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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Goldfish / April 2007lethargic goldfish - new tank....
Hello, We've just purchased 8 goldfish and put them in a 50 Litre tank. The tank had been filled for about 2 months, and there are plants in there too. We have a filter that ran for about an hour before the fish were put in the tank. We also used "water ager tap water conditioner" before we put the fish in. 7 of the 8 fish seem very happy - they swim around a lot and rush to the the top when we feed them. The 8th seems to sleep a lot and move quite slowly - although he does move occasionally. He likes to suck on rocks and then spit them out as well. I am worried that he is sick - we've only had him a few days but I am still very worried. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. EA > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. ============================ I'm not familiar with the metric system but do know each goldfish needs at least the equivalent of 10 gallons of water to remain healthy. Goldfish eat a lot and are not small fish. They grow rapidly when healthy. What you buy are youngsters. Have you been doing your weekly partial water changes? Make sure you dechlorinate or de-chloramine the water before adding it to your tank. The temperature of the new water should be almost the same as what's in the tank. Feed them a variety of food and feed them at least twice a day. They're browsers and grazers, not gorgers. You can Google goldfish+care and come up with more information than you ever wanted to know about them.  SignatureRM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> Far too many fish, far too quickly and far too small a tank!!! Your filter is brand new.... not good mate. unless you fed the tank fish food for the 2 months before the fish went in.... then there will be very very very few waste processing bacteria in the tank. Not good now they have to take care of 8 fishes poo!! The fish that looks bad/sick.... he's your canary the rest of the fish will follow quickly you have set yourself up a nightmare..... to solve it 1) feed very lightly 2) partial water change every 1 0r 2 days (remove prob 50% of water) 3) don't clean filter until flow slows (and then only squeeze out in a bucket of aquarium water) I am glad I am not in your shoes anyway! Research 'new tank syndrome' and prepare for ammonia/nitrite hell :) In 3 weeks time if all goes well you'll be able to change to 1/3 partial water changes every week but until that ammonia/nitrite drops...... gotta dilute to save ya fishys! gasping and sitting on bottem are bad bad signs! > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > EA Thanks a lot for the info, I thought I'd done my research - but clearly not well enough =( I hope I can save my fish, I will be very upset if they die! The new tank syndrome sound pretty much like what we've got. We spoke to our pet store and they didn't warn us about any of this, and told us to test the ph levels & add more oxygen. Anyway, thanks again > Thanks a lot for the info, I thought I'd done my research - but > clearly not well enough =( > > I hope I can save my fish, I will be very upset if they die! Do any many partial water changes as necessary to keep the ammonia or nitrites as low as possible. Perhaps you can return a few of the fish, find them new homes or get a larger tank. > The new tank syndrome sound pretty much like what we've got. We spoke > to our pet store and they didn't warn us about any of this, and told > us to test the ph levels & add more oxygen. Neither of which will help much with NTS (new tank syndrome). > Anyway, thanks again SignatureRM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö> Thanks everyone =) We bought some "cycle biological aquarium supplement" which claims to "release massive amounts of beneficial bacteria to mature new aquariums and control ammonia and nitrite levels". We're going to get the ammonia/nitrite test tomorrow (from a different pet store - the one we went to today assured us it was unnecessary). Our sick little fellow is still hanging around the bottom of his tank, but his friends are still healthy. I really hope I can help him get better and keep his friends well, thanks for all of your help! Now that we've bought this bacteria, should we still be doing the partial daily water changes? Thanks! > Far too many fish, far too quickly and far too small a tank!!! > Your filter is brand new.... not good mate. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > > EA The bacteria you have bought is usually more gimmick than saver of the day. If you don't want to do water changes.... then DON't feed!! Fish should be right with a few days of not eating. Do a nice big water change (to dilute the toxic ammonia/nitrite) Add your bacteria in a bottle (would be much better to add a bit of sponge from a filter thats been setup for a while) and hope for best. If you could take out some fish that would be good otherwise keep up the partial waterchanges prob for 2 weeks or so by doing the water changes, you are keeping the fish alive Ammonia and nitrite do PERMANENT damage to fish so reducing it as much as possible NOW means your fish will live longer LATER. I know, that the bottle of bacteria was probably expensive. But ya gotta dilute those toxins. Once you get a result 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite then you can slow the partial water changes down and slowly increase the food fed. :) > Now that we've bought this bacteria, should we still be doing the > partial daily water changes? [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >> >> > EA Firstly, thanks SO much for all your advice - if only you worked at our local pet store! The advice that we've been given by these people has been well intentioned but, apparently, ill informed. To complicate matters further, we spoke to a girl at the pet shop tonight who said that the shop "often has a tank or two out of action for quarantine" and that we may have purchased a sick fish. GAH. Thank goodness these people only sell supplies and not other animals too! So, we're following your advice: - another partial waterchange (the second since my first post) - including gravel vacuum and clean - more "cycle" - the bacteria stuff (other posts in this and other groups have rated it - am keeping my fingers crossed!) - addition of ammo-lock (there has been some debate of the merits of this product, but most people seem to think it's okay as it makes the ammonia less toxic, but doesnt break the cycle) - addition of sea salt (which looks suspiciously like normal sea salt, but the price tag and picture of a fish on the pack tries to convince me otherwise....) - our ammonia levels (pre water change) were at 0.25, and the nitrite was at the same level - although this is bad news for the fish, I think this is good news because they cycle is under way? - quarantine of sick fish (whose condition has deteriorated - he is moving less, and lying on his side) - in half tank water, half tap, treated with all above additives, et cetera - we've also lined up a new tank (approx 100L - which is 4 times the size of the current tank) that we will get our hands on and start "fishless cycling" soon (I may be back to get advice on that soon - if you can tolerate any more annoying questions!) I hope I can save all the fish, I feel horrible that they are suffering because of my ignorance! Thanks again for all your help, we'd have been lost (and our fish crook) without you! do NOT use sea salt for goldfish. get kosher salt with no additives, get the rock salt they use for water softeners with no additives. it should be cheap. Ingrid >- addition of sea salt (which looks suspiciously like normal sea salt, >but the price tag and picture of a fish on the pack tries to convince >me otherwise....) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan Hopefully I've mis-named it - it's called "aqua master - aquarium salt: a natural multipurpose remedy for freshwater fish" What do you think? On Apr 14, 11:26 pm, dr-s...@wi.rr.xx.com wrote: > do NOT use sea salt for goldfish. get kosher salt with no additives, get the rock > salt they use for water softeners with no additives. it should be cheap. Ingrid [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan ahhh.. ok, just expensive. Ingrid >Hopefully I've mis-named it - it's called "aqua master - aquarium >salt: a natural multipurpose remedy for freshwater fish" > >What do you think? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan > Firstly, thanks SO much for all your advice - if only you worked at > our local pet store! The advice that we've been given by these people > has been well intentioned but, apparently, ill informed. No problem at all > To complicate matters further, we spoke to a girl at the pet shop > tonight who said that the shop "often has a tank or two out of action [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > - another partial waterchange (the second since my first post) - > including gravel vacuum and clean Ok so ONLY clean filter if the flow is slowing down, and ideally ya don't want to clean at all for first month or so if possible. Let the tank get a bit scungy, don't worry too much about gravel vac's and cleaning ornaments etc. Partial water changes are the way to remove waste (it all disolves into the fish soup :) > - more "cycle" - the bacteria stuff (other posts in this and other > groups have rated it - am keeping my fingers crossed!) Yep, but remember 'cycle' and other stuff only slows up the cycle a wee bit. Maybe save ya a water change or 2..... but it's expensive for the privilidge. Used to cringe each time I was pressured to sell bacteria to customers..... prefer to hand them a bit of cycled filter media, so much less long term drama. Anyway the good thing about bacteria that seed your tank by falling outta air, coming outta fish guts etc is that it is 'LOCAL' bacteria, suited to YOUR tank and conditions. Bottled bacteria is bred in a lab for what they think is a 'normal' tank. Thats why once you have bred them up in your filter you should be very gentle cleaning it, only ever use a bucket of water drawn from the aquarium. The last thing ya want to do is have to grow them all again :) > - addition of ammo-lock (there has been some debate of the merits of > this product, but most people seem to think it's okay as it makes the > ammonia less toxic, but doesnt break the cycle) Yea thats a strange one, maybe if your water was coming out of the tap with lots of ammonia in it...... I think tho that a water change will work better than ammolock and it's a lot cheaper too!! I realise water changes aren't fun, but really a bottle of de-chlorinator (water-ager) and water changes are all ya need here.... oh yea and patience (heh heh sorry) > - addition of sea salt (which looks suspiciously like normal sea salt, > but the price tag and picture of a fish on the pack tries to convince > me otherwise....) Yea what ya want to do is go buy a bag of swimming pool salt. should be about (Australian) $6 or so for 20kg of the stuff. Chuck it in the shed, hand it out to other fish keepers.... should still be enuf to last ya forever! It is pure salt and often repacked by lfs and sold on at 10,987% markup :-) People ask me if it's safe.... well it's human grade mate and a pure compound so me and a few years using say yes it is! Usually use at about a tablespoon per 20L, just remember when ya water change only add salt for the water you are changing. I find writing down my salt doses helps prevent me overstocking it. Add too much salt and it slows down the cycle (brackish tanks take forever!) Adding more air will speed up bacteria breeding (so make sure water surface is nice and disturbed) > - our ammonia levels (pre water change) were at 0.25, and the nitrite > was at the same level - although this is bad news for the fish, I > think this is good news because they cycle is under way? Yes it means the cycle is happening, with luck the ammonia will soon drop off to 0ppm and the nitrite will slowly spike then fall away to 0ppm over next few weeks. nitrite takes longer to go as bacteria that eat it take longer to breed up. If fish are looking sluggish give them a partial water change, otherwise feed very light and increase amount very slowly. The occasional feed of some shelled frozen green peas keeps goldys chugging alone and healthy inside. > - quarantine of sick fish (whose condition has deteriorated - he is > moving less, and lying on his side) - in half tank water, half tap, > treated with all above additives, et cetera I would move it accross to 90% treated tapwater, but it's not sounding good for him, goldys are tough and can mostly recover but sounds like he has absorbed a bit too much nitrite. Losing 1 isn't too bad, lesson learnt anyway! but that said, good luck to the fella! > - we've also lined up a new tank (approx 100L - which is 4 times the > size of the current tank) that we will get our hands on and start > "fishless cycling" soon (I may be back to get advice on that soon - if > you can tolerate any more annoying questions!) Yep thats a great size tank, much better. As to the fishless cycle, ya works well but remember to try seed it with an existing aquariums filter bacteria, really does speed it up nicely! > I hope I can save all the fish, I feel horrible that they are > suffering because of my ignorance! > > Thanks again for all your help, we'd have been lost (and our fish > crook) without you! Not a problem mate, give yourself a pat on the back for going looking for the answers! If I have learnt one thing about keeping pet fish.... it's that no one person has all the answers. Thats why ya gotta meet a few fishgeeks, and work out what the story is for yaself. Happy Easter peoples! :) >> Firstly, thanks SO much for all your advice - if only you worked at >> our local pet store! The advice that we've been given by these people [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Maybe save ya a water change or 2..... but it's expensive for the > privilidge. Ok so I meant to say 'speeds' up the cycle a bit. dam dyslexia next I'll be going to toga parties dressed as a goat > Used to cringe each time I was pressured to sell bacteria to > customers..... prefer to hand them a bit of cycled filter media, so much [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > Happy Easter peoples! > :) The Cycle product is next to worthless, in my experience. ONLY BioSpira (a refrigerated solution patented by Marineland) clearly works in the manner intended. > Firstly, thanks SO much for all your advice - if only you worked at > our local pet store! The advice that we've been given by these people > has been well intentioned but, apparently, ill informed. And even so, a chunk outta someones established filter (sponge or noodles etc) usually kicks BioSpira's arse as far as a quick cycle is concerned. Either way ya do it (seed the tank), the bacteria needs to be fed to breed up. I usually just use fish food.... but theres a movement to use ammonia as it's easier/cheaper/purer > The Cycle product is next to worthless, in my experience. ONLY BioSpira > (a refrigerated solution patented by Marineland) clearly works in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> our local pet store! The advice that we've been given by these people >> has been well intentioned but, apparently, ill informed. > And even so, a chunk outta someones established filter (sponge or noodles > etc) usually kicks BioSpira's arse as far as a quick cycle is concerned. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>> our local pet store! The advice that we've been given by these people >>> has been well intentioned but, apparently, ill informed. Agreed...I should have said ONLY (commercial source) et al. >> And even so, a chunk outta someones established filter (sponge or noodles >> etc) usually kicks BioSpira's arse as far as a quick cycle is concerned. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > Agreed...I should have said ONLY (commercial source) et al. Well I hope I didn't sound like I was nit picking, was just adding to your post. I always found it kinda embarassing when me bosses used to pressure me to push sales of bacteria in bottles and teabags etc. Despite the risk of passing a disease onto a customer from high traffic tanks..... nothing beats being able to wip out a nice cycled sponge and swap it for one of the brand new ones in the customers new filter. Bag the sponge up like a fishy, and send them home. NEVER HAD DRAMA doing it that way...... the alternative.... explaining the nitrogen cycle and then walking them thru the next few weeks of sick fish and daily water changes when they ignore my advice used to stress me out. This is such an easy hobby once you have your filters cycled. It's just complicated explaining why its an easy hobby. :) there is another one out there, cant remember who makes it. Ingrid >The Cycle product is next to worthless, in my experience. ONLY BioSpira (a >refrigerated solution patented by Marineland) clearly works in the manner [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> our local pet store! The advice that we've been given by these people >> has been well intentioned but, apparently, ill informed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan just dont let the ammonia or nitrite get above barely detectable and the nitrate over 20 ppm. Ingrid >Now that we've bought this bacteria, should we still be doing the >partial daily water changes? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/ sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?hl=en&q=puregold&qt_s=Group+lookup www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website. I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan |
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