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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Goldfish / January 2006Black moor resting by heater
Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my question: We have 2 black moor goldfish. One of them we had about a year in a 1-gallon aquarium, and he did fine. A few weeks ago, we moved him to a 10-gallon aquarium and added a second black moor. About a week ago, I noticed that the original black moor seemed to be having trouble swimming against the current of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed frayed. I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline tablets. The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the surface of the water, not moving. I thought he was dead. But then, he began to swim around, frisky as ever. In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time "resting" in the corner by the heater, but then he periodically swims around and looks as healthy and happy as ever. His tail seems to be regenerating (or am I imagining that ?) and his eyes seem clearer (or am I imagining that too?). I am inclined to believe if he were going to die, it would have happened by now. He seems to be recuperating, so what is going on here? Is he staying by the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having trouble fighting the current being generated by the filter, but even when I turn off the filter, he stays in the corner. The other fish is swimming around normally. Any thoughts on what is going on here? Best regards, ---Cindy S. > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my > question: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of the filter. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that his tail seemed > frayed. Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for ammonia and nitrites? I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline > tablets. These will probably kill off your nitrifying bacteria. :-( The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started > treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the > surface of the water, not moving. I thought he was dead. But then, he > began > to swim around, frisky as ever. Why are you heating the water for cold water fish? Goldfish don't need a heater. > In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time "resting" > in the corner by the heater, but then he periodically swims around and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > am inclined to believe if he were going to die, it would have happened by > now. He seems to be recuperating, so what is going on here? Again, have you checked the ammonia and nitrite levels in this new set-up? Are you doing weekly partial water changes? Did you quarantine the NEW fish for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish? Is he staying by > the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having trouble > fighting the current being generated by the filter, How much current is this filter putting out? If it's annoying the fish you need to slow it down or get another type or a smaller filter. but even when I turn off > the filter, he stays in the corner. The other fish is swimming around > normally. > > Any thoughts on what is going on here? > Best regards, It doesn't sound too good. What was the PH in his old small tank and what is the PH in this new tank? Could this be old tank syndrome?  SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: NEW PAGE: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my > > question: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Is there an ammonia problem in this new setup? Have you checked for ammonia > and nitrites? After doing some research after I posted, I'm wondering. We'll be checking that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we need to test the water. > I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot > > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline > > tablets. > > These will probably kill off your nitrifying bacteria. :-( Yup. Do you think the tablets were a mistake? We're total novices at this (obviously). The one fish was fine in the 1 gallon tank for a year. We got a tank that was presumably bigger, nicer, more sophisticated, and now this happens... :-( > The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started > > treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why are you heating the water for cold water fish? Goldfish don't need a > heater. I asked my husband if the temperature was set for goldfish (as opposed to tropical fish). He insisted that it was. But thank you. I will turn off the heater right away. > > In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time "resting" > > in the corner by the heater, but then he periodically swims around and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Again, have you checked the ammonia and nitrite levels in this new set-up? We'll do this as soon as we can get whatever we need to do this tomorrow at the pet store. > Are you doing weekly partial water changes? With the old tank, my husband changed the water frequently. We haven't had this tank very long (only a few weeks or a month), so my husband may not have. Right now, the water is getting really disgusting from the tetracycline tablets and leaving the filter off part of the time. I would like to change the water (at least partially), but I'm afraid that the removing some of the medicine along with the water (which is obviously unavoidable) will make the situation worse. >Did you quarantine the NEW fish > for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish? No. But I don't know if that would have made any difference in this case. The new fish is doing fine. > Is he staying by > > the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having trouble > > fighting the current being generated by the filter, > > How much current is this filter putting out? If it's annoying the fish you > need to slow it down or get another type or a smaller filter. Even when we turn off the filter, he hides by the heater. Thank you so much for your advice. I will turn off the heater right away and check for ammonia and nitrites first thing tomorrow. Another thing is that we have several cats, and the aquarium is in the bathroom and one of the litter boxes is also in the bathroom. Is it possible that some of the ammonia from the litter box could be getting into the air and diffusing into the aquarium water? This was never a problem with the old tank, but there was less surface area. (Both tanks have been covered). Again, thank you. I hope we can save the fish. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > but even when I turn off > > the filter, he stays in the corner. The other fish is swimming around [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It doesn't sound too good. What was the PH in his old small tank and what > is the PH in this new tank? Could this be old tank syndrome? >> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my >> > question: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we need to >test the water. Surely litmus would do the job?? >> I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot >> > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] >> It doesn't sound too good. What was the PH in his old small tank and what >> is the PH in this new tank? Could this be old tank syndrome? > >> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my > >> > question: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >ammonia > >> and nitrites? We did today, and it's fine. > >After doing some research after I posted, I'm wondering. We'll be checking > >that as soon as we can get to the pet store tomorrow and whatever we need to > >test the water. > > Surely litmus would do the job?? We did get the kit. Thanks for you advice. Best regards, ---Cindy S. >> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my >> > question: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > to > test the water. At the least get a combo test usually using strips or individual tests for ammonia, nitrite, PH and hardness. >> I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot >> > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline >> > tablets. >> >> These will probably kill off your nitrifying bacteria. :-( > Yup. Do you think the tablets were a mistake? We're total novices at this > (obviously). The one fish was fine in the 1 gallon tank for a year. We got > a > tank that was presumably bigger, nicer, more sophisticated, and now this > happens... :-( Don't give up! Had you switched from the small tank to the larger one correctly (but you didn't know) it probably would not have happened. You can Google more information on how to set up new tanks, the nitrogen cycle etc. than you can possibly read. :-) The water conditions were probably very different in the old tank than in the new one. This is shocking to a fish's system, then add some ammonia,..... and they become easy prey to disease such as fin rots and funguses. Also, GF don't need heat. I can't say of the tabs were a mistake since the fish is believed to suffer a bacterial infection. >> The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started >> > treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Why are you heating the water for cold water fish? Goldfish don't need a >> heater. > I asked my husband if the temperature was set for goldfish (as opposed to > tropical fish). He insisted that it was. But thank you. I will turn off > the > heater right away. You can remove it from the tank. I have goldfish outside here in zone 6 and they live right through the winter in water that drops to 39F (sometimes lower) at the bottom on the ponds and pools. >> > In the last 2 days, he seems to be spending an awful lot of time > "resting" [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >> Are you doing weekly partial water changes? > With the old tank, my husband changed the water frequently. We haven't had > this tank very long (only a few weeks or a month), so my husband may not > have. PARTIAL water changes are needed weekly, or daily if you have ammonia or nitrites in the water. DO NOT DISTURB the gravel or filter when you do these PARTIAL changes. The good bacteria are trying to establish themselves and that would stop them or slow them down. Gravel is cleaned later with a gravel vac. Right now, the water is getting really disgusting from the > tetracycline tablets and leaving the filter off part of the time. I would > like to change the water (at least partially), but I'm afraid that the > removing some of the medicine along with the water (which is obviously > unavoidable) will make the situation worse. I think the meds really screwed up your tank. They killed off the needed good bacteria before your tank was even cycled. What a mess! :-( You can start doing partial water changes twice a day to remove this mess....... >>Did you quarantine the NEW fish >> for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish? > > No. But I don't know if that would have made any difference in this case. > The new fish is doing fine. The new fish could be carrying any number of parasites or diseases. I recently (to protect myself I wont mention the name of the chain store) bought some fancy goldfish from a reputable place and they had COSTIA! They sickened and had to be treated. A few didn't survive. The store replaced them. Had they not been quarantined it could have spread to all my fish. A real nightmare to contemplate. Just something to keep in mind as your fish hobby grows. >> Is he staying by >> > the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you >> need to slow it down or get another type or a smaller filter. > Even when we turn off the filter, he hides by the heater. As I said it doesn't sound good. Between the medication and (I'm sure) drastic water change he's not in good shape. I would start TONIGHT to do some partial water changes to remove the meds and I'm sure ammonia and/or nitrites building up in this tank. > Thank you so much for your advice. I will turn off the heater right away > and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > into > the aquarium water? No. Don't worry about that happening. This was never a problem with the old tank, but there > was less surface area. (Both tanks have been covered). > Again, thank you. I hope we can save the fish. > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. Let me know what happens after you test the water tomorrow. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: NEW PAGE: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > >> > Hi! I'm relatively new to keeping an aquarium with fish, and here's my > >> > question: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > At the least get a combo test usually using strips or individual tests for > ammonia, nitrite, PH and hardness. My husband is at the pet shop as I type this, buying the test kit. > >> I phoned the pet shop, and he was diagnosed with fin and tail rot > >> > and I am now on day 3 of 5 of treating the aquarium with tetracycline [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Don't give up! I seem to have a big emotional investment in keeping that little fish alive. We had to euthanize our nearly 15-year-old dog the day before Thanksgiving, and my mother has developed some serious health problems. I know in the grand scheme of things, this is "only a goldfish," but if this fish dies in addition to these other things, I'll be really devastated. >Had you switched from the small tank to the larger one > correctly (but you didn't know) it probably would not have happened. You [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > say of the tabs were a mistake since the fish is believed to suffer a > bacterial infection. With the last few hours, the fish has stopped hiding so much and is now swimming face first downwards. My husband just phoned me on the cell phone. The lady at the pet shop thinks he now has swim bladder problems. My husband will be now purchasing the appropriate medication to treat that. > >> The sick fish seemed to be doing better as soon as I started > >> > treatment but then I noticed he was in the corner by the heater, by the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > they live right through the winter in water that drops to 39F (sometimes > lower) at the bottom on the ponds and pools. The heater is now history. > >> Are you doing weekly partial water changes? We will start. > > With the old tank, my husband changed the water frequently. We haven't had > > this tank very long (only a few weeks or a month), so my husband may not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and that would stop them or slow them down. Gravel is cleaned later with a > gravel vac. Thank you. > Right now, the water is getting really disgusting from the > > tetracycline tablets and leaving the filter off part of the time. I would [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > good bacteria before your tank was even cycled. What a mess! :-( You can > start doing partial water changes twice a day to remove this mess....... But today was only day 4 of 5 of the medication. Is it safe to stop using the tetracycline? > >>Did you quarantine the NEW fish > >> for at least 14 days before exposing him to your old fish? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > real nightmare to contemplate. Just something to keep in mind as your fish > hobby grows. I will not make this mistake again. > >> Is he staying by > >> > the heater for warmth? Is he tired? I thought maybe he was having [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > some partial water changes to remove the meds and I'm sure ammonia and/or > nitrites building up in this tank. We initiated the water changes this morning. > Let me know what happens after you test the water tomorrow. Yes, I will, and thank you so much for your support. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > "Koi-lo" <Invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message >> Don't give up! Brevity snips....... > I seem to have a big emotional investment in keeping that little fish > alive. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in > addition to these other things, I'll be really devastated. I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your dog and your mother's ill health. But do keep in mind that sometimes fish die no matter what we do. And they sometimes die for no apparent reason we can see or find. I just had a real cute orange and white telescope eye goldfish stop eating, isolate itself, then in less than 48 hours it died. This was in a well established 55g tank. There were no parasites, fin rots or any evidence of injury or disease. I > can't >> say of the tabs were a mistake since the fish is believed to suffer a >> bacterial infection. > With the last few hours, the fish has stopped hiding so much and is now > swimming face first downwards. My husband just phoned me on the cell > phone. > The lady at the pet shop thinks he now has swim bladder problems. My > husband > will be now purchasing the appropriate medication to treat that. There is no medication to treat that, if it is indeed swim-bladder disease. It looks like that shop will keep selling you meds and taking your money....... > The heater is now history. I going to guess it was the same clueless person who sold you the meds that also sold you a heater for GF. Please do not ask the people who work in these stores for information. You will do better asking HERE or searching the web for information. >> I think the meds really screwed up your tank. They killed off the needed >> good bacteria before your tank was even cycled. What a mess! :-( You > can >> start doing partial water changes twice a day to remove this mess....... > But today was only day 4 of 5 of the medication. Is it safe to stop using > the tetracycline? Google some of these common antibiotics and you will see that most are now useless from overmedication for years and years. Unfortunately they can and sometimes do work all to well to kill what we don't want them to kill. Go ahead and use it another day, then start your water changes. Had they not been quarantined it could have spread to all my fish. > A >> real nightmare to contemplate. Just something to keep in mind as your > fish >> hobby grows. > I will not make this mistake again. The new fish may be immune to the "problem" your old fish has, after all your old fish had no exposure to other fish and fish diseases. He was a prime target with a weak immune system. Always quarantine new fish and as a precaution treat them all with something like Quick-Cure or Aquara-Sol. Parasites are very common in the store systems. Not because no one cares but because the turnover is so great at the shops and wholesalers. New parasites come in constantly. As far as I'm concerned *all* the fish I buy have parasites. >> Let me know what happens after you test the water tomorrow. > > Yes, I will, and thank you so much for your support. > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: NEW PAGE: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > > "Koi-lo" <Invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message > >> Don't give up! [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 55g tank. There were no parasites, fin rots or any evidence of injury or > disease. I'm sorry to hear that. > There is no medication to treat that, if it is indeed swim-bladder disease. > It looks like that shop will keep selling you meds and taking your > money....... I tried feeding the fish the inside of a pea. He was trying to eat it, but it's not clear if he succeeded or not. > > The heater is now history. > > I going to guess it was the same clueless person who sold you the meds that > also sold you a heater for GF. Please do not ask the people who work in > these stores for information. You will do better asking HERE or searching > the web for information. I agree. And on that note...After reading the goldfish book, my husband and I have concluded that we need to set up a hospital tank. We don't want to make any mistakes. We brought out the old 1-gallon aquarium (where the little fish lived happily for the past year). All that year, my husband had been using tap water. Now, I see from my reading that we weren't supposed to be doing that but that if we let the tap water sit for 24 hours, the chlorine will dissipate into the air. Is that correct? Or should I go to the store and buy tablets to eliminate the chlorine? Or should I buy a Brita water filter? Or should I use bottled water? I'm just thinking to myself that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance... After the water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just dump him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water from the new aquarium to go with him? Shall I put him in a plastic bag filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank? Shall I put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days). Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive. Thank you again (everyone) for all your help. Best regards, ---Cindy S. clean fresh water is EVERYTHING to any fish. GF are dirty fish and need MORE water than other fish. a hospital or quarantine tanks should be 40 gallon rubbermaid tub rather than a 1 gallon tank. when a fish is sick it is MOSTLY fresh water that helps the fish recover. in fact, the tub to tub method is excellent for this. http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#TUB_TO_TUB aerating water with chlorine MAY do the trick, but if you have chloramine, it wont. use dechlor. be sure to match the temperature of the new water to the old water.. sudden colder water can make the fish sick.. often with ich. so if the temperature is the same, just move the fish over. read the section on uses of salt. http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#salt most people overfeed GF. they dont eat a lot per day. you need the highest quality food you can find, the kind with little to no "grains".. no corn, no wheat. Ingrid >I agree. And on that note...After reading the goldfish book, my husband and >I have concluded that we need to set up a hospital tank. We brought out the old 1-gallon aquarium (where the >little fish lived happily for the past year). All that year, my husband had >been using tap water. Now, I see from my reading that we weren't supposed [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Best regards, >---Cindy S. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the recommendations I make. AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE Thank you. Best regards, Cynthia. > clean fresh water is EVERYTHING to any fish. GF are dirty fish and need MORE water > than other fish. a hospital or quarantine tanks should be 40 gallon rubbermaid tub [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > any of the recommendations I make. > AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE Just to reiterate what Ingrid said, pre-treating tap water is essential. Several products remove chlorine as well as chloramine. If you don't know which your municipal water system uses, it doesn't hurt to treat tap water for both (chloramines don't dissipate over time like chlorine). I use Prime by Seacham. An excellent product if you can find it. Most pet stores should carry it. The treated replacement water can be used right away or stored for later use. Don't bother with filtered or bottled water. It's an added expense that shouldn't be necessary. [snip] > water filter? Or should I use bottled water? I'm just thinking to myself > that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance... Yep. But you're not changing out all that much water. It's not like you're doing a 100% water change. 20% weekly should be sufficient. After the > water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to > transfer the fish back to the old tank. But I know better than to just > dump > him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water > from the new aquarium to go with him? If you've matched the parameters fairly closely (pH, nitrates, etc.) there shouldn't be a problem. However ... Shall I put him in a plastic bag > filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old > tank? It depends on how different the two water sources are. If not that different, you might just try adding a bit of StressCoat, which I usually do anyway with a partial water change except in heavily planted tanks. (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room > temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank? Gravel not needed and probably more trouble than it's worth in a goldfish tank. Shall I > put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days). A little aquarium salt (read package for amount) probably wouldn't hurt. > Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the > tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive. > Thank you again (everyone) for all your help. > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. Don't try to be too exact about matching parameters. Fish generally are pretty tough, and unless you're moving them into really different water parameters, they'll probably be ok. Hang in there. You're doing the best thing you can, seeking information. Good luck - Gail >> There is no medication to treat that, if it is indeed swim-bladder > disease. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I tried feeding the fish the inside of a pea. He was trying to eat it, but > it's not clear if he succeeded or not. I've not had luck with the pea method. I've had GF seem to improve with swim-bladder but they always died in the end. In fact most of them wouldn't eat the peas. It's like oranges now. Some GF love oranges and others wont touch them. You will do better asking HERE or searching >> the web for information. > I agree. And on that note...After reading the goldfish book, my husband > and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > had > been using tap water. Do you have well water or water from a water company? If it contains chlorine you fish could have been poisoned. Our water must sit for 24 hours, be aerated vigorously for 10 to 15 minutes or so, or treated with a dechlor product. We now buy Sodium thiosulfate crystals in the 10lb size bucket and make our own dechlor. Now, I see from my reading that we weren't supposed > to be doing that but that if we let the tap water sit for 24 hours, the > chlorine will dissipate into the air. Is that correct? Yes, unless it contains chlorimines. As your water company. Or should I go to the > store and buy tablets to eliminate the chlorine? Or should I buy a Brita > water filter? Or should I use bottled water? Buy something that removes chlorine and chloromines (sp?). I'm just thinking to myself > that the bottled water may have a different mineral balance... After the > water in the 1-gallon tank has been sitting for 24 hours, I will want to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room > temperature). In my opinion that would be MORE stress. Why not start doing partial water changes on the tank he's in now? Whatever he was exposed to he already caught. But I know better than to just dump > him in. How shall I do this? Shall I remove some of the (disgusting) water > from the new aquarium to go with him? I wouldn't move him. Start the partial water changes. What he needs now is CLEAN WATER. Shall I put him in a plastic bag > filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old > tank? (Both tanks are now at the same temperature actually - room > temperature). Shall I put gravel on the bottom of the 1-gallon tank? Shall > I > put salt? (I know I'm not supposed to feed the fish for 4 days). That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a Band-Aid on a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed again. > Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the > tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive. > Thank you again (everyone) for all your help. > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: NEW PAGE: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > > I tried feeding the fish the inside of a pea. He was trying to eat it, but > > it's not clear if he succeeded or not. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > eat the peas. It's like oranges now. Some GF love oranges and others wont > touch them. The sick fish didn't eat the pea. The other fish did. > Buy something that removes chlorine and chloromines (sp?). Done. I just did another partial water change and treated the water with a tablet to remove the chlorine and chloroamines. > Why not start doing partial water > changes on the tank he's in now? Whatever he was exposed to he already > caught. I did end up leaving him in the regular tank rather than moving him to another tank and stressing him further. > I wouldn't move him. Start the partial water changes. What he needs now is > CLEAN WATER. I did this and this time added the salt. I also changed the filter. > Shall I put him in a plastic bag > > filled with water and let him reacclimate to the temperature in the old [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a skin cancer. The problem is STILL there and will resurface once fed > again. Is there no cure at all? > > Please tell me how to do this. The fish is sitting in the corner of the > > tank, more miserable than ever, but he is still alive. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do. :-( Thanks again. Best regards, --Cindy S. > "Koi-lo" <Invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message >> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a Band-Aid [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is there no cure at all? Not that I'm aware of. It seems to be caused more by an internal deformity of the body than any dietary or bacterial problem. GF after all, should look like Shubunkins or Comets (their natural shape), not hunchback as the fancies ones do. This is a genetic deformity that also deforms their internal organs, the swim bladder being one of them. I have never once had one of these *normal* shaped GF develop a swim bladder problem. >> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do. > > :-( They die on those of us with years of experience....... SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: NEW PAGE: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > > "Koi-lo" <Invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message > >> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a Band-Aid [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > >> Please accept that he may not survive no matter what you do. -------------- My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium. I have been doing partial water changes every day, but the water doesn't seem to look any cleaner (it's still all discolored from the tetracycline). My husband wants to put the remaining fish in the 1 gallon aquarium (only long enough to allow him to scrub out the bigger aquarium). I told him that I thought it would be too stressful for the fish and also that any good bacteria that had grown on the gravel in the meantime would be destroyed. He also wants to get another fish ASAP, and he thinks I'm crazy to insist that we quarantine any new fish for 2 weeks. In truth, even if we had quarantined the current fish for 2 weeks, the situation with the other fish would have happened. We've had this new fish for more than 2 weeks, and and he/she still seems perfectly healthy. My husband thinks the reason the first fish died was because we "killed him with kindness," and told me that if I hadn't been insistent on putting the tetracycline in the tank, he would have still been alive. Then, alternately, he will say that it was his own fault the fish died because he overfed him (I don't think he did really overfeed him. He put a few extra fish flakes in the tank a few times). We're just very distraught because we had the original fish in a 1 gallon tank, did everything wrong, including not neutralizing the chlorine in the tap water, and the fish survived beautifully for over a year. Then, we moved him into a bigger tank with supposedly optimal conditions, and now he's dead. So, what's next? I didn't want to get any other fish for a while. My husband told me as far as he's concerned, the quarantine is unnecessary. He says he plans to go to the pet store on Sunday (5 days from now), get a new fish, and dump him/her in the tank (after allowing him/her to acclimate to the water temperature for several minutes first). How and when should we introduce a new fish? (I agree in this particular instance that the 14-day quarantine may be unwarranted because our current fish and the new fish could easily have been together in the tank at the pet store). Best regards, ---Cindy S. > So, what's next? I haven't followed the whole story, but it sounds like some of my early fish keeping efforts in the 60's. I'm very sorry that your fish died, especially because you were attached to it and had some other griefs to deal with. As I understand it you now have a 10-gallon aquarium with one goldfish and also a 1 gallon aquarium. If that is so, I'd just carry on with one goldfish in the 10 gallon for a few months at least. The 1 gallon can be used to raise some snails, and in distant future you may find other uses for it. Do a few 30% water changes every 3 days or so to get the medicines out, and let your filter adjust. Please google aquarium cycling if you have not done so. The healthy bacteria in your aquarium and filter will need to re-establish after the medicines, and you may experience a "cycle". Regular (weekly?) 30% water changes may mitigate any ammonia or nitrite excess during this cycle. If you have fluorescent lighting or some daylight, then adding live plants would be a good idea. Hornwort, Java moss, Elodea/ Anacharis... They absorb fish waste while growing, look good and give the goldfish something to nibble on :) . The goldfish may eat all the plants, but that's ok too. Good luck! Steve > My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium. I have > been doing partial water changes every day, but the water doesn't seem to > look any cleaner (it's still all discolored from the tetracycline). Which is one reason I don't use this medication. It's not only pretty much useless from overuse, but also hard to remove. If you want to bite the bullet you can redo the whole tank and start over. If you do, you will have to watch the ammonia and nitrites all over again. My > husband wants to put the remaining fish in the 1 gallon aquarium (only > long > enough to allow him to scrub out the bigger aquarium). I told him that I > thought it would be too stressful for the fish and also that any good > bacteria that had grown on the gravel in the meantime would be destroyed. This is true. But if the Tet' really made a total mess of the tank let him go ahead and do it. He > also wants to get another fish ASAP, and he thinks I'm crazy to insist > that > we quarantine any new fish for 2 weeks. Explain to him how and why people quarantine fish. Clean the larger tank, cycle it with the fish you now have. Keep the 1g running for a quarantine take. If you can afford it get that produce they call Bio Spira to help with the cycling in both. Also, treat all new fish for parasites. I use Aquara-Sol or Quick-Cure, both are under $3.00. Do this while they're in quarantine. In truth, even if we had quarantined > the current fish for 2 weeks, the situation with the other fish would have > happened. We've had this new fish for more than 2 weeks, and and he/she [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > still > been alive. No one can know for sure why your older fish perished. If he was in that 1g tank and hadn't outgrown it in a year he must have had something wrong, some problem, to start with. Healthy GF grow rapidly if well fed. Then, alternately, he will say that it was his own fault the > fish died because he overfed him (I don't think he did really overfeed > him. > He put a few extra fish flakes in the tank a few times). That's not likely the reason at all......... We're just very > distraught because we had the original fish in a 1 gallon tank, did > everything wrong, including not neutralizing the chlorine in the tap > water, > and the fish survived beautifully for over a year. Then, we moved him into > a > bigger tank with supposedly optimal conditions, and now he's dead. If you didn't neutralize the tap water that must mean you just topped the 1g tank off and didn't do partial changes?!?!?! He may not have been as healthy as you think he was. I don't say this to be unkind but many beginners don't realize there's a problem until the fish is too far gone to save. A healthy GF would have outgrown a 1g tank long before a year passed. What's next? I didn't want to get any other fish for a while. My husband > told me as far as he's concerned, the quarantine is unnecessary. May I ask? Is this HIS hobby or yours? Perhaps you should get another 10g tank (or larger if possible) and do it the correct way. Let him do as he wishes with his tank and fish. He says he > plans to go to the pet store on Sunday (5 days from now), get a new fish, > and dump him/her in the tank (after allowing him/her to acclimate to the > water temperature for several minutes first). I think you need a tank of your own. How and when should we > introduce a new fish? It doesn't seem to matter as your husband will do as he pleases no matter what happens to the fish, or what's best for them. (I agree in this particular instance that the 14-day > quarantine may be unwarranted because our current fish and the new fish > could easily have been together in the tank at the pet store). > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. If the new fish is from the same store on a flow-through system then it wont matter much. But what about cycling the tank? Why risk 2 fish when 1 will do it - unless you use something like Bio Spira (costs around $15). SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > My little fish died. I'm so sorry about your fish. It is wonderful that you cared so much for the fish. You are a kind-hearted soul. Linda and the zoo. If you want more help with the fish I suggest you join the Puregold fish list http://groups.google.com/group/Puregold ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the recommendations I make. AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE > My little fish died. So, now we have only 1 fish in the aquarium. [snip] I'm sorry your fish didn't make it. Your original fish survived for over a year in less than optimal conditions, but chances are good it was stressed and as soon as conditions changed (new fish, new tank, new water) its immune system couldn't handle the stress. Mostly likely that's why it got sick and died, not because of overfeeding, or medicating. You seem to have a good handle on how to treat fish. I would continue doing partial water changes and eventually the remaining drugs will be out of the tank. Have you put charcoal in the filter? That usually will clear up the remaining medications. I avoid those expensive cartridges; instead I buy a small media bag (available at Petsmart etc.) and a box of activated charcoal (same source). When I need to use charcoal, it's simple to put some in a media bag and remove it when the problem is solved. The media bag rinses easily and can be reused. At this point, it sounds like your husband isn't willing to follow advice about quarantine. To keep peace in the house, maybe it's best to just let him get another fish. Hope for the best. Some of us (and I do include myself in that) need to learn lessons the hard way before we truly learn. You might get lucky and the two new fish will do fine. Good luck! Gail >> > "Koi-lo" <Invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message >> >> That will not cure swim-bladder problems. All it does is put a [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >Best regards, >---Cindy S. who wears the pants in your house?? [snip] > who wears the pants in your house?? Your comment above was unnecessary. Marriage is a compromise. Cindy was doing her best for her fish. Her decisions might not be your decisions or mine, but I'm not so perfect that I'm a candidate for godhood. Are you? Gail Bottom posted. > [snip] >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Gail Squirrel might have mean't the opposite as even I seemed to take in from cindy's talk that her husband is TOO bossy and might even be a know it all, it might be appropriate for cindy to be bossy towards her husband about this as this is her baby. If you're right gail I apologize for this over-defense of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or whatever but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later! From: "Daniel Morrow" <videoman@ccountry.net> Subject: Re: Black moor resting by heater Date: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:02 PM If you're right gail I apologize for this over-defense of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or whatever but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later! ====================================== Why don't you check the headers before making such a nasty comment on a NG? If you don't even know what a header is ask someone to teach you. The person named Squirrel isn't even in the USA. How insulting can you be? I'm starting to wonder if you're one of THEM. Learn to check headers before insulting people you don't even know. Here, for your education and information is Squirrel's header: OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre OrgID: APNIC Address: PO Box 2131 City: Milton StateProv: QLD PostalCode: 4064 Country: AU ReferralServer: whois://whois.apnic.net NetRange: 222.0.0.0 - 222.255.255.255 CIDR: 222.0.0.0/8 NetName: APNIC8 NetHandle: NET-222-0-0-0-1 Parent: NetType: Allocated to APNIC NameServer: NS1.APNIC.NET NameServer: NS3.APNIC.NET NameServer: NS4.APNIC.NET NameServer: NS-SEC.RIPE.NET NameServer: TINNIE.ARIN.NET Comment: This IP address range is not registered in the ARIN database. Comment: For details, refer to the APNIC Whois Database via Comment: WHOIS.APNIC.NET or http://www.apnic.net/apnic-bin/whois2.pl Comment: ** IMPORTANT NOTE: APNIC is the Regional Internet Registry Comment: for the Asia Pacific region. APNIC does not operate networks Comment: using this IP address range and is not able to investigate Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse RegDate: 2003-02-13 Updated: 2005-05-20 SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> >From: "Daniel Morrow" <videoman@ccountry.net> >Subject: Re: Black moor resting by heater [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >RegDate: 2003-02-13 >Updated: 2005-05-20 dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not even mentioned > dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not > even mentioned ======================== The header comes straight *copied and pasted* from you first message: OrgName: Asia Pacific Network Information Centre OrgID: APNIC Address: PO Box 2131 City: Milton StateProv: QLD PostalCode: 4064 Country: AU ReferralServer: whois://whois.apnic.net NetRange: 222.0.0.0 - 222.255.255.255 <--yours! Your ISP may be a local or independent but your message to Usenet came through the above service. You are not sending your messages from a USA based ISP as I am. Here (below) is more information on your service. Mr. Morrow didn't take the time to check. My messages originate in TN and go through an ISP in MD here in the eastern USA. It's right in my headers if anyone cares to check. Comment: ** IMPORTANT NOTE: APNIC is the Regional Internet Registry Comment: for the Asia Pacific region. APNIC does not operate networks Comment: using this IP address range and is not able to investigate Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> >> dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not >> even mentioned [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Comment: spam or abuse reports relating to these addresses. For more >Comment: help, refer to http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/abuse when I first posted I said I was from NZ, those headers are austraolian >>> dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not >>> even mentioned [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > when I first posted I said I was from NZ, those headers are > austraolian ================================== Take a LOOK at your own headers. If you don't understand how to read them call your ISP and ask. You may live in NZ but AU is where your messages left from. When you send something in NZ it's obviously sent to a server in AU and leaves from there. I don't live in MD but that's where my messages ultimately leave from. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> Koi lo aka carol is so screwed up by the numerous free news servers and remailers she uses to cover her tracks she can not keep up with what she posted where, when and by what name anymore.....Gets old trying to hide yur tracks and screw up don't it Carol....YOu have screwed up at least 3 times n the rec.ponds by not changing signatures or all the other contrivances you use......and they all point right back to you Carol the idiotic imbecil who suffers from a severe case of paranoia.........BOOOOOOO, Look out it may be Jabriol! >><> >><>"Squirrel" <tribades@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >><>AU and leaves from there. I don't live in MD but that's where my messages >><>ultimately leave from. Signature\\\|/// ( @ @ ) -----------oOOo(_)oOOo--------------- oooO ---------( )----Oooo---------------- \ ( ( ) \_) ) / (_/ The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates.... Bottom posted. > Koi lo aka carol is so screwed up by the numerous free news servers > and remailers she uses to cover her tracks she can not keep up with [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >>> don't live in MD but that's where my messages <>ultimately leave >>> from. I find it interesting that carol likes to always look like she was betrayed by someone since after all between me and her she betrayed me. I actually was lead to believe by her and maxx polare (maxx did one thing right though - she gave me the extra power to filter out the garbage carol puts out by getting me the newsproxy download address) that carol was being netstalked, etc. and that she was the victim and that you roy were jabriol or something like that. Now I am aligned with roy, carol can go stuff her sock puppets as far as I care and quite frankly carol I hope you enjoy talking to yourself as I won't hear a thing you say henceforth. Carol's claim that people can simply check headers to know the truth is bogus, it's actually easier by manyfold for everyone to digitally sign every one of their messages than it is to check headers all of the time. You see carol - the truth is that your so called magic method to know the truth is just plain too hard and I guess now you will talk about how much of imbeciles we all are because we are too lazy to check headers. But you know what carol - that fact just shows how mentally ill you are. I know mentally ill people and one of the chief characteristics of every one of them is how everyone other than them is wrong. Face it carol - approximately 5 billion people on this planet can't be wrong - your solution is not a solution at all as no one will do it as it is just too hard. Good luck all, and a friendly greetings to roy. Let's all hope that jabriel doesn't kill carol-ann, despite her bitterness to anyone who differs in opinion to her I do not wish her to be murdered in any way, let's just say I hope she tries a medication soon that has just come out so she recovers even better. Hmmmm, I hope she is willing to try new medicines - you're not afraid of that are you carol-ann? >>>> dunno where you got those headers, I am with completely diff ISP not >>>> even mentioned [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >AU and leaves from there. I don't live in MD but that's where my messages >ultimately leave from. frankly I dont care where they come from, I was merely confirming I came from NZ >>ultimately leave from. > > frankly I dont care where they come from, I was merely confirming I > came from NZ =================== I know *you* come from NZ. That shows in your header as well. :-) SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> >>>ultimately leave from. >> >> frankly I dont care where they come from, I was merely confirming I >> came from NZ >=================== >I know *you* come from NZ. That shows in your header as well. :-) some are not as worldly wise as you ;) >>>>ultimately leave from. >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > some are not as worldly wise as you ;) =================================] Isn't it your summer there? Or seasons are reversed. It's a bit past mid-winter here. We're expecting the 20s F tonight so it looks like the fireplace will be getting a workout. The daffodils are just starting to peep above the soil. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> >>>>>ultimately leave from. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >fireplace will be getting a workout. The daffodils are just starting to >peep above the soil. it is in mid to late twenties here, pretrty much the height of summer, long evenings are great, but I wasnt born for either extreme in temp >Bottom posted. >> [snip] [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >of squirrel (I don't remember if squirrel is a carol sock-puppet or whatever >but I feel his/her opinion was misread). Good luck and later! I (female from NZ) felt Cindy did everything her appearing bossy husband said despite it beiong contrary to advice given by others, to the point of the fish possibly enduring suffering.' ' >>Bottom posted. >>> [snip] [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > husband said despite it beiong contrary to advice given by others, to > the point of the fish possibly enduring suffering.' Unlike many newbies who post, Cindy seemed genuinely willing to listen to and respond to advice given to her, and to seek more information (by buying books). That's rare, and should be appreciated and respected. The problem is suppose the husband was getting entirely DIFFERENT advice from his LFS? And bad advice at that? We've all seen that happen; it's happened to most of us. Given their experience with the fish (apparently thrived for a year in what WE know was less than optimal conditions), given perhaps contradictory information from us and their LFS, given that information from the Internet is not always trustworthy, I don't blame the husband for seeking his own path. I wish he HAD taken our advice but my point was to support Cindy, not make judgments about her family. Having said that, I was being judgmental about Squirrel's comment and that was unnecessary. For that lapse, I do apologize to Squirrel. Gail > >Bottom posted. > >> [snip] [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > husband said despite it beiong contrary to advice given by others, to > the point of the fish possibly enduring suffering.' ------------ To clarify the situation: One day about a year ago, my husband came home from work with a 1 gallon aquarium and 2 fish that someone from work apparently didn't want anymore. At the time, I didn't want an aquarium, seeing that we already had a dog and 4 cats, but he insisted on keeping it and said he would be solely responsible for it. One of the two fish died right away. He went to the local Petco to find out what happened (and with the intention of replacing the fish). The clerk explained to him that a 1-gallon tank couldn't possibly sustain 2 fish and not to replace the fish unless he intended to get a larger aquarium. So, he did not replace the fish and just kept the 1 fish in the aquarium for an entire year, taking sole responsibility for the fish, feeding the fish every day, changing the water etc. Then, maybe a month ago, he felt that he wanted to move to a larger aquarium and get a second fish. That's when he got the 10-gallon aquarium kit, set up the aquarim according to the instructions that came with it, and got a second fish. He was taking care of both fish for several weeks, and they seemed fine. Then, one day (about 2 weeks ago), it seemed like the original fish was having trouble swimming. I looked at it and saw that its tail and fins looked ragged and it just looked ill. That's when I started doing some internet searches for information. I phoned the Petco, and they told me the fish had fin and tail rot and to treat the tank with tetracycline, and that's also the same time I found this group. That was the point that I first took interest in and responsibility for the fish and determined to try to save the original fish (but unfortunately failed). At my request, my husband made an extra trip to PetCo to get the water testing kit plus better fish food (and the goldfish book). He turned off the heater when I asked him to (without an argument). I made 2 more trips to PetCo to get the antichlorine tablets and the salt. All in all, between the two of us, we made 3 or 4 trips to Petco and spent over $50 trying to save the fish. And after we did all that and the fish still died, my husband basically said "Enough is enough. The tank is a murky mess from the tetracycline. We've spent a fortune on supplies. We're talking about a $2 goldfish here. Let's stop all this nonsense and just get another fish." So, in summary, the fish was his from the beginning. The hobby was his. I had zero interest in any of this until 2 weeks ago when I decided to try to save the fish. My husband went along with all of it, but simply reached a point where he said enough was enough. He previously stated he was going to replace the fish tomorrow, but sometimes, his bark is worse than his bite. I would be willing to bet the fish will not be replaced until I agree to it, and he has agreed to ask the clerk at Petco if the fish tanks are treated for parasites before buying another fish and dumping it in our tank. He has threatened to scrub the tetracycline out of our current tank, but hasn't done it yet (after I warned him about disturbing the biosphere). But the reality is, when you're married, you pick your battles. I'm glad he's not pushing the issue, but if he did go to the store and replace the fish, I certainly wouldn't divorce him over it. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > ------------ > Then, maybe a month ago, he felt that he wanted to move to a larger [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > fish had fin and tail rot and to treat the tank with tetracycline, and > that's also the same time I found this group. I'm glad you found us. :-) And PLEASE do not ask advice from the clerks in those stores. 99.9% of them are clueless and just want to sell you something. Even some websites are only looking to sell you some product and make money. The tank is a murky mess from the tetracycline. We've > spent a fortune on supplies. We're talking about a $2 goldfish here. Let's > stop all this nonsense and just get another fish." I can see how he'd feel that way..... > So, in summary, the fish was his from the beginning. The hobby was his. I > had zero interest in any of this until 2 weeks ago when I decided to try [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and he has agreed to ask the clerk at Petco if the fish tanks are treated > for parasites before buying another fish and dumping it in our tank. Treat them for parasites anyway. The clerk may not know or give you the wrong information. He has > threatened to scrub the tetracycline out of our current tank, but hasn't > done it yet (after I warned him about disturbing the biosphere). But the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. Please let us know what happens Cindy. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy/Aquarium-Page4.html http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> snip for brevity > I'm glad you found us. :-) And PLEASE do not ask advice from the clerks in > those stores. 99.9% of them are clueless and just want to sell you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I can see how he'd feel that way..... snip > Treat them for parasites anyway. The clerk may not know or give you the > wrong information. > > Please let us know what happens Cindy. ----------- What happened is that my husband went to Petco yesterday and bought another fish. Apparently, he asked the clerk about treating the fish for parasites. The clerk said she didn't know what he was talking about, that she never heard of such a thing. She told him that all he needed to do was to acclimate the fish by keeping it in the plastic bag for 15 minutes submersed in the tank, then dump it in. She did at least advise him to avoid mixing the aquarium water from Petco with the water in our tank. My husband insists that the clerk at Petco is the authority here and that we need to go with the advice from the *experts* at Petco and not what people are telling me on Usenet. <giant sigh>. Then, he started complaining that the tank is still murky from the tetracycline (it's gradually getting clearer with the daily water changes, but he claims it's getting worse...I think he's imagining things....). He said that I should ask you guys how to get rid of the tetracycline in the tank. Regarding the new fish, since my husband did not buy any product to kill potential parasites, I decided not to quarantine the new fish (and thus avoid yet another potential argument). So, I threw caution to the wind and followed the instructions from the clerk at Petco, and now I'm hoping for the best and hoping that the new fish didn't bring in some disease or parasites, especially since the other fish has grown in the short time we've had her and seems to be thriving, although I have noticed that she seems to have lost some of her black coloration since we've had her and is a bit more gold. The new fish is also a black moor but seems to be a different variety. My son deliberately picked out the smallest one in the Petco tank "so that it could grow." The tail seems extremely short and is in 4 segments, unlike the other black moor whose tail is long and luxurious and has a 3-segment tail. Anyway, we'll see what happens. I keep checking the tank to ensure that neither fish is showing signs of distress. So far so good, but we've only had the new fish for a little over 12 hours... Thank you everyone for your help. I will keep you posted. Best regards, ---Cindy S. > What happened is that my husband went to Petco yesterday and bought another > fish. Apparently, he asked the clerk about treating the fish for parasites. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Best regards, > ---Cindy S. I also just equalize new fishes' temperature then put them into the community aquarium, discarding the pet store water. I know better, but my quarantine aquariums have become permanent fish homes. With tropical fish I've been getting away with this scott-free for several years, and it has the advantage that the new fish have a stress-free life in the big aquarium. As to treating new fish with chemicals to get rid of (imaginary?) parasites, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Why stress the fish unnecessarily? Two goldfish in 10 gallons really is too much, so keep up with weekly partial water changes. And start saving for a 30 gallon aquarium :) . Happy fish keeping! Steve > I also just equalize new fishes' temperature then put them into the > community aquarium, discarding the pet store water. I know better, but my > quarantine aquariums have become permanent fish homes. This happens with many of us. ;-) With tropical > fish I've been getting away with this scott-free for several years, and it > has the advantage that the new fish have a stress-free life in the big > aquarium. Quarantine tanks, if set up properly, are not stressful for the fish. An empty tank with nothing but a filter intake may be! > As to treating new fish with chemicals to get rid of (imaginary?) Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of ick for instance? Do you own a microscope? My favorite fish store was selling fish infested with gillflukes several years ago. They caught the infestation themselves, admitted it and replaced the goldfish that died (in my quarantine tank). The second problem was Costia! A very tiny parasite you can't see with the naked eye, but very deadly. The chain stores are sensitive to complaints of their customers, especially when you hand them a slide with the parasites under a cover-glass. They replaced those fish as well. Every fish you buy isn't going to have parasites but what about those that do? You can lose every fish you have by purchasing ONE infested fish that could have been quarantined and treated. They will replace those they sold you that died but they will not replace the rest of your valuable fish. > parasites, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Why stress the fish > unnecessarily? How is treating them for parasites stressful? Are you aware of the stress they and you will endure if they *DO* have something like flukes or costia and you add them to your community tank? :-( > Two goldfish in 10 gallons really is too much, so keep up with weekly > partial water changes. And start saving for a 30 gallon aquarium :) . > Happy fish keeping! > Steve SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of > ick for instance? ... > > How is treating them for parasites stressful? WRT ich specifically, I've come to understand from this newsgroup and other reading, that healthy, unstressed fish ward off the parasite and are not affected. Stressing fish with a chemical dip or bath might be just the recipe for making fish susceptible to ich and other things? My fishkeeping hobby in the last 15 years has been much influenced by reading a book by Stephen Spotte about fish and invertebrate culture. He demonstrated quite conclusively that most common fish ailments are brought on by stress. Minimizing stress leads to healthy fish. Spotte was a great proponent of biological filtration (absence of ammonia/ nitrite leads to low stress) when it was not widely understood. Steve >> Parasites are not imaginary and they can be deadly. You never heard of >> ick for instance? ... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not affected. Stressing fish with a chemical dip or bath might be just the > recipe for making fish susceptible to ich and other things? I'm not talking about baths and dips Steve. I'm talking about using something like Quick-Cure, Clout or AquraSol that you add to the water. Even healthy fish can become stressed and of the parasites are already there (because no one treated them) they're sitting ducks for disaster. > My fishkeeping hobby in the last 15 years has been much influenced by > reading a book by Stephen Spotte about fish and invertebrate culture. He > demonstrated quite conclusively that most common fish ailments are brought > on by stress. I don't disagree. But stress can also be caused by a parasite problem - then you have a runaway merry-go-round. The more the parasites stress the fish the weaker it becomes which allows more parasites to reproduce which causes more stress. That's simplifying it but you get the idea. Better to remove the parasites first, before introducing the fish to your other fish. Minimizing stress leads to healthy fish. Even healthy fish can't ward off some of these parasites. Wait until your fishes first infestation! :-( Just the act of the breeder catching, bagging and shipping the fish to the wholesaler is stressful. Then more stress as the WS catches, bags and ships them to the stores. Then even more stress as the store catches and bags them for you - you bring it home and there's even more stress in different water, a different home, different food, different temperatures, strange fish.... it's a wonder any of them survive. Spotte > was a great proponent of biological filtration (absence of ammonia/ > nitrite leads to low stress) when it was not widely understood. > > Steve Parasites are no respector of health. A hungry fluke will do as much feeding damage to a healthy fish's gill rakers as it will a sick fishes gill rakers. I know this from experience. A hungry tick, louse or mosquito doesn't care if you're 100% healthy or about to die - they fill feed off you just like a costia or ick parasite will feed off the first fish it attaches itself to. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> Fancy GF and koi are selected for other considerations than a good immune system. But given that there are two conditions that lead a fish to disease; stress and HIGH numbers of pathogens. stress can result from lousy or toxic water, lousy or toxic food, not enough food, low oxygen levels, overcrowding, harassment, loud noise, rapidly changing temperatures or other pH, or etc. AND, medications. My ponds have always been healthier for my fish even with more "cooties" because there is less stress of other kinds especially there is no ammonia, no nitrates. Even in well seasoned tanks nitrate levels are always a problem. Ingrid >WRT ich specifically, I've come to understand from this newsgroup and >other reading, that healthy, unstressed fish ward off the parasite and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Steve ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the recommendations I make. AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE ADS AT THE OLD PUREGOLD SITE > Fancy GF and koi are selected for other considerations than a good immune > system. > But given that there are two conditions that lead a fish to disease; > stress and HIGH > numbers of pathogens........ ====================== Parasites aside for a minute as they're not the only problem we can introduce with new fish,...I would rather have any new kio or GF die in quarantine than spread something like KHV or SVC to the rest of my fish. No salt dip or Quick-Cure will cure these diseases. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > > Fancy GF and koi are selected for other considerations than a good immune > > system. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Carolyn Adamo Gulley 3245 North Lamar Road Mount Juliet TN 37122-7806 Phone 615-459-9345 has been caught in various vicious lies! Before plaguing ARJW with her nonsense, she use to plague the Health NG do a google search on Yarrow / windsong / Carol for more details. http://tinyurl.com/99azt http://tinyurl.com/87ow4 http://tinyurl.com/d6t5m http://tinyurl.com/aheek http://tinyurl.com/ck97r http://tinyurl.com/cm3dp http://tinyurl.com/8bscg http://tinyurl.com/7epdg http://tinyurl.com/bya3z When she is best by a man she accuse him of stalking http://tinyurl.com/8wryt She engages people in senseless debates about absolutely nothing. Her intent on ARJW is to slander JW's Before you reply, you may want to ask her a few things or only one. _Where does she get her information? _Can her information be verified? _Is the information up to date? _What is the purpose of her post? To present reliable facts about JW's or sling mud on a religious organization in good standing in almost every country in the world? Ask her for evidence of her claims before proceeding with your conversation with her, if not you may be end up wasting your time and bandwidth on discussing subjects based on fraudulent and fabricated information. This is how she manipulates clueless bystanders in participating with her distributing false information elsewhere? Facts about Carol: *She can never present evidence. *She never reveals the source of her info (because there is none). Her common reply, is: "everybody already knows". If everybody knew, why bring it up? *She always hides her identity. And change her header to avoid killfiles. A TOS offense *She cuts and paste, rewrite postings, and will even forge e-mail addresses ;which her ISP allows her to do. Just ask them: techsupport@direcpc.com If your newsgroups has been victim of Carol's MCP and ECP that is off topic you can report her. Her account is dpc6682112001.direcpc.com and you may report her by calling 1-800-DirecPC, by emailing us at techsupport@direcpc.com, or by writing to: DirecPC Customer Care Center 11717 Exploration Lane Germantown, MD 20876 USA Her use of remailers can still be traced to her account.No American ISP like to be associated with Hate Speech no matter if Hate speech is protected under the First. It affects their commercial interest. Then you can contact your own ISP and have them add them to their block List Direcpc.com Why does Carol behave as she does? Carolyn Adamo Gulley of Mt Juliet Tn. Is a life long underachiever. She did not finish High school in NYC, and lived as a biker gangsters in the 60's and 70's. She claims on her former website that she has 2 failed marriages and blames God for her poor choices. It is alleged that she lost custody of her only son due to substance abuse, (never been proven however). Dumped in TN by her Second husband, Quote-quote, with no place to go. She also has failed attempts at being a JW. She could never attain their moral standards as dictated in the scriptures, and thus been at war with them ever since. This has made her a very mentally unstable woman, her hatred is intense, and due to biker-substance abuse lifestyle, she now needs aid of a pacemaker. By reporting her to her ISP, she is made aware, that she is alone in her insane crusade full of false hoods and forgeries., and that you the reader does not support hate speech against any religion or person. In reply to: Javriol aka Jabriol 24 Jan 2006 19:16:38 -0800, (Jabrio/Javriol) Antonio L. Santana (Manuela): Is this Carol the daughter you raped back in the 70s in Camden NJ Antonio? Or was that Rivas Santana the older girl you told us about? Still chasing after her? What did Tony Jr think of that? Did your 10 years in Trenten State being Mo's wife and now you're back at it, eh? Are you pimping this one too or trying to get her killed to shut her up? But you know Antinio, we really don't care so take your family problems and shuve them where the sun dont' shine................................ Bye bye lamer ------- --------- -------- In reply to: Javriol aka Jabriol: Camden NJ Congragation; 24 Jan 2006 19:16:38 -0800, (Jabriol aka Javriol) Antonio L. Santana/Camden NJ: Javriol accuses daughter Carol who he abused as a 13 year old girl of exposing him but look what he said about his daughter Carols husband: Message-ID: <1121293838.806899.49320@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> From: iksgorkon@gmail.com (an Antonio L Santana NYM/Jabriol/Javriol) Subject: A Max/ Roy Discovery was did you consider it cheating, when your current husband sodmize you grand child because he was black? I bet it will say that you allowed your son to be butt-banged by a fromer biker for cash. and you do know your ISP is now subject to a law suit... so did you cheat on your 2 former husbands... The Woman is Angry because she was never accepted by Jw's for 20 years, because she refused to legally marry the man she it with, after two failure, and being nherself the victim of domestic abuse in NYC. Her first husband busted her up so bad, that she has brain scrambled. All because she would not make her man lunch. ================================================================ ==== In reply to: Javriol aka Jabriol: Camden NJ Congragation; 24 Jan 2006 19:16:38 -0800, (Jabriol aka Javriol) Antonio L. Santana/Camden NJ: Javriol accuses daughter Carol who he abused as a 13 year old girl of exposing him but look what he said about his daughter Carols husband: Message-ID: <1121293838.806899.49320@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> From: iksgorkon@gmail.com (an Antonio L Santana NYM/Jabriol/Javriol) did you consider it cheating, when your current husband sodmize you grand child because he was black? I bet it will say that you allowed your son to be butt-banged by a fromer biker for cash. and you do know your ISP is now subject to a law suit... so did you cheat on your 2 former husbands... The Woman is Angry because she was never accepted by Jw's for 20 years, because she refused to legally marry the man she it with, after two failure, and being nherself the victim of domestic abuse in NYC. Her first husband busted her up so bad, that she has brain scrambled. All because she would not make her man lunch. Phisherman ================================================================ ==== |
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