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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Goldfish / May 2005Should I starve my Betta??? :-(
Ok, this is not a troll... Seriously. I need some advice! I felt so sorry for the Betta I got from Wal-mart, I appear to have over-fed him. It took him 3 days with me to even start eating! I posted about this awhile ago and did follow advice about cutting him back to a single small feeding per day, but I had to make sure I fed enough to also feed the two mystery snails. I alternate between flakes, betta pellets and bloodworms. The smaller of the two snails died yesterday, but he was in bad shape when I got him with dissolved spots in his shell. He's been flaating a lot on and off for the past month so I figured he was going to die soon. I've read that floating is a normal behavior for these snails but I don't agree! My Ivory snail _never_ floats and is still alive and active. The last two golden snails I've lost did a lot of floating before they died. So, back to my question, the betta is seriously obese and the reduced diet does not seem to be helping and I'm worried that I've possibly "loved him to death". Betta's seem to last for weeks with no food at Wal-mart, so should I just quit feeding him altogether for awhile? Will the snail starve to death? I'd feel so mean and cruel doing this, but if it'd help him....... Please advise???  SignatureK. > Ok, this is not a troll... Seriously. I need some advice! > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > I'd feel so mean and cruel doing this, but if it'd help him....... Bettas, like most fish, can go for quite a while without food. I've had LFS bettas go for two weeks before they would eat for me. If the snail wasn't an issue, I would say feed the betta bits of banana or green pea for a while. These will go right through his system (assuming he'll eat them at all - bettas are notoriously picky eaters), will help clean him out if he's constipated, and won't contribute to his weight. I'm not much of a snail-keeper so I couldn't say how well your snail will do without food. If your tank is planted the snail will probably be fine for quite a while. If not and if you're that worried about the snail move him (her? it?) to a spare tank and feed as usual while you treat the betta. If you don't have a spare tank buy a cheap #10 at the LFS or Wal-Mart - you need a quarantine tank anyway :) SignatureJohn Goulden mostly goldfish, guppies, bettas, and swordtails > > Ok, this is not a troll... Seriously. I need some advice! > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > spare tank buy a cheap #10 at the LFS or Wal-Mart - you need a quarantine > tank anyway :) Great! Thanks for the input... :-) Mystery snails would do very well on shelled peas and that might make the Betta lose some weight as well if I can get him to eat them and if not, the snail will. I think I may give the betta a pinch of bloodworms maybe once per week then if he won't eat the peas then go from there..... No, the tank is not planted. Just rock decorations and a couple of plastic plants. Thank you!!!!! SignatureOm. "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson John This happened to my friend. Actually, what was going on was that the betta got DROPSY - a type of internal infection. This is how I cured my friend's betta and hes doing great since February. 1. Do a 100% water change. Take betta with some water and put him in another container while you change the water in his tank/bowl. 2. If you can afford it, get a mini-heater from Walmart to bring the temperature up to 78 degrees. If you cannot afford it, put him in a warmer place in your house where the temperature is stable. DO NOT put him near a radiator or on top of a TV, or near a range or other heating device, or near a window. 3. Get MARYCYN TWO (I think it TWO - it's the one for dropsy.) It's a tablet. Calculate how much to put in the water, and treat the betta for 8 days. 4. STOP putting random food in his water. Place one or two pieces of food and WATCH him. If he doesn't eat, remove the food. 5. Offer live food if you can. Black worms, if you can get them, will live in the bowl for several days!!! Your betta will hunt them down when he begins eating again. Good luck! n >>So, back to my question, the betta is seriously obese and the reduced >>diet does not seem to be helping and I'm worried that I've possibly >>"loved him to death". > 2. If you can afford it, get a mini-heater from Walmart to bring the > temperature up to 78 degrees. If you cannot afford it, put him in a > warmer place in your house where the temperature is stable. DO NOT put > him near a radiator or on top of a TV, or near a range or other heating > device, or near a window. Bettas are warm-water fish and should be at about 78F regardless. Bettas do not do well at all when the water is 74F or cooler. SignatureJohn Goulden > > 2. If you can afford it, get a mini-heater from Walmart to bring the > > temperature up to 78 degrees. If you cannot afford it, put him in a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Bettas are warm-water fish and should be at about 78F regardless. Bettas do > not do well at all when the water is 74F or cooler. Since I keep the light on and it's a small tank, the water is always very warm. Around 80 degrees when I checked it. SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain >> > 2. If you can afford it, get a mini-heater from Walmart to bring the >> > temperature up to 78 degrees. If you cannot afford it, put him in a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Since I keep the light on and it's a small tank, the water is always >very warm. Around 80 degrees when I checked it. do you mean you keep the light on 24 hours? Signaturesophie www.freewebs.com/fishstuff (under construction. ish.) > >> > 2. If you can afford it, get a mini-heater from Walmart to bring the > >> > temperature up to 78 degrees. If you cannot afford it, put him in a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > do you mean you keep the light on 24 hours? Yes. I keep the house AC set at 72. The snails keep any algae at bay... I did try turning the light off a few times then checking the temp. It drops to around 75 within 2 hours. He gets sluggish when it gets that cold. SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain > > do you mean you keep the light on 24 hours? > > Yes. Fish should have natural cycles of light and dark. Keeping them in full light all the time is not healthy and can stress fish. > > > do you mean you keep the light on 24 hours? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > them in full light all the time is not healthy and can > stress fish. Oh..... But the water gets cold! Guess I could get a water heater. ;-) Ok! <duh> He does seem to sleep fine. He hides behind the ornament in the fake greenery....... SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain >> >> > 2. If you can afford it, get a mini-heater from Walmart to bring the >> >> > temperature up to 78 degrees. If you cannot afford it, put him in a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >It drops to around 75 within 2 hours. He gets sluggish when it gets that >cold. you can get baby heaters, which are pretty inexpensive and which should last as long as your betta. if you leave the lights on 24/7 fish get very stressed - they can't shut their eyes and they need dark time on a relatively regular basis... Signaturesophie www.freewebs.com/fishstuff (under construction. is.) > >> >> > 2. If you can afford it, get a mini-heater from Walmart to bring the > >> >> > temperature up to 78 degrees. If you cannot afford it, put him in a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > very stressed - they can't shut their eyes and they need dark time on a > relatively regular basis... I've done a bit of checking and you are correct! :-( I feel guilty now. Ok, the light will go off at night from now on, thanks! SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain > if you leave the lights on 24/7 fish get > very stressed - they can't shut their eyes and they need dark time on a > relatively regular basis... I think you mean "shut off there eyes" ;) > > if you leave the lights on 24/7 fish get > > very stressed - they can't shut their eyes and they need dark time on a > > relatively regular basis... > > I think you mean "shut off there eyes" ;) As far as I can tell, fish have no eyelids... I turned the light off last night around 10 pm when I left for work and when I came home from work around 8 am, I turned it back on. Fishie was sleeping soundly at the front of the tank on top of the cluster of quartz crystals. ;-) Took him several minutes to wake up and beg for his breakfast! He got FD brine shrimp. SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain > > > if you leave the lights on 24/7 fish get > > > very stressed - they can't shut their eyes and they need dark time on a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > quartz crystals. ;-) Took him several minutes to wake up and beg for his > breakfast! Got you, yes I know, I read you're statement wrong! :D I've kept bettas for 10 years and have only used heaters in 3 of my bowls/tanks - usually when they are in a colder room in our home. n > I've kept bettas for 10 years and have only used heaters in 3 of my > bowls/tanks - usually when they are in a colder room in our home. Bettas are very resilient fish. They can take bad water, heat too low or high, too much or not enough light, etc.. That doesn't mean they don't have a preferred set of conditions. As far as the temperature goes, I keep mine around 78F with a heater and they're a lot more active than those I've seen in unheated environments. And some will tell you that my tanks still aren't warm enough. The only thing I've seen that really stresses them out is too much current. They don't seem to be able to adapt to fast running water. I am by no means an expert on the subject, just reporting what my observations have been and what I've read here and elsewhere. SignatureBNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever > I am by no means an expert on the subject, just reporting what my > observations have been and what I've read here and elsewhere. Can't tell you why, exactly, but my bettas live for 3-5 years, flaring and healthy and curious - with no heater -- just a stable environment and clean water. Feeding bloodworms, blackworms and Hikari betta pellets and that's pretty much it. I do think 10 years experience and 5 year old bettas indicate my fish are being well cared for, don't you? n > > I am by no means an expert on the subject, just reporting what my > > observations have been and what I've read here and elsewhere. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are being well cared for, don't you? > n How often do you clean the water and what percent? Do your betta bowls have a filter system? SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain > How often do you clean the water and what percent? > Do your betta bowls have a filter system? Hi, Don't know if this question is meant for me. I change the water every 3 weeks - 25% I have UGF's (Under gravel filters) in 2.5 Hex setups with light. The filters and substrate are cleaned every 6-9 months. (I just bought a gravel vac for them, so maybe this won't have to happen so often...) n > > How often do you clean the water and what percent? > > Do your betta bowls have a filter system? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > n Thanks... Maybe, with more knowlege, I can keep one alive longer. Mom never managed to get one to live for more than a year. SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell--you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain I actually noticed significant improvement in overall health when I went from unheated to heated tanks. I made the switch about two years ago after I lost several bettas to ich (more common in cool water) and other diseases brought on by weakened immune systems. Since the switch I have had 1 instance of ich in an older fish but it was caught and corrected early. The frequency of disease is fraction of what it used to be in when kept in unheated tanks. That's my personal experience. It sounds like NanK had things pretty well under control though if her(?) fish are making the 5 year mark. Many wild species of betta are actually found in much cooler water then what splendens are suggested to be kept in. So, some bettas can do quite well in water under 75°. Still, I wouldn't recommend an unheated tank for a new hobbyist keeping splendens. > I actually noticed significant improvement in overall health when I > went from unheated to heated tanks. I made the switch about two years [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > quite well in water under 75°. Still, I wouldn't recommend an unheated > tank for a new hobbyist keeping splendens. I used a water thermometer to keep tabs... With the light on, the tank stays right at 80 degrees. When I turn it off, the temp. drops to right at 75 degrees and stays there and does not seem to drop any lower. The bathroom AC vent stays shut. Looks like this is going to work out fine! I'll keep tabs and if it ever DOES start getting colder, I'll install a tank heater. I'm just leery of them because I've heard of them shorting out and over-heating tanks accidently. I'd hate to cook my baby boy! :-o SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain So, some bettas can do > quite well in water under 75°. Still, I wouldn't recommend an unheated > tank for a new hobbyist keeping splendens. I have to say my brother also needs to heat his bettas. Perhaps it's the fact that the temperature in this house is more stable rather than the actual degrees. The one betta I kept in the kitchen (more fluctuations in temp) had to be heated this past winter or he curled up and hid most of the time.) n I've kept several combinations of bettas and mystery snails together. It can be done. What I have always done is feed my mystery snails food the betta won't eat. I cut a thin slice of cucumber or zucchini, boil it in water in the microwave until it is soft and sinks and then I run it under cold water and plop it in the tank. The snails eat it up like candy and the betta could care less. Algae wafers may or may not be good. Mystery snails love them but sometimes bettas do too. It depends on the betta. You could try it and see if it works. As far as protein goes, I would feed my mystery snails bloodworms off of a toothpick when they were attached to the glass near the surface. Sure the betta wanted in on the meals, but you have control as long as you're feeding off a toothpick or some other device. You don't want to starve your betta. It generally takes about 2 weeks for them to starve to death but still they require nutrients like any other animal. A poor diet equals a weakened immune system. Fasting for a day or two a week is fine so long as he's getting his regular one to two meals a day. Now I have to ask... Are you certain he is overweight and doesn't have some other disease where bloating is a symptom? Obese bettas will show weight all over not just in their abdomen. If you are seeing localized swelling, I might suggest looking at other causes. A photo would be helpful. Here's a photo of my betta Bone when I first got him. He was a little overweight. http://www.nippyfish.net/Bonecolorless.jpg Here's a photo of him after a few months with proper feeding. http://www.nippyfish.net/Boneswimming.jpg You can see the excess weight is seen throughout his body. > I've kept several combinations of bettas and mystery snails together. > It can be done. What I have always done is feed my mystery snails food [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > wanted in on the meals, but you have control as long as you're feeding > off a toothpick or some other device. That is a neat idea... :-) When he comes to the top to breathe then, if I spot him, I'll offer him "private" bloodworms! In the meantime he should do ok on the peas. I offered peas tonight and we'll see if he eats them. The Betta tried, but decided they were not food. I also have fresh organic chard in the garden at the moment so can use some of that too, as well as baby spinach. > You don't want to starve your betta. It generally takes about 2 weeks > for them to starve to death but still they require nutrients like any > other animal. A poor diet equals a weakened immune system. Fasting for > a day or two a week is fine so long as he's getting his regular one to > two meals a day. So, what if I feed him every other day for a bit? > Now I have to ask... Are you certain he is overweight and doesn't have > some other disease where bloating is a symptom? Obese bettas will show > weight all over not just in their abdomen. If you are seeing localized > swelling, I might suggest looking at other causes. I'm not entirely sure actually... The fat belly came on slowly over time and he's been about as fat (maybe bloated?) as he is now for about a month so I suspect if he was sick, he'd have died by now? Maybe not? He acts pretty normal, betta's are not all that active except when begging, so he seems to respond to me normally. > A photo would be helpful. That is what took me so long to answer this. ;-p Darnit but it's hard to take a halfway decent picture in a tank!!! This pic is still slightly blurred, but it's the best of several tries. You can see his large belly fairly well here, but the rest of his body seems to be larger and broader than most Betta's I've seen. Please let me know what you think? http://home.centurytel.net/Katraslink/FatBetta2.jpg > Here's a photo of my betta Bone when I first got him. He was a little > overweight. > http://www.nippyfish.net/Bonecolorless.jpg Yes, I see. He as a slight fat roll from front to back along is entire side. > Here's a photo of him after a few months with proper feeding. > http://www.nippyfish.net/Boneswimming.jpg Pretty baby. :-) > You can see the excess weight is seen throughout his body. Yes. I started out feeding this one 3 times per day, then cut it to smaller amounts twice per day when I first started seeing that he was no longer the skinny boy he was when I bought him, then dropped it to once per day when it appeared he was getting obese. If he is ill, what should I do about it? Thanks for responding! I appreciated it. SignatureK. Katra, that photo was helpful. He is a big boy but doesn't appear to be really overweight. Just big like a full grown male should look. He does have localized swelling of his abdomen though. (The area that is white) From the photo it appears he is either constipated or possibly has Dropsy. :-/ You probably already know that dropsy is fatal most of the time in bettas. If he has been bloated like this for a long time I would say it is either constipation do to the type of food you are feeding or dropsy. Bettas can have the symptoms of dropsy for several days to two months or so. Before thinking the worst, consider removing the dry food from his diet (flakes and pellets) and feed him just bloodworms and other frozen foods like brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, white worms, blackworms, beef hear, etc. Some bettas bloat very easily when eating these dry foods. Give him a little blanched pea once a week to make sure he is still getting some fiber. Here's an article on betta constipation. http://www.nippyfish.net/constipation.html and one on dropsy. http://www.nippyfish.net/dropsy.html > Katra, > that photo was helpful. He is a big boy but doesn't appear to be really > overweight. Just big like a full grown male should look. He does have > localized swelling of his abdomen though. (The area that is white) From > the photo it appears he is either constipated or possibly has Dropsy. > :-/ > You probably already know that dropsy is fatal most of the time in > bettas. If he has been bloated like this for a long time I would say it > is either constipation do to the type of food you are feeding or > dropsy. Bettas can have the symptoms of dropsy for several days to two > months or so. That is what I was also worried about as a possibility. <sigh> He's been that way for awhile, is there anything I can do about it? I lost a beautiful black moore goldfish when I was in college to Dropsy. "Charro" had it so bad, her scales stuck out all over. I think I treated her for it, but she'd go back and forth with it and finally died after a couple of months. > Before thinking the worst, consider removing the dry food from his diet > (flakes and pellets) and feed him just bloodworms and other frozen > foods like brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, white worms, blackworms, beef > hear, etc. Some bettas bloat very easily when eating these dry foods. > Give him a little blanched pea once a week to make sure he is still > getting some fiber. Hmmmmm... okay! He prefers the bloodworms to the betta pellets and flakes anyway, thanks! I can also go to the pet store today to get the other foods. Critter corner is a very good LFS so has a good stock of varying foods. Will fresh frozen peas work? I offered some of those last night and he tasted them, then rejected them. The snail finally got around to eating those all this morning! I do need to clean the tank and filter system, and that's in the plans for this afternoon. > Here's an article on betta constipation. > http://www.nippyfish.net/constipation.html > and one on dropsy. http://www.nippyfish.net/dropsy.html Thank you SO much for the help! I know betta's don't live very long in general, but I've only had him for about 3 months and I want to do good by him! :-( He was a Wal-mart "rescue". SignatureK. Sprout the MungBean to reply "I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain |
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