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Pet Forum / Birds / Parrots / March 2004Feather Plucking Tiel
Hello all, I have a male tiel that I have owned since he was an egg. He lives a very pampered life. His cage IF you can call it that is really large enough to be an aviary for a small-to-moderate sized flock of tiels. He has all of the freedom and toys that any tiel could ever want. As well as having a wide variety of fresh fruits/veggies and a seed/pelet diet. I have his cage/aviary setup in the following fashion. He has AMPLE perches none of which are arranged in such a fashion as to cause damage to his tail feathers, and the upper most perches give him at least two inches of clearance between him and the top of the cage/aviary. I have feeding stations located throughout his cage/aviary as well as one of the drinking systems that one hooks into the household plumbing and he has watering station also located throughout his cage/aviary. His cage/aviary is also planted with an assortment of bird/tiel friendly plants, bushes, trees, grasses. And any of the seeds that fall out of his food stations help to add to the plants that he has to nibble on. As well as having a waterfall, and small “stream/lake” that cycles through an active charcoal filter. I use NO chemicals of any sort to maintain the water in the waterfall/”stream/lake” and it is actually deep enough that I have been able to place some water plants and fish in it. I also keep the temperature of the water between 70 – 80 degrees F. And there is a place in the waterfall where he is able to perch and bathe, as well as having created pool that is shallow/deep enough for him to get into and bathe. I also keep the temperature in his room at a constant 75 degrees F. As well as modifying the windows so that when I close them at night that NO LIGHT whatsoever is able to come in from outside. I have also covered all of the windows in his room with hardware “cloth” so that he cannot chew through them when he is out of his cage/aviary (which he is when I am home). As well as doing the same for all of the other windows in my house (save that I do not have them modified so as to totally block out the outside light) I have however “modified” ALL exterior doors so that IF the outer door is open that the inner door CANNOT be opened so that he cannot escape when he is flying around. When I built his cage/aviary I did so, so that I would be able to go into it to clean it so I have about a 6” to a 1’ clearance when I standup in it. I rake the “grass” when I get up in the morning before I leave for work, as well as when I come home for lunch (I live close enough to where I work that I am able to go home for lunch) and again when I get home at the end of the day, and one last time before I go to bed. I also take a steam cleaner in to it once a week to steam clean his perches, cage/aviary walls. I have enough feed dishes that I am able to remove them all and clean the ones from the previous day and put a new set in. The problem is that about a week or so ago he has started to pluck his feathers. I have gone outside of his room and there isn’t anything out that there that could be causing him to be agitated. He is sees a fully qualified avian vet at least once a year. And has always gotten a clean bill of health. There are no “unwanted” insects in his cage/aviary as I am very careful NOT to leave the fresh food in his cage/aviary for more then an hour or so. And have chosen plants that naturally discourage insects, as well as using diatomaceous earth around the outside of his cage/aviary. Along with the waterfall I have a “shower” area setup inside of his cage/aviary that he can activate and take a shower under (which he loves doing) sometimes he even just goes over there and plays with it turning it on and off just to watch the water. I also give him plenty of toys with to chew and destroy and those that are not “destroyable” I rotate every couple of weeks. Before someone suggests that he might have gotten into the diatomaceous earth, he hasn’t as I would see signs of his either walking through it or it having been blown all over the place by his wings. Plus “his” door is located on top of the cage/aviary so that he can just land on top of it and enter it. His vet and I are both at a loss as to explain why he has started feather plucking does anyone have any constructive suggestions as to what could be causing his plucking??? I have been reading this Newsgroup for a while now and I have seen all of the backstabbing, name calling and abuse that seems to be the more common thread, but I still felt that I had to ask you all IF you had any idea as to why my now once beautiful bird has started to pluck his feathers. Should I give him a mate? He already has one nest box that he uses to sleep in. IF I did give him a mate should I add more nest boxes? John “Tiellover” Smith > Should I give him a mate? He already has one nest box that he uses > to sleep in. IF I did give him a mate should I add more nest boxes? Yes - I'll come live with him. His cage sounds nicer than my house ;-) Seriously, I wish I could offer advice for you - I'll just watch to see what the others say. My first (and probably incorrect) guess is that he's lonely/frustrated/bored. Even with so beautiful a house, he may just want companionship. The one thing I didn't see in your post was how much time you spend interacting with him? Cockatiels are social creatures and need interaction with a flock - you in this case. You're his flock/mate/buddy. Good luck, Mark | > Should I give him a mate? He already has one nest box that he uses | > to sleep in. IF I did give him a mate should I add more nest boxes? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | Good luck, | Mark Mark, I agree with you in that it seems that John has gone out of his way to give his 'tiel a VERY nice living environment. But from the steps that he has taken: hardware cloth on all of his windows, setting up all doors that lead outside so that there is an inner and outer door, and that both doors cannot be opened at the same time I would have to presume that when he is home that he spends as much time as is humanly possible with his 'tiel. And like you I wish that I could give him some advice, but I am at a lose as to explain why his 'tiel is plucking. DC > I agree with you in that it seems that John has gone out of his way to give > his 'tiel a VERY nice living environment. But from the steps that he has taken: > hardware cloth on all of his windows, setting up all doors that lead outside so > that there is an inner and outer door, and that both doors cannot be opened at > the same time I would have to presume that when he is home that he spends as > much time as is humanly possible with his 'tiel. You've presumed this, did you? I am looking at your other posts and I can see that you're trying a "kinder and gentler" approach here in a.p.p.c, but sometimes it's best not to presume anything. Let the original posters speak for themselves. Cheers, Mark | > I agree with you in that it seems that John has gone out of his way to | give [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] | Cheers, | Mark Mark, It is true that it isn't always safe to presume "facts not in evidence" but from all of the safeguards that he has taken. It seems to me that the only reason for going to "such" steps was to make his house as safe as humanly possible for his "non-"human child. Otherwise what's the point of having hardware cloth on ALL of his windows, and installing doors that only one at a time can be opened??? Unless he allows his bird to have the freedom of his home??? DC > It is true that it isn't always safe to presume "facts not in evidence" but > from all of the safeguards that he has taken. It seems to me that the only [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Unless he allows his bird to have the freedom of his home??? You've made very good points and you may or may not be correct. However, you're still speaking for the original poster. That was my point. Do you see this? Mark > > It is true that it isn't always safe to presume "facts not in > evidence" but [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Mark Mark, Yes, DC has made some presumtions but he happens to be right on the money. I've covered all my windows with hardware cloth as well as installing special doors so as to allow my tiel to be able to safely move about my house without having to worry that he might "accidently" escape. And after reading another thread that is currently in this newsgroup we've all seen what can happen if a bird that is unclipped gets out of it's owners house. The only reason I hadn't said anything is because he had presumed correctly. And I didn't see any need to "correct" him. And yes, he may not be one the more popular contributors to this newsgroup, but in the past he has given some tidbits of good advice, as well as emotional support to those dealing with a sick/injured/lost/deceased bird. And can anyone in this or any newsgroup say that all of the advice has always been the best for every person/situation? Just something to think about the next time before you start to rag on someone for voicing their opinions. John "Teillover" Smith > And yes, he may not be one the more popular contributors to this > newsgroup, but in the past he has given some tidbits of good advice, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > John "Teillover" Smith Hey, I had no quarrel with you... I think I've already made clear to you that I was trying to help you but that I needed more info. After you answered me, I told you again that I meant no offense to you - just trying to help. However, with that being said, I think that you've just stepped way off base here.... Either you're miffed because of comments made to you by others, or you're just generally angry, but you're stepping into a discussion where you really have no place - at least, until you come up to speed... As you've stated (but I've clipped for brevity), he had made an assumption. It was based on undisclosed data. The fact that you've gone to unbelievable lengths to create a perfect home for your bird, complete with every conceivable precaution to prevent injury under, I believe, danged-near every condition, it was not clear, and could not reasonably be assumed that you actually interacted with your bird. Let's be honest - a luxury flat like you've created is NOT the same thing as spending one-on-one time with your bird. Believe it or not, some people spare no expense making their birds safe and comfortable, yet have no idea that what the bird really wants is to sit on their shoulder and interact with them. I respect that you've now decided to take sides with him, for whatever personal reason, but it seems that you've missed the point as well... Are you not able to see that he made an assumption - one that did turn out to be correct - that could not have reasonably been made at the time? Do you see my point about why a luxury flat does not necessarily indicate that you actually interact with your bird? I did not "rag on him" for voicing an opinion. I ragged on him for voicing ~your~ opinion in response to my question... Do you see the difference???? Please re-read our dialog carefully... Please think about this the next time before you start to rag on someone who isn't even debating with you... Mark, I'm sorry if it sounded as if I was looking to get into a quarrel with you, I wasn't. It's just that when I was in school I was everyone's favorite "whipping boy" so at times I tend to take things a little more personally. As I can understand how it feels to be the "low-man" on the totem pole, the last one picked for teams in gym class, etc. And I didn't mean to make sounds as if I was accussing you personally of having any kind of a problem with him. It's just from going back and reading some of his old posts I can see where some might have a low opinion of him. Not to mention one person saying that he is dangerous and not to listen to him. Put yourself in his shoes for a moment, how would you feel if you were trying to help someone either with advice or moral support and people are passing judgement on you without really getting to know you? And if he is anything like I was in school he may not have too many friends either on-line or IRL. That said, I was remodeling my home and decided that while I was remodeling my home that I'd go ahead and make some "minor" modifications to my home so that I could make it as safe as I possibly could for my bird. And I agree that some reading my first few posts might have thought that I was fixing him up a nice fancy home so that I wouldn't have to interact with him. But that wasn't my intention. I've always enjoyed interacting with him and if I could I'd spend every waking minute with him. But bills have to be paid, and so to do that I have to work. And it is only during that time of the day that I cannot be with him that he is secured in his cage/aviary. John "Tiellover" Smith > Hey, I had no quarrel with you... I think I've already made clear to you > that I was trying to help you but that I needed more info. After you [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Please think about this the next time before you start to rag on someone who > isn't even debating with you... > I'm sorry if it sounded as if I was looking to get into a quarrel > with you, I wasn't. It's just that when I was in school I was > everyone's favorite "whipping boy" so at times I tend to take things a > little more personally. As I can understand how it feels to be the > "low-man" on the totem pole, the last one picked for teams in gym > class, etc. Well, I'm not picking on you or him. I was just irritated that he answered for you when I asked a question. Even in my many responses to him, I was matter-of-fact. I don't get nasty very often - and only if seriously provoked. Anyway, read my other posts and you'll see that I'm a nice guy. In particular, read the posts to newbies and those who are dealing with sick or lost birds. I do try to help, when I can :-) Mark Mark, I'm sorry if it sounded as if I was looking to get into a quarrel with you, I wasn't. It's just that when I was in school I was everyone's favorite "whipping boy" so at times I tend to take things a little more personally. As I can understand how it feels to be the "low-man" on the totem pole, the last one picked for teams in gym class, etc. And I didn't mean to make sounds as if I was accussing you personally of having any kind of a problem with him. It's just from going back and reading some of his old posts I can see where some might have a low opinion of him. Not to mention one person saying that he is dangerous and not to listen to him. Put yourself in his shoes for a moment, how would you feel if you were trying to help someone either with advice or moral support and people are passing judgement on you without really getting to know you? And if he is anything like I was in school he may not have too many friends either on-line or IRL. That said, I was remodeling my home and decided that while I was remodeling my home that I'd go ahead and make some "minor" modifications to my home so that I could make it as safe as I possibly could for my bird. And I agree that some reading my first few posts might have thought that I was fixing him up a nice fancy home so that I wouldn't have to interact with him. But that wasn't my intention. I've always enjoyed interacting with him and if I could I'd spend every waking minute with him. But bills have to be paid, and so to do that I have to work. And it is only during that time of the day that I cannot be with him that he is secured in his cage/aviary. John "Tiellover" Smith > Hey, I had no quarrel with you... I think I've already made clear to you > that I was trying to help you but that I needed more info. After you [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Please think about this the next time before you start to rag on someone who > isn't even debating with you... It's OK. There are many "nasties" here and a text only medium is not a very good medium for conveying emotions. Eg. Sarcasm especially never is understood without stating it is sarcasm. Mark N is one of the more even tempered participators here even though he has made his digs occasionally. Everybody cannot resist the temptation from time to time though. Another day is another day and usually all is forgiven in my book unless repeated attacked...LOL It can be very tough for newbies here as you will observe bird brain mentalities here and much flock behavior. How fitting for a 'tiel group huh? Welcome. > Mark, > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Please think about this the next time before you start to rag on someone who > > isn't even debating with you... > Mark, > > Yes, DC has made some presumtions but he happens to be right on > the money. I've covered all my windows with hardware cloth I have always wondered what 'hardware cloth' is. What is it and what is it made of? Yes Pam? Were you going to say something? > > Mark, > > > > Yes, DC has made some presumtions but he happens to be right on > > the money. I've covered all my windows with hardware cloth > I have always wondered what 'hardware cloth' is. > What is it and what is it made of? Oh. Ignore my other post - I see where you have written. I got confused with the >'s and how you just kept writing after his post. > > Mark, > > > > Yes, DC has made some presumtions but he happens to be right on > > the money. I've covered all my windows with hardware cloth > I have always wondered what 'hardware cloth' is. > What is it and what is it made of? > > Should I give him a mate? He already has one nest box that he uses > > to sleep in. IF I did give him a mate should I add more nest boxes? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Good luck, > Mark Mark, I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear in my first post. When I am home he spends as much time as he chooses hanging out with me. I have a "play tree" for him next to my chair in the livingroom. As well as perches in other rooms of the house that I am likely to be. The only excpetion to this being the kitchen where he is barred from going. I also do NOT use ANY Teflon or similar non-stick cookware just good old fashioned and WELL seasoned cast iron. IF I have an over night houseguest I tell them in no uncertain terms that they are NOT to bring ANY hair dryers, blowers, curlers, etc. with them. As they might contain Teflon, or a similar non-stick coating. Also to everyone else. In case you couldn't gather from my first posting, yes my/his normal vet has done all sorts of tests, both blood as well as on a couple of the feathers that he had plucked. He even refered me to a second vet over in the next county who uses a different lab then the one that my normal vet uses. And again all tests came back either negative, or "normal." And she is likewise at a loss to explain why my tiel has started to pluck his feathers. I've even had both of them over to inspect my house, and my tiels bird room, cage/aviary. They were both impressed with the size of the cage/aviary as well as the placing of the perches and the assortment of toys that were in the cage/aviary and the ones in reserve. They both agreed that it was NOT in all likely hood because of boredom as he has PLENTY of room to fly and play. As well as plenty of plants to chew on. And he DOES chew on all of his plants. I also know that I am not carrying any of the diatomaceous earth into his cage/aviary with me as I change my shoes before I enter. Just in case I came into contact with it. I'd forgotten to mention that he is now 5 years old, and until recently has never plucked. John "Teillover" Smith > I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear in my first post. When I am > home he spends as much time as he chooses hanging out with me. I have > a "play tree" for him next to my chair in the livingroom. As well as > perches in other rooms of the house that I am likely to be. The only > excpetion to this being the kitchen where he is barred from going. I wasn't making any accusations - please don't take offense. I was just probing a bit because I was uncertain. Anyway, since my question seems to have been answered, and since I can't think of anything else (sorry), I'll defer to the rest of the group :-) Good luck! Mark > Also to everyone else. In case you couldn't gather from my first > posting, yes my/his normal vet has done all sorts of tests, both blood > as well as on a couple of the feathers that he had plucked. He even > refered me to a second vet over in the next county who uses a > different lab then the one that my normal vet uses. And again all > tests came back either negative, or "normal." Well, we couldn't gather that from your original post because you never mentioned it (and my crystal ball is kinda foggy right now). You did mention that you take him to the vet regularly: " He is sees a fully qualified avian vet at least once a year. And has always gotten a clean bill of health." I read that and I think, ok... so he gets a check up at least once a year... but did they do any tests since he started plucking only a week ago? Next time you talk to your vet ask him specifically if he tested for giardia/pbfd/metal toxicity. And since false negative results for giardia are NOT uncommon, I'd make sure they do a second test. I stress the issue of the medical side of it, specially in cockatiels because in my personal experience, in the few cockatiels that I've seen that pluck their feathers, the only cause has been pathological and not social or psychological.  Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > > Also to everyone else. In case you couldn't gather from my first > > posting, yes my/his normal vet has done all sorts of tests, both blood [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > that pluck their feathers, the only cause has been pathological and not > social or psychological. Marco, I am sorry, if my including: “His vet and I are both at a loss as to explain why he has started feather plucking does anyone have any constructive suggestions as to what could be causing his plucking???” Didn’t let anyone reading my post know that I’ve taken him in to see his vet. Or that the vet would have ran a battery of tests. I think that I can safely rule out heavy metal toxins as his cage/aviary, is made out of brass, I only used non-rosin coated brass brazing rods in it’s construction. As well as washing it down thoroughly before I ever but my tiel into it. And as I have pointed out in my second posting, he has now been seen by two independent vets. Each of who use different labs to run their tests. And they are both at a loss to explain why my tiel has started plucking his feathers. As I have also said in my second posting, they’ve both have been out to my home and have inspected my house as well as his cage/aviary, the room that his cage/aviary is located in, the room where I store his food, take a water sample, a sample of the soil from the bottom his cage/aviary, samples of his feed. As I’ve said in the second posting they have run tests for just about everything that they can think. Including test (so they say) for diseases that are not usually found in tiels. And they are still at a loss as to why he has started plucking. John "Teillover" Smith > I think that I can safely rule out heavy metal toxins as his > cage/aviary, is made out of brass, I only used non-rosin coated brass > brazing rods in it’s construction. As well as washing it down > thoroughly before I ever but my tiel into it. "I've covered all my windows with hardware cloth as well" Is that brass hardware cloth too? So, you are ruling out metal toxicity without testing for it? That's not very smart, is it? Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > > I think that I can safely rule out heavy metal toxins as his > > cage/aviary, is made out of brass, I only used non-rosin coated brass [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So, you are ruling out metal toxicity without testing for it? > That's not very smart, is it? Marco, Considering that I've used brass throughout the house. And that the vet had already been out to inspect the setup prior to my putting my bird into his home, as well as that I used brass brazing rods that were not coated with rosin. Yes, I/we are both ruling out metal toxicity. As if it was metal toxicity wouldn't he have shown signs before now? In case anyone was curious as to why I've gone to such lengths for my bird. I was already set to do a major remodeling of my house. And figured that while I am remodeling my house, why not make it as bird safe as I possibly can. So to that end I instructed the contractor that I only wanted enviromentaly/bird safe products used. And that included going above what was needed in some circumstances, such as running all wiring be it electrical, computer, TV or phone (anything) that could carry any kind of a charge to be fed through PVC pipes. I know that a tiel isn't likely to chew far enough into a wall to get ahold of a wire that is running behind it, but I didn't want to take any chances. And who knows in the future I may get a larger bird that is capable of doing such damage. I felt it best to err on the side of caution, even if it cost me a little extra up front. My vet has also been to my home numerous times in the past to test my water (as I think I've mentioned before I have a well) as well as to just enjoy my feathered friends living arrangments. Because I'll admit that I/we usually spend more time in his room/cage/aviary. As with the waterfall, plants, fish, and everything it is much more relaxing enviroment. John "Tiellover" Smith > Marco, > > Considering that I've used brass throughout the house. And that > the vet had already been out to inspect the setup prior to my putting > my bird into his home, as well as that I used brass brazing rods that > were not coated with rosin. Well,given that brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, and zinc has been proven to cause toxicity in parrots I wouldn't be so sure about it safeness. > Yes, I/we are both ruling out metal > toxicity. Maybe you shouldn't. > As if it was metal toxicity wouldn't he have shown signs before now? Not necessarily. Metal toxicity could be acute or chronic. So, a bird could have elevated levels of, lets say zinc, on their system and not show symptoms. You might want to do some more reading on the brass issue... and you also might want to reconsider testing your bird again. http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/metals.htm http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww14eiii.htm http://www.holisticbirds.com/hbn03/autumn03/pages/linksaut03.htm Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo Sounds like overkill to me....but whatever makes you happy... I would be worried about the pond that is deep enough for fish to live in. This would also be deep enough for a Tiel to drown in... Maybe I haven't read the post properly, but is the pond secured so he can't drown? It might be unlikely, but possible.... > Considering that I've used brass throughout the house. And that > the vet had already been out to inspect the setup prior to my putting [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > room/cage/aviary. As with the waterfall, plants, fish, and everything > it is much more relaxing enviroment. > Sounds like overkill to me....but whatever makes you happy... > I would be worried about the pond that is deep enough for fish to live in. > This would also be deep enough for a Tiel to drown in... > Maybe I haven't read the post properly, but is the pond secured so he can't > drown? It might be unlikely, but possible.... Mark, Sorry, pond is really an overstatement. It's diameter is greater then it's depth. And the "fish" that I keep in it are guppies. So it isn't like they require vast amounts of water to live and thrive in. About the deepest part is by the waterfall where the circulating pump is, and I have that covered with poted and rocks that are always high and dry. And the opening is just big enough for the water from the waterfall to flow through, but not big enough from him to slip through. I watched him very carefully when I first put him into his cage/aviary to make sure that he wouldn't injure himself. He was very curious and spent the first week exploring his new enviroment. And he was like a kid in a candy store. So much so that I swear if he could have made his beak smile he would have. John "Tiellover" Smith Don't say that on the fish groups... I'm not even gonna say what I think of that. *button's lip* >And the "fish" that I keep in it are guppies. So it isn't like they require vast amounts of water to live and thrive in. > Don't say that on the fish groups... > I'm not even gonna say what I think of that. *button's lip* > > >And the "fish" that I keep in it are guppies. So it isn't like they > require vast amounts of water to live and thrive in. Mark, Didn't mean to suggest that Guppies weren't an important fish, I know some people who have been absolutly fanatical about their Guppies. It's just that these guppies that I got were in the feeder tank. . .So I got em "dirt" cheap. And I also figured they'd be usefull in my non-chemical approach to insect control. John "Tiellover" Smith > Because I'll admit that I/we usually spend more time in his > room/cage/aviary. As with the waterfall, plants, fish, and everything > it is much more relaxing enviroment. I wouldn't mind copying some of the features in this cage/aviary. Do you happen to have any photos ? > > Because I'll admit that I/we usually spend more time in his > > room/cage/aviary. As with the waterfall, plants, fish, and everything > > it is much more relaxing enviroment. > > > I wouldn't mind copying some of the features in this cage/aviary. Do > you happen to have any photos ? Old Molly, Sorry I don't. I just put myself in the postion of my tiel, and asked myself what would I like in a home. I wish that I did though. As let me tell ya that it is VERY relaxful in his room. I also just wish that I'd been able to incorporate more of the design elements of his home into the whole house. John "Tiellover" Smith There's something that's kinda bugging me... I don't know, I just find it odd that all this happened in a matter of 7 days or so: -tiel started plucking -tiel is taken to see vet #1 -they run tests -tests are sent out to labs -tests come back negative -tiel is reffered to another vet -vet #2 runs tests -tests are sent out to labs -tests come back negative -vets come out to the house -vets take samples of food/soil/etc and run tests on them. I've never heard of such fast service in the vet sector. I know whenever I run tests on my birds and they need to be sent out it takes at least 3 or 4 days before the results come back, and then there's the setting up appointments, etc. Little details like that just bug me... like a little splinter under a fingernail. *eg* Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > I've never heard of such fast service in the vet sector. I know whenever I > run tests on my birds and they need to be sent out it takes at least 3 or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Little details like that just bug me... like a little splinter under a > fingernail. *eg* Fascinating... I hadn't noticed this, but you're right... Something doesn't add up... Hey - and how do you manage to press him with the burning issues, yet he's still being civil to you and venting on me over my debate with D_C? I need that skill at work!! You're good!! ;-) I'll be watching this thread, you can bet! >> I've never heard of such fast service in the vet sector. I know >> whenever I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > need > that skill at work!! You're good!! ;-) It's my smashing good looks! :) > I'll be watching this thread, you can bet! There's never a dull moments here on a.p.p.c. lol Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > There's something that's kinda bugging me... I don't know, I just find it > odd that all this happened in a matter of 7 days or so: > > -tiel started plucking > -tiel is taken to see vet #1 Yes, I took him to mine/his/our normal vet. > -they run tests Yes > -tests are sent out to labs Yes, well actually the vet I go to has his own lab. Is that so strange? > -tests come back negative Is that so surprising considering that he has his own lab? > -tiel is reffered to another vet Yes, while my normal vet was conducting his exam he said that he recommended that I take my bird to another vet. I took his advice and called while still at his office and made an appointment. And I got lucky in that she had had a cancellation, and that if I could there she'd look at my bird. > -vet #2 runs tests Yes. > -tests are sent out to labs Yes, she however doesn't have her own lab. > -tests come back negative I don't know what lab she uses but she'd called me to tell me that she'd gotten the results back, later on in the week and that the test results for giardia, pbfd as well as chlamydiosis/psittacosis had come back negative. She was and still is waiting for some of the other tests that she ordered. > -vets come out to the house > -vets take samples of food/soil/etc and run tests on them. Again in light of the fact that he has his own lab why should this be a surprise? > I've never heard of such fast service in the vet sector. I know whenever I > run tests on my birds and they need to be sent out it takes at least 3 or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Little details like that just bug me... like a little splinter under a > fingernail. *eg* *woosh* it just flew over your head, didn't it. You missed my point entirely. What sounded, and still does, hokey to me is that all this happened in just 7 days!?!?!? >> There's something that's kinda bugging me... I don't know, I just find >> it [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >> Little details like that just bug me... like a little splinter under a >> fingernail. *eg* Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo Marco, Ok, I guess it's gone over my head as well. What seems "hokey" about it? I think that if he was able to find a vet that did his own lab work that he should consider himself lucky. And in his original posting he said a wk or so. . .So to me that could be anywhere from 7 to 10 days, of course someone else might consider a wk or so to be 7 to 12 days. . . And even if his vet didn't have his own lab isn't it possible that in 10 - 12 days to get at least some results back? I mean when I lost my previous 'tiel that the vet I took him to for a necropsy that she called me back that Monday to tell me the results of her preliminary results. And I had taken him to her on Saturday. . . So please why couldn't he have gotten some results back in a "wk or so??? DC | *woosh* it just flew over your head, didn't it. You missed my point | entirely. What sounded, and still does, hokey to me is that all this [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] | Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry | Pratchett, Jingo > So please why couldn't he have gotten some results back in a "wk or > so??? He didn't say he got "SOME" results back. He stated that _All_ this happened in period of "a week or so"... from his tiel plucking, vet visits, running tests, getting results back, referal to another vet, sending out tests to outside lab, getting results back, both vets coming to inspect the place and testing soil and water... I guess being in this newsgroup for a while has made me a little jaded when it comes to people telling their stories and I take everything with a grain of salt (or a pound). Also, every bit of advice he's been given (all good btw) has been dismissed, I don't know why. This strikes me as another case of "i need your advice, but I already have made up my mind". Oh well... Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear in my first post. When I am > home he spends as much time as he chooses hanging out with me. I have [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > John "Teillover" Smith Do you smoke? If everything else is right, then I can only assume that the bird is plucking because it is lonely for another bird or wants to breed. > > Should I give him a mate? He already has one nest box that he uses > > to sleep in. IF I did give him a mate should I add more nest boxes? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Good luck, > Mark Mark, After getting my computer back in working order (had some major HD problems) I've gone back and re-read my orignal post, and some of the replies. You said that you hadn't seen in my original post any mention of how much time my tiel gets to spend with me. I respectfully suggest that you go back and re-read the 5th paragraph. In it I said that he is out of his cage/aviary whenever I'm home. It's been about two weeks since my intial posting and he seems to be slowing down his plucking. And my primary vet has tested him again, for all of the "usual suspects" and again he's come up clean. John "Tiellover" Smith > His vet and I are both at a loss as to explain why he has started > feather plucking does anyone have any constructive suggestions as to > what could be causing his plucking??? Who knows... did the vet did any bloodwork at all? The first thing I advice people when it comes to feather plucking is to run a battery of tests, in order to rule out any illness or physical condition. Aside from the complete bloodwork, test for giardia, pbfd, zinc/lead toxicity, could be parasites, dry skin, etc. etc. So, get all that blood work done asap. Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo | > His vet and I are both at a loss as to explain why he has started | > feather plucking does anyone have any constructive suggestions as to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] | Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry | Pratchett, Jingo Marco, Given that John has said that not only is there a waterfall in his 'tiels cage or I guess from how he discribed it aviary would be the better term. But also a shower that his 'tiel uses I doubt that "dry skin" is the cause. . .Nor do I think that with the care that he has taken to elminate parasiets such as the use of diatomaceous earth around his 'tiels home. . . DC > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > such as > the use of diatomaceous earth around his 'tiels home. . . So, what is your point? Are you saying that because the tiel showers and there's diatomaceous earth around, the bird can't absolutely suffer from the conditions I mentioned? When I said dry skin, I didn't mean "ok, now it dry, now it is wet"... I'm talking dry skin like people suffers (which doesn't go away with just water). Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > So, what is your point? Are you saying that because the tiel showers and > there's diatomaceous earth around, the bird can't absolutely suffer from > the conditions I mentioned? When I said dry skin, I didn't mean "ok, now > it dry, now it is wet"... I'm talking dry skin like people suffers (which > doesn't go away with just water). The diatomaceous earth part intrigued me. I don't know that much about it, except it's origin and use in aquarium filters. But I thought that it was inert? How can that prevent parasites from getting to the bird? Mark >> So, what is your point? Are you saying that because the tiel showers and >> there's diatomaceous earth around, the bird can't absolutely suffer from [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mark It doesn't. It might prevent some bugs to crawl into the enclosure. Here's a page with basic info about it: http://www.biconet.com/crawlers/DE.html Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > It doesn't. It might prevent some bugs to crawl into the enclosure. Here's > a page with basic info about it: > http://www.biconet.com/crawlers/DE.html Very interesting! Thanks for that link! | > So, what is your point? Are you saying that because the tiel showers and | > there's diatomaceous earth around, the bird can't absolutely suffer from [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | | Mark Mark, If I hadn't read about the use of diatomaceous earth in Bird Talk magazine like you I would have also been intrigued. But here is a link that talks about how it is/can be used in insect control. According to this site it not only works when the insect crawls over/through it as well as when the digest it. http://www.biconet.com/crawlers/DE.html DC | > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- | > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] | it dry, now it is wet"... I'm talking dry skin like people suffers (which | doesn't go away with just water). Marco, No, but if you will go back and re-read what he wrote you'll see that John has taken what I think that MOST people would consider to be steps above and beyond the "normal" steps to insure that his beloved (as is evident by his living arrangement) pet's environment is free of pests. I mean how many of us ACTUALLY plant plants around our home that "discourage" insects? John made it a point to point out that he has done this in his 'tiel's cage. As for it being an avian form of psoriasis being as he has said that is vet is at a loss as to why his 'tiel has started to pluck his feathers. I would think that that can be ruled out. As well as I would think/hope that his vet has done a full workup to help figure out what the problem is. And as Mark N. has said I wouldn't mind living going to live with him either. . .As it sounds like he is one well pampered 'tiel. . . DC > So, what is your point? Are you saying that because the tiel showers and > there's diatomaceous earth around, the bird can't absolutely suffer from > the conditions I mentioned? When I said dry skin, I didn't mean "ok, now > it dry, now it is wet"... I'm talking dry skin like people suffers (which > doesn't go away with just water). <wisfully> I wish *he* would go away with water. (prepares a fire hose) ""diatomaceous earth around his 'tiels home. . ."" How is that going to solve internal, microscopic parasites like giardia?? This is used most commonly for insects, and I can bet you have no idea of how it works. Very often, it is useless anyway. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > =/Dks > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- NaDeana, I never said that it would solve internal parasites. And yes, I do know how diatomaceous earth works. Or at least I have a basic understanding of it. As Bird Talk magazine did an article on NON-chemcial methods of controling pests. And what I recall from the article it works by drying out the insects that cross it, "tearing" up their "lungs/air sacks" or whatever it is that those pests use to breath with. DC | ""diatomaceous earth around his 'tiels home. . ."" | [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] | > =/Dks | > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- When are you going to stop believing every article that you read? For everyone sakes, do a little research. Bird Talk, although informative and I love it, is not the bible. Diatomaceous earth is hardly effective, cleanliness is everything. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > =Ys7y > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- NaDeana, I do not believe every article I read, and I do, do some (not just a little) research. And I will take the opinion of Bird Talk and it's contributors over any advice you have to offer. DC | When are you going to stop believing every article that you read? For | everyone sakes, do a little research. Bird Talk, although informative and I [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] | > =Ys7y | > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Not a very Christian thing to say, DC........ > NaDeana, <snip>......I will take the opinion of Bird Talk and it's contributors over any advice you have to offer..... Mark, True, but I've had my fill of NaDeana and Pam and the rest of "their" marry band twisting my words around as well as taking what I've said out of context to suit them and their view of things. That Christian or not I've had my fill of them and their sanctimonious ways as well as their "holier then thou" attitude. Not to mention they're saying one thing at one time and then contradicting themselves in later posts. An example of this is Pam aka "Old Molly" saying that pellets aren't a "natural" food source as well as being an a "tool" to cause bird owning people into thinking that they cannot provide a balanced diet on their own. . .But then sometime later she admits in another post that she DOES in fact feed pellets to her own birds, and that she should take her own "advice" and stop feeding a protein rich diet so as to "force/trick" her hens from starting a breeding cycle that she wasn't ready for. She will then go on to "explain" her confusion on certain topics as a side effect of opiates that she takes for pain control. . . DC | Not a very Christian thing to say, DC........ | | > NaDeana, | | <snip>......I will take the opinion of Bird Talk and it's contributors over | any advice you have to offer..... I understand your posistion, DC, I really do... But so far as I could see, NaDeana hadn't said anything malicious. She was meerly expressing her point of view. Anyway. Just an observation. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > She will then go on to "explain" her confusion on certain topics as a side > effect of opiates that she takes for pain control. . . Mark, No, but from past dealings with her my "sheilds" are always up. DC | I understand your posistion, DC, I really do... | [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] | side | > effect of opiates that she takes for pain control. . . This is clasic chauvanistic "flock" behaviour. If a chicken gets an injury the rest will peck it until it is dead or leaves the flock. Not enough human contact I guess. Very interesting Mr. Freud. LOL > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > =OmSR > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- What are you ranting about PG? Injured Chicken? You make less sense with each post. > This is clasic chauvanistic "flock" behaviour. If a chicken gets an injury > the rest will peck it until it is dead or leaves the flock. > > Not enough human contact I guess. Very interesting Mr. Freud. LOL Oh, you mean the discussion a LONG time ago where I used an analogy, and you flew off your rocker assuming, assuming, assuming. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > =OmSR > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Welcome to the outcast group DC. You do not fly in the chauvanist's flock apparently as with most of the real people here. Don't worry. If you killfilter the a.sholes (trolls) here you will recover a fairly decent trying, helpful group of grownups once the noise level is gone. The poor newbies have a hard time discovering this though. This makes the group very hard to progress with any new talent/suggestions. This is their method of attempting control. (sort of a Jewish trait, I am told) > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > =Yjed > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > Welcome to the outcast group DC. You do not fly in the chauvanist's flock > apparently as with most of the real people here. You placed yourself here, PG, by being an immature idiot, and refusing to listen to people's advice RE: Your bird's dangerous liasons with your ceiling fan. I was quite nice to you there, before you started trolling, but you seemed to even think I was not good enough to listen to, simply because I agreed with what you perceive as the "chauvanists". There is no "outcast group". That's something you have created in your mind. Everybody is against you at the moment because you are behaving like a crazy, wacco idiot, and not making any sense. If you pull your horns in and listen and learn and start contributing to constructive conversation, I'm sure you'll find that there aren't any arseholes here, actually. (Well most of the time) > Don't worry. If you killfilter the a.sholes (trolls) here you will recover a > fairly decent trying, helpful group of grownups once the noise level is > gone. The only "noise" here currently is that of you're babbling and incoherent whinging. > The poor newbies have a hard time discovering this though. This makes the > group very hard to progress with any new talent/suggestions. Oh *poor* you. I feel simply *awwwful* for you. Stop you're whinging and just sit back and read the stuff that's actually on topic, and you will learn things. I have, and I'm a newbie.... > This is their method of attempting control. (sort of a Jewish trait, I am told) Hey Marco! I found a Bigot!!!!! I'm so excited!!! Is it a real one? > Welcome to the outcast group DC. You do not fly in the chauvanist's flock > apparently as with most of the real people here. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > group very hard to progress with any new talent/suggestions. This is their > method of attempting control. (sort of a Jewish trait, I am told) "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > =Yjed > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- She's a bigot. Or a racist. Or maybe she's just so dumb she didn't realise what she'd said.... > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? I'm not Jewish... I just can't stand a bigot or a racist! That was totally uncalled for! > She's a bigot. Or a racist. Or maybe she's just so dumb she didn't realise > what she'd said.... > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? How about "c.nt" I post as I speak and see no reason why I should change the way I am in case I might offend some delicate souls. > I'm not Jewish... I just can't stand a bigot or a racist! > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? I'd rather be called a "c.nt" than a bigot! > How about "c.nt" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? PG, Kathy and everyone else, I thought that this was suppose to be a family friendly environment. How do you think someone who is reading this with their small child "sitting" in their lap is going to feel about having to explain some of the lang. that is floating around here? DC | I'd rather be called a "c.nt" than a bigot! | [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] | > > > | > > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? "sitting"? Why did you put that in "inverted comas" ? Anyway, usenet is certianly not a family friendly environment and parents shouldn't let their kids have unsupervised access to it. It is unmoderated and no place for unsupervised children. That is to say most of the time it's fine, but you do get the occasional "naughty word" being spoken. I suggest that if you are offended by coarse language, killfile those using it. Otherwise don't complain. People have the right to say what they wish. I'm not trying to excuse PG, but you have to be aware that it IS the internet, and if you're worried about what your kids will see, supervise them. Never assume usenet is family orientated. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > =oM/q > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- DC, Hmmm, I do believe that any parent with small children would not take them to an unmoderated newsgroup like this one is. I believe they would take them to a moderated newsgroup, besides there are thousands of moderated ones. I also don't like some of the lang, but when someone pisses me off and calls me names then I believe it is okay to defend myself with whatever lang I want to use. Also I don't like some of the sarcastic remarks that PG uses.... I think she should THINK before she says anything! > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > =oM/q > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > I thought that this was suppose to be a family friendly environment. How do > you think someone who is reading this with their small child "sitting" in their > lap is going to feel about having to explain some of the lang. that is floating > around here? Usenet has never been any other way... Unfortunately... Any parent knowledgeable enough to access usenet should already know this :-( > How about "c.nt" No. You still fail to flatter us with your large vocabulary.... > I post as I speak and see no reason why I should change the way I am in > case I might offend some delicate souls. Tsk tsk. What has become of you PG? You continue to sink lower and lower....quoting Pam now, yet she is your arch enemy. Right now you look like one of her disciples.... (With no offence intended to you, Pam) You kiss your mama with that mouth? > How about "c.nt" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? > You kiss your mama with that mouth? -movie quoting time... 5 Nutriberries to whomever guesses what movie it is from- Latrelle: "You eat with that mouth too?" Lavonda: "Mostly!" :) Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > > You kiss your mama with that mouth? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > ~Marco~ Ooh ooh! <bounces in chair & raises hand> I know! Um...crap, it's not the cheerleader one, it's the other one. >> > You kiss your mama with that mouth? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the > cheerleader one, it's the other one. LOL... Sordid Lives... no soup for you! Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > >> > You kiss your mama with that mouth? > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -- I *knew* that one! I just forgot the name of it. But you can keep yer soup dude...gak >> On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 01:19:03 GMT, Laurie (again) <whowhat@where.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > soup > dude...gak Ok, just wait til you try sis's 'nappy time' chicken and rice soup! Yumm! Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > > You kiss your mama with that mouth? Austin Powers in "Goldmember" to the twin "Fookmi"... Nobody kisses my "mama" except worms > You kiss your mama with that mouth? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > > > > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? > Nobody kisses my "mama" except worms Eeeww.. that's just creepy and sick and offensive. >> You kiss your mama with that mouth? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> > > > >> > > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > Nobody kisses my "mama" except worms > > > You kiss your mama with that mouth? You are one seriously deranged gal there. When are they going to up your dose? Not deranged for telling the truth. You have some problem with the truth or just some problem with everything? > > Nobody kisses my "mama" except worms > > > > > You kiss your mama with that mouth? > > You are one seriously deranged gal there. When are they going to up your > dose? > Not deranged for telling the truth. You have some problem with the truth or > just some problem with everything? Nope, just some problem with you. Just shows your sick state of mind...my mom is dead too, but I wouldn't dream of saying something like that. It's just sick Well a stupid answer for a stupid question I guess...LOL I can be (almost) as stupid as the next a.shole here. May as well get used to it because the source doesn't stop. I am good as a mirror. Some just do not like their own reflections. I can guess who has their's covered up too...LOL > > Not deranged for telling the truth. You have some problem with the truth > or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mom is dead too, but I wouldn't dream of saying something like that. It's > just sick > Well a stupid answer for a stupid question I guess...LOL > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not like their own reflections. I can guess who has their's covered up > too...LOL That "I know you are but what am I" BS reminds me of someone. LOL Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo > > Well a stupid answer for a stupid question I guess...LOL > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > ~Marco~ Don't say! We don't Betelguese back And who would that be? > Well a stupid answer for a stupid question I guess...LOL > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > mom is dead too, but I wouldn't dream of saying something like that. It's > > just sick WTF? Huh? > Not deranged for telling the truth. You have some problem with the truth or > just some problem with everything? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You are one seriously deranged gal there. When are they going to up your > > dose? You are one sick puppy, PG! Are the meds wearing off? > Nobody kisses my "mama" except worms > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? Charming. I'm sure she's turning in her grave at the language that you are ejaculating into this thread. > Nobody kisses my "mama" except worms My Mom is dead too, but I would NEVER say something like that! Whacko! I'm sure she is proud! NOT! > Nobody kisses my "mama" except worms > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > "Jewish trait", Why did you throw that in? <antisemitic comment snipped> Oy! You should just shut your pisk and stop being such a nudnik. Signature~Marco~ "Build a man a fire, and he'll |
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