropping all around them, I keep mine with haps now and the diet has them spawning constantly. What books said they are insectivores? I could be wrong-I don't feed them exclusively vegetable matter(I feed spirulina one day, off brand "Cichlid Pellets" the next, and a tropical flake food once in a while). They didn't start breeding until the spriulina though...that may point to something. I am going to do some more research on it when I get a chance- I did all my electric yellow research when I was still really new to all of this, and may just remember wrong. http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums > What books said they are insectivores? I could be wrong-I don't feed > them exclusively vegetable matter(I feed spirulina one day, off brand [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I did all my electric yellow research when I was still really new to all > of this, and may just remember wrong. A Fishkeepers Guide to African Cichlids by Paul Loiselle lists all Labidochromis spp. as micropredators and says to feed high-protein foods. He doesn't address the yellow lab specifically. Then I found this listing on the web and figured Loiselle was right about the specific species. http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/caeruleu.htm Once I read your post, I looked harder and found other articles that say omnivore. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php is by far the best article I have found and explains the interesting history of the fish in the aquarium trade. I think our best info by far is your fish breeding after being fed spirulina. I'll take that over anything on the web or in a book! Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< wrote: > A Fishkeepers Guide to African Cichlids by Paul Loiselle lists all Labidochromis spp. as > micropredators and says to feed high-protein foods. He doesn't address the yellow lab specifically. > Then I found this listing on the web and figured Loiselle was right about the specific species. > http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/caeruleu.htm > Once I read your post, I looked harder and found other articles that say > omnivore. http://www.cichlid- forum.com/articles/l_caeruleus.php is by > far the best article I have found and explains the interesting history > of the fish in the aquarium trade. > I think our best info by far is your fish breeding after being fed > spirulina. I'll take that over anything on the web or in a book! Elaine T wrote: I did some more looking into this, and read somewhere that many fish that are considered insectivores are really more opportunistic in the wild than anything. While labs undoubtebly eat insects in the wild, they don't often have the chance. Just a thought... I am glad that I started with the spirulina though. The effects have been great. http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums :) Ok this is not on the main topic. However after reading the posts, :and noting the relationship of fish in the wildand what they eat. I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] :basing my opinion on many post I have read, and my experence with my :own fishkeeping. http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums Actually many species of pleco's in the wild change diet depending on their age. When they are small they eat mostly vegetation because they can easily find it & it will sustain them. When they get larger they tend to switch to meat due to the fact its hard to sustain a larger body with just veggies. That's why a lot of aquarium plecos switch to going after fish or eating meat when older. Most large pleco don't even bother eating algae. SignatureCraig ________________________________ www.CanadianCray.tk www.Bluecrayfish.com > :) Ok this is not on the main topic. However after reading the posts, > :and noting the relationship of fish in the wildand what they eat. I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Posted via CichlidFish.com > http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums :D It is funny to watch, they sort of suck it in, they will get a peice, be it on the top of the water, (when they do this, they actually swim upside down, and grab the peice on the surface from underneath) or one that floated to the bottom. They just take in there mouth, and sort of suck it to nothing. If I hadn't seen it, I would never belive it! http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums Yeah, this is a bit off-topic, but interesting none-the-less. Your pleco likes meat better than spirulina?:eek: Thats hillarious!!! I didn't know they could even eat meat. Well, ya learn something new every day. Just more proof that the important part in feeding fish is researching them and fullfilling what they need instead of whatever they'll eat best. Talk about an insane pleco, though! http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums wrote: > My yellows showed no signs of bloat when pseudotropheus species were > dropping all around them, I keep mine with haps now and the diet has > them spawning constantly. Really? Thats interesting. What are you > feeding (I don't know what typical Hap diet is...)? Mine wouldn't spawn > until they had a large vegetable staple in their diet. My real concern > is the 26 gallon part, I know there' anecdotal evidence that labs areok > in smaller tanks but mine were pretty agressive even in thier 55G I have > had no problem with keeping 6 of them in a 29. I suppose it really > depends upon temperment of an individual fish. I am always reading about > super aggressive fish (like red devils) that for some reason or another > aren't programmed to be killers and end up being kept easily in > community tanks. I guess the opposite could be true as well. I still > fear that even being the only of it's kind once it gets bigger other > fish might find thier buttocks being handed to them. I agree completely. However, you said the to add crushed coral to a tank with Rams in it...I've never kept Rams personally, but have looked into it. Everything I read about them says soft water and low pH, an entirely opposite set of water conditions that I read about keeping Labs in. My advice (and I hate to seem to be in direct confliction with what someone else said) would be to not change your water conditions at all for the sake of the Rams, Larry. Only remember that I have no personal experience with Rams. Maybe someone who has some experience with keeping rams in harder, higher pH conditions could reply and give Larry some advice about what to do. http://www.cichlidfish.com/portal/forums |
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