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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Goldfish / November 2004Fish Flicking
Hi all, I have a 21 (uk) gallon / 95 litre tank with 2 small comet goldfish, 2 small red capped orandas and a coldwater plec (chinese hillstream loach). For several weeks now I have noticed the fish flicking against ornaments and the gravel. It seems to occur a couple of times a day and all but the hillstream loach show signs of flicking. I have checked each fish closely to try to spot any parasites, but nothing! The fish act fine most of the time, only occassionally do I spot one of the goldfish with his fins down. All have a good appetite and seem active enough. I have checked the water quality: Ammonnia 0 Nitrites 0 Nitrates 60 KH 3-4 GH 6-7 PH 7.2 The KH was lower than this originally, but I have put bits of corel in the filter and the KH + GH is slowly rising. I have had several fish die over the last few weeks and I'm ripping my hair out trying to figure out what it could be due to. Each fish that has died hasn't shown any obvious signs of illness (apart from the flicking). In fact the last fish looked perfectly healthy until I realised he wasn't breathing and had got stuck to the filter. In desperation I have removed everything from the tank (gravel, ornaments, plants) so now there is just the filter, fish and water. I have even made sure that there are no air fresheners or plants near the tank just incase they could be the cause! In the past I have tried a does of eSHa Exit and eSHa 2000 over 3 days which I believe is supposed to be very good at curing most diseases, but I do not like to use loads of treatments because I know this can stress the fish even more. I would be greatful if anyone has any ideas or suggestions to what could be causing the problem?? Many thanks, Paul > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > GH 6-7 > PH 7.2 Your nitrates are far to high, how often do you do water changes and how often? You do realise that you should have about a 70gallon tank for these fish? You are overstocked. > Your nitrates are far to high, how often do you do water changes and how often? > You do realise that you should have about a 70gallon tank for these fish? You > are > overstocked. I really appreciate your reply. I know that goldfish require a LOT of space but by my calculations, a 70 gallon tank for 5 small fish (average 1 inch each) would be about 6' - 7' long? I have always been a bit unsure about what the nitrate should be. According to my eSHa test kit, it recommends a range between 25 and 100, although a value of 30 and above can cause problem with algae growth. What do you recommend nitrates should be and is simply replacing the water the best way of reducing it? I change the water every 2-3 weeks. My only concern is that where I live (Birmingham, England), the water is very very soft. In fact the test results showed a KH and GH of 0 hence why I have been using corel to increase the hardness. Paul > > Your nitrates are far to high, how often do you do water changes and how often? > > You do realise that you should have about a 70gallon tank for these fish? You [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Paul Paul, I have a 63 gallon tank that is about 4 feet long - its reasonably tall.... Remember your fish are small now, but your commons will likely grow to 10" or even more.... I'd suggest keeping nitrates lower than 40ppm, 20ppm if possible. Replacing the water is the best method - I typically do 25-40% changes on my 63 once a week. Goldfish are dirty so nitrates will elevate. If you get a bigger tank you will be able to control the nitrate build easier. Coral is a good idea to up your hardness. Some people use dolomitic limestone and others have used baking soda too. at 1 inch your fish are just out of being "fry". that size fish is exquisitely sensitive to water quality and more than 20 ppm nitrates would definitely contribute to problems and death. replacing water is the way to reduce nitrates. 1 inch fancy GF have a high mortality rate no matter what you do. Ingrid >(average 1 inch each) would be about 6' - 7' long? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. >I change the water every 2-3 weeks. My only concern is that where I >live (Birmingham, England), the water is very very soft. In fact the >test results showed a KH and GH of 0 hence why I have been using corel >to increase the hardness. ok, I'm in Birmingham too and our water is WEIRD. I had a discussion about it in re.aquaria.freshwater.misc with NetMax a few weeks ago, in fact. The water here is soft and alkaline, which is a very strange and very unstable combination. At the moment Severn Trent is adding a temp. buffer to it, but once out of the tap the pH drops rapidly. You're doing the right thing by buffering, but even with buffer you are not going to hold the initial pH for long. (I was talking to the man in the aquatics shop about this a couple of days ago). So the trick with water changes is little and often, especially in a small tank. A big water change is going to result in your pH bouncing initially up and then straight back down, which the fish will hate. Leaving the water to age overnight will help, too. I have had real problem keepiomng pH stable in my small tank, even with huge quantities of coral gravel, and this is my best solution - little and often with the water...  Signaturesophie > ok, I'm in Birmingham too and our water is WEIRD. I had a discussion > about it in re.aquaria.freshwater.misc with NetMax a few weeks ago, in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > huge quantities of coral gravel, and this is my best solution - little > and often with the water... I'm really keen to get my nitrate levels down to 20ppm. As a compromise between Ingrids 50% daily water changes and your 'little and often' solution should I go for 25% daily water changes for 2 weeks or even 12.5% daily water changes for 4 weeks? Paul get a proper buffer in there and you wont have any problems. Ingrid I'm really keen to get my nitrate levels down to 20ppm. As a >compromise between Ingrids 50% daily water changes and your 'little >and often' solution should I go for 25% daily water changes for 2 >weeks or even 12.5% daily water changes for 4 weeks? > >Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. your water isnt a problem if you add dolomitic limestone as a buffer. I was using softened water I just tossed a couple tablespoons into the water before running the soft water in. something like "RO Right" will put the correct buffer into acidic water. water is usually acidic because it is soft with no buffer and even a drop of acid pushes the pH below 5. buffers resist changes in pH. Ingrid >>I change the water every 2-3 weeks. My only concern is that where I >>live (Birmingham, England), the water is very very soft. In fact the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >huge quantities of coral gravel, and this is my best solution - little >and often with the water... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. >your water isnt a problem if you add dolomitic limestone as a buffer. I >was using [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >even a drop of >acid pushes the pH below 5. buffers resist changes in pH. Yes, I appreciate what a buffer is/does; I was trying to make the point that as we have dead soft but alkaline water here which is held at that high pH with a temporary buffer by the water company, I have found that the easiest way to cope with it is to buffer the tank and hold it at about 7.5 and do smallish water changes, which don't mess with the tank's established pH too badly. If the tank isn't buffered the pH crashes pretty rapidly. Why is dolomitic limestone a better buffer than the coral (or shells)? > Ingrid > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the >endorsements or recommendations I make. Signaturesophie soft water = little to no alkalinity at all. alkalinity is not same thing as pH. soft is the removal of calcium. the temporary pH boost may be sodium bicarbonate. it is ephemeral as it blows off as CO2. yes, dolomitic limestone is better. first, coral is endangered (this excludes coral deposits) but both coral and shells are not optimal as they are marine... good for salt water tanks tho. they are better than nothing if dolomitic limestone cannot be found (try garden centers). always try the limestone out in a bucket of tap water to make sure the pH stabilizes. A few years ago somebody suggested "pH pills" out of plaster of paris and loads of pond owners down in the soft water south started tossing them in and had pH swinging around wildly killing their fish. Ingrid >Yes, I appreciate what a buffer is/does; I was trying to make the point >that as we have dead soft but alkaline water here which is held at that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Why is dolomitic limestone a better buffer than the coral (or shells)? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. >soft water = little to no alkalinity at all. alkalinity is not same >thing as pH. it's been far, far too long since I did chemistry... I meant alkalin as in high pH; opposite of acid. Must revise terminology... I'm horrified to think that the coral gravel sold in aquatics shops might come from live reefs, if that's the case I'll be avoiding it like the plague. >soft is the removal of calcium. >the temporary pH boost may be sodium bicarbonate. it is ephemeral as [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the >endorsements or recommendations I make. Signaturesophie start doing 50% water changes every day for a week. you cant "see" most parasites without a microscope, but you can try this. http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/DIAGNOSI/scrape-fakefish.mpg http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/DIAGNOSI/scrape-realfish.mpg you do a gentle scrape and if there is a big glop of stuff on the card, then treat with Quick Cure or other formalin based medications. but first, do a fish physical and make SURE the gills are bright red before doing medications. http://www.mu.edu/~buxtoni/puregold/disease/technique/technique.html#Jo_Ann's_Fi sh_Physical get the plec out of the tank, he could be sucking on the slime coat of the GF and causing the problem. INgrid >Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. > start doing 50% water changes every day for a week. you cant "see" most parasites > without a microscope, but you can try this. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > get the plec out of the tank, he could be sucking on the slime coat of the GF and > causing the problem. INgrid After plucking up the courage, I did the scrape test on 2 of my fish. Both produced a small amount of 'stuff'. At first I thought it was just water as it was clear, but it was slightly sticky and thicker than water. Is this normal or is it a sign of infection? The only other thing I would like to point out is that I have noticed the tiny bubbles of air produced from my internal power filter sometimes stick to the fish. They are definately air bubbles because they eventually disappear as the fish swim around. Would this be due to the sticky stuff on them? Also, in preparation for the treatment, can anyone tell me of some formalin based medications that are available in the UK as I think Quick Cure is only sold in the US. Once again, thanks to everyone who is helping me and my fish! Paul almost any amount of "stuff" on the edge means thickened slime coat (really thick slime coat on a fish looks gray and comes off in strips). if you do a 5-6 inch long fish you will come up with some normal slime coat. but on smaller fish this means parasites of some kind. no.. air bubbles dont do anything. Ingrid >> start doing 50% water changes every day for a week. you cant "see" most parasites >> without a microscope, but you can try this. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. >almost any amount of "stuff" on the edge means thickened slime coat (really thick >slime coat on a fish looks gray and comes off in strips). if you do a 5-6 inch long >fish you will come up with some normal slime coat. but on smaller fish this means >parasites of some kind. >no.. air bubbles dont do anything. >Ingrid Are you positive that is why? -- Lady Chatterly "Lady Chattlerly must be posting from the mensa group. That post went way over my head too." -- la n. QuickCure is by far the best one. Order it online from the US. May be worth the couple od extra $$$ >> start doing 50% water changes every day for a week. you cant "see" most >> parasites [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Paul |
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