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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Cichlids / April 2004Skin Irritation
Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish. I've got two tanks that are fully cycled with ammonia and nitrites safely under control. Nitrates are also within acceptable range. Besides the water being a little hard and some variations on alkalinity, everything is pretty well within range. But while my fish look great, and behave and eat normally, I still see them occasionally flashing against decorations and sometimes doing some sort of shaking motion. I was just wondering if there is something else wrong with the water, or perhaps it is normal for this to happen from time to time with fish that are kept in an aquarium. Jonathan > Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jonathan First, most local wild caught bass, bluegill, sunfish, are all cichlids... just so you'll know.. Not sure what you have, but since they _ARE_ wild caught, they could have any possible pathogen allowed in nature.... I'd probably be curious to what water parameters they are used to... I'd get a local water sample and check it out, compare it to your water and see what's what.... Could be the nitrates that you think is ok... if you don't have plants, it's not ok.... acceptable range for you or acceptable range for them? Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down... not me, I"m still learning....  SignatureRedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!! ========================== 2003 TRX450ES 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... ========================== ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø is that better?? RedForeman, > Could be the nitrates that you think is ok... if you don't have plants, it's > not ok.... acceptable range for you or acceptable range for them? Previously, nitrites were through the roof as I tried to get the tank fully cycled with fish in it. During that time, they all looked and acted fine. Now nitrites show up as zero. I'm very confident that is not a problem at this stage. > Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down... not me, > I"m still learning.... I'll see if I can get some more accurate readings. Jonathan > > Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish. > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down... not me, > I"m still learning.... While my books are very old, they do list Sunfish as belonging to Centrarchidae family (not Cichlidae). North America has about 40 species. The common Sunfish we talk about come from the Lepomis and Mesogonistius Genus. My understanding is that fish like these migrated into marine conditions (a long time ago) to eventually become the cichlids we have now, scattered around most of the world, but then my books are old, but not that old ;~) It was just a technical point :o), I have nothing to add to Red's excellent advice. Signaturehttp://www.netmax.tk/ > > > Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish. > > > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > It was just a technical point :o), I have nothing to add to Red's > excellent advice. The classification is still correct, Netmax. Cichlids and Centrarchids are actually not even closely related. Their physical appearance is similar because they fill similar niches. You are also right about current thinkingof the origin of cichlids, they apparently were originally saltwater fishes that migrated into rivers, lakes etc. I believe that the marine damselfishes are the closest relatives to the cichlids. Saro RedForeman, > Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down... Okay, here are my water parameters: Ammonia: < 0.25 Nitrate: 40ppm Nitrite: 0ppm Hardess: 200ppm Total Alkalinity: 130ppm pH: 7.2 Note 1: Again, the fish appear healthy in every way except for an occassional skin irritation. Note 2: These measurements were done with test strips and so are estimates as far as I'm concerned. Note 3: The fish have all seen ammonia spikes > 1ppm and nitrite spikes > 10.0 showing no worse symptoms. In fact, the symptoms appear worse after water changes. I am using city water and my pipes are older. And, in case anyone's interested, my current tanks contain: Green Sunfish, Large Mouth Bass, Bluegill, and Black Crappies (White Bass, Perch, and possible a small Walleye to come). I have a 50 and 125 gallon tank--the water parameters are from my 125 gallon. Thanks. Jonathan > RedForeman, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Jonathan Other than your nitrates being perfect for a planted tank, I dont' think you even have a problem... Do you have plants? Have you tested your water from the tap?? Reason is, if your tap water is significanly different, you'll know it's IN the tank... If your tap water tests the same, then the reason it's worse in the tank is your starting out with waste water, and it only gets worse.... Another thought, unless it's an internal thing, like parasites, and sometimes wild fish can carry them and never be susceptible to any problems... then one day, it just flops over. My best guess would be, if it's a new tank, it's just adjusting... if it's an old tank, and there are NO other obvious signs, changes or reasons you could think of.. maybe it just had an itch, and had to scratch it... fish do feel.. SignatureRedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!! ========================== 2003 TRX450ES 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... ========================== ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø is that better?? RedForeman, > Other than your nitrates being perfect for a planted tank, I dont' think you > even have a problem... Do you have plants? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > NO other obvious signs, changes or reasons you could think of.. maybe it > just had an itch, and had to scratch it... fish do feel.. I do not have live plants in the tank. I didn't quite follow your comments about water being worse in the tank. There are no indications of parasites and all fish seem to have the problem equally. This tank is newer but I have an older one and things are pretty much the same. I guess I was just more curious of a more general question of if this is normal, or there is simply something bad in my water. I'll assume by the comments so far that you don't see this in your fish. I wonder if others with the type of fish I have see the same problem. Thanks. Jonathan Jonathan Wood wrote in message ... >RedForeman, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Jonathan My africans do this as well. It's not a normal thing though. having said that there is no one particular cause for the problem. some people say it is a result of a sudden change of water conditions, particularly hardness, but I don't really agree with that in my case. others say it is due to a large amount Iron and other heavy metals in the water, and others think that it's due to plain old nitrite and ammonia presence. parasites will certainly cause it, especially ich and flukes.. it's annoying and frustrating that I can't make the water conditions perfect for my fish. this is the treatment that I use on my tanks that seems to work for a while, but the fish tend to return to scratching after a while: 1. treat with an anti-parasite medication. 2. add activated carbon to your filtration to get rid of any nasty heavy metals etc in the water. 3. I add a product called "easy life filter fluid medium" that says it has 101 benefits, and it seems to make the fish a little happier. good luck, and if you find a new cause/cure please let me know. Paul, > My africans do this as well. It's not a normal thing though. having said > that there is no one particular cause for the problem. some people say it is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it's annoying and frustrating that I can't make the water conditions perfect > for my fish. Well, that's the type of info I was looking for: that it's not just me. I'm not 100% sure but they were talking about also putting flouride in the water here. My best guess at this point is that between the city water and the old pipes, it's something coming from the tap. I wish I had a well but I don't. I do treat the water for chlorin, etc. but it obviously can't remove everything. > this is the treatment that I use on my tanks that seems to work for a while, > but the fish tend to return to scratching after a while: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > good luck, and if you find a new cause/cure please let me know. I've got tons of filtration. As I indicated elsewhere, I'm hesitant to start throwing medication in the water until I feel more strongly that this is the problem. I haven't seen "easy life filter fluid medium." Perhaps I'll try and check that out. Thanks. Jonathan >problem. I haven't seen "easy life filter fluid medium." Perhaps I'll try >and check that out. It's very popular among some big breeders here in Brisbane Australia, suprised more folk on here haven't heard of it. it's a product from denmark I think.. do a search on google, it has a good web site. > RedForeman, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Jonathan ------------------------ A few comments: 1. You really want ammonia to be zero. If you have a chronic ammonia problem you probably do not have adequate biological filtration. Among other things chronic exposure to ammonia can cause a degradation of the gills functionality--leading to flashing and gasping. It may not be a skin problem, but a gill problem. Do your fish have crystal clear eyes? No small opaque or discolored spots? 2. Your nitrate is ok, but in a well maintained tank could easily be less. Chronic exposure to elevated (for your particular fish) nitrate levels is not good. Not sure what your particular fish want in terms of nitrate, though. 3. "Previously, nitrites were through the roof as I tried to get the tank fully cycled with fish in it. During that time, they all looked and acted fine. The fish have all seen ammonia spikes > 1ppm and nitrite spikes > 10.0." I assume you mean your current fish were in the tank during these spikes. These are some pretty poisonous conditions to put your fish through. This could quite easily have long term health effects (even if they lived through it ok at the time). Your fish (like you) have an immune system. If you continually overwork that system it will eventually break down, leading to a whole host of seemingly unrelated problems. 4. This is obvious, but often overlooked--do you have good temperature control? Adequately powered heater or chiller? You say you have "local wild fish." If they are temperate you probably need a chiller. Temperature and/or pH fluctuations are common causes of parasitic infections. BTW--medicate the tank as a last resort. Find and fix the underlying cause, and medication will become unnecessary. NaCl, > 1. You really want ammonia to be zero. If you have a chronic ammonia > problem you probably do not have adequate biological filtration. Among > other things chronic exposure to ammonia can cause a degradation of the > gills functionality--leading to flashing and gasping. It may not be a skin > problem, but a gill problem. Do your fish have crystal clear eyes? No > small opaque or discolored spots? Eyes look great (with the exception of a Black Crappie that suffered the cyclying of my very first tank and has a small spec in the middle of one eye). I have a 125g tank with two filters both rated at up to 150g. I figure I've got filtration up the wazoo. My filters even have those optional bags of stuff that is supposed to absorb ammonia. I find my ammonia strips quite hard to read. I can't really tell if I'm that much above zero or not. > 2. Your nitrate is ok, but in a well maintained tank could easily be less. > Chronic exposure to elevated (for your particular fish) nitrate levels is > not good. Not sure what your particular fish want in terms of nitrate, > though. The problem is that, as I indicated, they seem a lot more irriated whenever I do a water change. Even a 25% water change seems to get them more irriated. > I assume you mean your current fish were in the tank during these spikes. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > continually overwork that system it will eventually break down, leading to a > whole host of seemingly unrelated problems. Yes, I agree. That's why I stepped up the water changes (that seemed to irriate the fish even more). A few fish died in my first tank but the species I have left seem very hardy. > 4. This is obvious, but often overlooked--do you have good temperature > control? Adequately powered heater or chiller? You say you have "local > wild fish." If they are temperate you probably need a chiller. Temperature > and/or pH fluctuations are common causes of parasitic infections. No heater, no temperature control. Actually, I recently put a heater in my 50g and set it to about 70. Those fish seem to be doing fine. > BTW--medicate the tank as a last resort. Find and fix the underlying cause, > and medication will become unnecessary. Given how well the fish seem otherwise, I'm very far from adding any medication. Thanks. Jonathan > Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jonathan parasites are so common in wild caught fish that I would suspect perhaps gill flukes and recommend that you add some fluke tabs. Rick Rick, > parasites are so common in wild caught fish that I would suspect perhaps > gill flukes and recommend that you add some fluke tabs. I don't know, my feeling is that this is not the problem because it seems to effect all my fish, even in different tanks, similiarly. Also, I'm able to see very small and don't see any signs of parasites. I suppose it's possible that there is a parasite with no visible symptoms. I'll keep an eye out for that. But I'm hesitant to start throwing additional chemicals in there until I'm sure that's what I need. Thanks. Jonathan Wood > Rick, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jonathan Wood I suggest you remove the ammonia removers (and monitor to ensure the tank cycles with the bacteria instead), add activated carbon (and change it as needed, but not more than a 2 month interval), add Melafix (this is not a medication) or StressCoat, and add some plant matter such as driftwood and oak leaves (besides adding tannins, some types of minerals attach to them, naturally softening the water, about 1 dried leaf per 10g to start, then less). You are describing a skin irritant, which could be as simple as algae growing. It would be useful to know your pH, gH and kH. If your municipal water supply is deep wells, then large water changes might be bringing your level of dissolved gases up for a while until they dissipate. I don't know the symptoms of this, but it's an example where water changes can appear detrimental. You can safely age your water for a day or two to note any differences in the fish behaviour when it is added. Ideally your aged water would be aerated and filtered with activated carbon. To verify the presence of fluoride, check their teeth ;~) Signaturehttp://www.netmax.tk/ NetMax, > I suggest you remove the ammonia removers (and monitor to ensure the tank > cycles with the bacteria instead), add activated carbon (and change it as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > them, naturally softening the water, about 1 dried leaf per 10g to start, > then less). Could you clarify the reason why you'd remove the ammonia removers? I have activated carbon in each filter (tons of it, and the big tank is less than 2 months old). I put a lot of the equivelent of StressCoat (Proquatics Water Conditioner), and added quite a bit more when I saw the fish really irritated after my last water change. Driftwood? Really? How would I make sure it didn't contain harmful things? > You are describing a skin irritant, which could be as simple as algae > growing. It would be useful to know your pH, gH and kH. If your [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > activated carbon. To verify the presence of fluoride, check their teeth > ;~) This tank's a bit new for much algae (note that some of the fish had visible algea on them when I caught them). I've already listed my water parameters, including pH, although I'm not sure what gH and kH are. I have no ideas for a practical way to age 25-50 gallons of water. I do know that the symptons are worse after a major water change (40-50%) and subside somewhat after several days. Teeth all look good. :-) Thanks. Jonathan > NetMax, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Could you clarify the reason why you'd remove the ammonia removers? They are probably only active for a short period, they can only extract so much before the medium is used up and needs a recharge, usually a soaking of aquarium salt will recharge it. > I have activated carbon in each filter (tons of it, and the big tank > is less than 2 months old). I put a lot of the equivelent of > StressCoat (Proquatics Water Conditioner), and added quite a bit more > when I saw the fish really irritated after my last water change. Activated carbon can be ditched after the cycling process, but each time it's used should be new carbon, shoudl never be reused. After the pores of the carbon are full of the stuff it's pulled out, it can leech those toxins back into the tank, unbeknownst to you.... > Driftwood? Really? How would I make sure it didn't contain harmful > things? Soak, boil, dry, soak, boil, dry... It may still leach some tannins, but the boiling should render it benign. >> You are describing a skin irritant, which could be as simple as algae >> growing. It would be useful to know your pH, gH and kH. If your [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > This tank's a bit new for much algae (note that some of the fish had > visible algea on them when I caught them). Algae on the FISH??? OMG, that's almost funny... slow mover??? jk... > I've already listed my water parameters, including pH, although I'm > not sure what gH and kH are. I have no ideas for a practical way to > age 25-50 gallons of water. I do know that the symptons are worse > after a major water change (40-50%) and subside somewhat after > several days. A water change routine, IMO, shouldn't go over 25% monthly, and some would differ, which is ok... If they are polluters, of course more frequent water changes are better, as opposed to LARGE water changes over a long period. Reason is, your changing 50% of the water, different water, as opposed to only changing a small portion. If they were irritated at 50%, maybe back off to 25% water changes, but more frequently.... You can aerate your water by using a pump and bubbler, or a powerhead with an airline running out for air... You can use a rubbermaid container, trashcan, whatever will house 25-50g... FWIW, by your statements "worse after a major water change" keeps telling me that 1, it's still early in the tanks establishing, and even if you've finished the cycling... something is still bugging them.. 2, the water change is bringing in water they don't like... if it's not IN your tank, when you do the water change, you're bringing it in.... SignatureRedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!! ========================== 2003 TRX450ES 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... ========================== ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø is that better?? RedForeman, > They are probably only active for a short period, they can only extract so > much before the medium is used up and needs a recharge, usually a soaking of > aquarium salt will recharge it. Actually, I wasn't crazy about using them. But I already had some larger fish and knew I'd have to cycle the tank with them in. For this, they sounded perfect. I'll remove them over the next week or so. > Algae on the FISH??? OMG, that's almost funny... slow mover??? jk... The ones that had it were not fast movers but I don't know they were that slow. I just got them from a small pond that had algae on pretty much everything. > A water change routine, IMO, shouldn't go over 25% monthly, and some would > differ, which is ok... If they are polluters, of course more frequent water > changes are better, as opposed to LARGE water changes over a long period. > Reason is, your changing 50% of the water, different water, as opposed to > only changing a small portion. If they were irritated at 50%, maybe back > off to 25% water changes, but more frequently.... Yeah, I definitely need to cut back the amount of water per change as that was definitely making it worse. I read a book by a guy that changed 50% per week. But he also had a ready supply of well water. > You can aerate your water by using a pump and bubbler, or a powerhead with > an airline running out for air... You can use a rubbermaid container, > trashcan, whatever will house 25-50g... Do you think my water might not have enough oxygen in it? I have no bubbler or powerhead. But the guy at the LFS said my filter should be enough, and I put two of those filters on my tank. No sign that the fish's breathing is labored or that they're coming to the top for air. > FWIW, by your statements "worse after a major water change" keeps telling me > that 1, it's still early in the tanks establishing, and even if you've > finished the cycling... something is still bugging them.. 2, the water > change is bringing in water they don't like... if it's not IN your tank, > when you do the water change, you're bringing it in.... Well, again, it's definitely worse after a large water change. But it would appear that those changes are necessary. Thanks. Jonathan > Actually, I wasn't crazy about using them. But I already had some > larger fish and knew I'd have to cycle the tank with them in. For > this, they sounded perfect. I'll remove them over the next week or so. Good idea, they've been used up and are useless after 2-3 weeks... >> Algae on the FISH??? OMG, that's almost funny... slow mover??? jk... > > The ones that had it were not fast movers but I don't know they were > that slow. I just got them from a small pond that had algae on pretty > much everything. That explains it... I've seen algae on a snail, but a fish??? hahahaha!!!! >> A water change routine, IMO, shouldn't go over 25% monthly, and some >> would differ, which is ok... If they are polluters, of course more [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that was definitely making it worse. I read a book by a guy that > changed 50% per week. But he also had a ready supply of well water. Suggestion... every third day, take out 10-15%, until you get the water back in good shape, fish will be less stressed etc.... >> You can aerate your water by using a pump and bubbler, or a >> powerhead with an airline running out for air... You can use a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > enough, and I put two of those filters on my tank. No sign that the > fish's breathing is labored or that they're coming to the top for air. 1, they'll never gulp air, I don't believe, they're not labyrinth fishes like gouramis and bettas, they're the fish that can supplement their oxygen exchange with atmospheric air.... 2, if your filters are moving the water, and your surface is vented, there should be plenty of oxygen.. unless your canopy is sealed and your using a canister... you may think about just adding a powerhead in one corner with an airline attached for some surface aggitation....that will increase your oxygen intake for the water... >> FWIW, by your statements "worse after a major water change" keeps >> telling me that 1, it's still early in the tanks establishing, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Well, again, it's definitely worse after a large water change. But it > would appear that those changes are necessary. Honestly, it sounds like your underfiltered, or your stuck in a cycling process, where there is ammonia, there is trouble.. consider this, take out your ammonia bags, do a water change of 15-20% and then after 3 days, watch the fish to see if they flash anymore... then do a ammonia and nitrite test, all should be zero... then you can resume your normal 10-20% weekly water changes SignatureRedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!! ========================== 2003 TRX450ES 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... ========================== ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø is that better?? RedForeman, > Suggestion... every third day, take out 10-15%, until you get the water back > in good shape, fish will be less stressed etc.... Not really sure if I understand that. My fish seem until I put new water in. BTW, I just took out enough water to vacuum the gravel (about 15-20 gallons). This time, I replaced the water with a bucket, which I treated with dechlorinator before pouring into the tank. That's a small percentage of the 125 gallons the tank holds. Sure enough, although it wasn't too bad, my bluegill clamped his fins on and off for several minutes and my large mouth looked a bit agitated. After a while, they looked okay. I removed one of the packs that absorb ammonia, and I added bacteria starter (which seems to help). > 2, if your filters are moving the water, and your surface is vented, there > should be plenty of oxygen. Yup. > Honestly, it sounds like your underfiltered, or your stuck in a cycling > process, where there is ammonia, there is trouble.. consider this, take out > your ammonia bags, do a water change of 15-20% and then after 3 days, watch > the fish to see if they flash anymore... then do a ammonia and nitrite test, > all should be zero... then you can resume your normal 10-20% weekly water > changes Well, I've had fish in a tank with a big ammonia spike. All these fish handle it quite well (unfortunately, the perch, walleye, and white bass didn't handle it so well on my very first aquarium and they're no longer with us). Also, if it was ammonia, I'd expect them to get a bit of relief when I do a water change. Instead, they seem relieved when I don't! <g> Thanks. Jonathan I snipped the past post for space.... Ok, I'm really not an expert, just trying to help, so.... If these fish were wild caught, what was their water like??? They were probably 'born' in that water, so lets just guess that your water is 'better' than where they came from.... My first thought would be that there's something missing in your water, or something added*(not by you)* that _IS_ irritating them... what it is? Can't begin to answer that.... If these fish went thru an ammonia spike, they could already be damaged to the point that when you leave them alone, they adjust well... when you add water, they show signs of irritation... I can only deduce that it's IN your water, no matter of mixing will get rid of it, unless you get water from another source and compare the effects on them... Last but not least.... a tough one though... DOCs Disolved Organic Compounds... With 125g, I'd lean towards the thought that there isn't much DOC in the water, but since this is a relatively new tank, setup, etc... and not knowing the exact history, you might be spending more time and effort on chasing your water chemistry, and worrying that it's the water, when in fact it very well could be something that nobody's even touched yet.... With that being said, I wish I could help, but I'm probably overextending my knowledge as it is... I'm good with the basics, but your problem leaves me wondering myself... Good luck, keep in touch and don't lose hope, there are hundreds of ppl here, just not right this moment.... SignatureRedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!! ========================== 2003 TRX450ES 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... ========================== ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø is that better?? RedForeman, > If these fish were wild caught, what was their water like??? They were > probably 'born' in that water, so lets just guess that your water is > 'better' than where they came from.... My first thought would be that > there's something missing in your water, or something added*(not by you)* > that _IS_ irritating them... what it is? Can't begin to answer that.... It always amazes me how crappy the water some of these fish can live in. Then it was all the more surprising that they didn't like mine (of course, initially that was before I knew about ammonia, etc.). The green sunfish in particular are known for being able to live in very murky and polluted water. I'm all but convinced there is something in my water that they don't like. The obvious irritation just after water changes indicates to me this is the case. Flouride, rust, or something else--I just don't know. > Last but not least.... a tough one though... DOCs Disolved Organic > Compounds... With 125g, I'd lean towards the thought that there isn't much > DOC in the water, but since this is a relatively new tank, setup, etc... and > not knowing the exact history, you might be spending more time and effort on > chasing your water chemistry, and worrying that it's the water, when in fact > it very well could be something that nobody's even touched yet.... You know, when I did my last water change, one of my decorations smelled exactly like gasoline. The decoration was bought from PetSmart and I'd certainly expect it to be okay but I took it out just the same. I don't know if that's the type of thing you had in mind but I seriously doubt that was the problem. I've had the decoration a while, even in a smaller tank that didn't seem to bother the fish as much. Still, I'll probably keep it for a while just in case I can see any signs of improvement. > With that being said, I wish I could help, but I'm probably overextending my > knowledge as it is... I'm good with the basics, but your problem leaves me > wondering myself... Yeah, well, it's good to talk about it and get a few ideas flowing. In the end, I don't think anyone can say for sure what it is without some major testing of my water. Which makes me wonder what options I may have for a more thorough test. I'll continue to try some of the ideas discussed here and see if anything seems to make a difference. Thanks. Jonathan > NetMax, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Could you clarify the reason why you'd remove the ammonia removers? 'Cycling' the tank is the process where you establish the waste processing capability to be the same as your waste production. Ammonia removers are artificially skewing the process and in a very un-natural way (effectively in the beginning, and then with a reduced capability as the zeolite becomes saturated). Your bacteria are 'cycling' to your fish-load minus what the ammonia removers have stolen from the nitrogen chain. If the ammonia removers were really effective, they would prevent or significantly inhibit the tank from cycling properly. It's better to achieve your equilibrium without artificial props. > I have activated carbon in each filter (tons of it, and the big tank is less > than 2 months old). I put a lot of the equivelent of StressCoat (Proquatics > Water Conditioner), and added quite a bit more when I saw the fish really > irritated after my last water change. > > Driftwood? Really? How would I make sure it didn't contain harmful things? I'm going to have to start pointing to my site to save my poor typing and memory. Go here: http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/driftwood/driftwood.shtml > > You are describing a skin irritant, which could be as simple as algae > > growing. It would be useful to know your pH, gH and kH. If your [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > activated carbon. To verify the presence of fluoride, check their teeth > > ;~) Just seen your parameters. There isn't anything special happening there. Ammonia & nitrites should be zero. Anything measurement would indicate a tank which is not cycled, or is being prevented from cycling properly (ie: underfiltered or in your case, artifically altered by ammonia removers). > This tank's a bit new for much algae (note that some of the fish had visible > algea on them when I caught them). I'd be tempted to give them a salt bath. With a small container of lukewarm salty water, and a soft sponge, net each fish and rub the salty sponge along their sides from the head to the tail a few times. It might be some persistant microscopic bug hanging off them. > I've already listed my water parameters, including pH, although I'm not sure > what gH and kH are. I have no ideas for a practical way to age 25-50 gallons > of water. I do know that the symptons are worse after a major water change > (40-50%) and subside somewhat after several days. When you cannot age water, then do small water changes more often, to achieve the same change of volume with less stress. > Teeth all look good. :-) > > Thanks. > > Jonathan Good teeth are important ;~) Signaturehttp://www.netmax.tk/ NetMax, > 'Cycling' the tank is the process where you establish the waste > processing capability to be the same as your waste production. Ammonia [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > or significantly inhibit the tank from cycling properly. It's better to > achieve your equilibrium without artificial props. Right, but as I indicated elsewhere, I really had no choice but to cycle the tank with fish in it. For this, it sounded perfect as it would presumably reduce the ammonia spike. I planned on removing them after the tank was established and will probably do so in the next week or so. (BTW, I was able to demonstrate quite clearly that the ammonia removers are not really all that effective.) > I'm going to have to start pointing to my site to save my poor typing and > memory. Go here: > http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/driftwood/driftwood.shtml Interesting. I'll look into this. > Just seen your parameters. There isn't anything special happening there. I'm left wondering if there is something else in my tap water that I don't have a test for. > I'd be tempted to give them a salt bath. With a small container of > lukewarm salty water, and a soft sponge, net each fish and rub the salty > sponge along their sides from the head to the tail a few times. It might > be some persistant microscopic bug hanging off them. I've done this in the past. But only some of them had algae, and the irritation seems evenly distributed between all the individuals and the species. > When you cannot age water, then do small water changes more often, to > achieve the same change of volume with less stress. Yeah, that's probably one thing I will be doing. BTW, I haven't seen the symptoms as much for the past few days. Still more confirmation that it's worse after a water change. Thanks. Jonathan > Rick, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jonathan Wood I guess I missed that all fish even in different tanks have the same problem. I would suspect as others do a water issue. Without going back and reading all the posts, do you use a python or similar system and add water direct from the tap which you have used a dechlorinator on?. It may be a high concentration of dissolved gas in the water that is irritating them. I have 3 large plastic garbage bins (with 36 tanks that is not enough) that my waste water from my R/O system goes into. I use a bubbler and heater in those containers which keeps the temp. close to tank water but more importantly removes the gas and chlorine from the water. Possibly check with you water supplier to see if anything different has been added recently. Rick Rick, > I guess I missed that all fish even in different tanks have the same > problem. I would suspect as others do a water issue. Without going back and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > importantly removes the gas and chlorine from the water. Possibly check with > you water supplier to see if anything different has been added recently. Heh, yeah, I was hauling five gallon buckets downstairs for my 50 gallon. For my 125 gallon, I installed a sink downstairs and purchased a python system. I was concerned about not being able to treat the water before putting it in the tank. But I should point out that I have seen the same symptoms in the past when I put the dechlorinator in the bucket and let it sit a few minutes before pouring it into the tank. Yeah, I definitely worried about something in the water that I can't measure. But it's not a matter of what may have been added to the water recently as the problem has existed ever since my first fish. I will consider the possibility of buying a plastic garbage bin though. I should have no trouble storing the water needed for a 25-50% water change in it for a couple of days. Not sure what the R/O refers to. But I suspect I can find some way to transfer the water from the garbage bin to the tank. Thanks. Jonathan > I will consider the possibility of buying a plastic garbage bin > though. I should have no trouble storing the water needed for a > 25-50% water change in it for a couple of days. Not sure what the R/O > refers to. But I suspect I can find some way to transfer the water > from the garbage bin to the tank. R/O- reverse osmosis, pure water, no nothings in it... A mag pump could empty the 30g trash can in 1-2 minutes couldn't it??? I can't remember... SignatureRedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!! ========================== 2003 TRX450ES 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... ========================== ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø is that better?? RedForeman, > R/O- reverse osmosis, pure water, no nothings in it... Ahh. > A mag pump could empty the 30g trash can in 1-2 minutes couldn't it??? I > can't remember... Probably. More money to spend eh.... Thanks. Jonathan > RedForeman, >> A mag pump could empty the 30g trash can in 1-2 minutes couldn't >> it??? I can't remember... > > Probably. More money to spend eh.... There are smaller pumps that don't cost much, but for your volume, unless you want to spend 45m watching.... the $$ equates to speed.... SignatureRedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!! ========================== 2003 TRX450ES 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... ========================== ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø is that better?? |
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