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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Goldfish / March 2008My Black Moor Died Today ;-(
He was my favorite, and my son's favorite. I barely had him 2 weeks. He had white dots on him, and the day he died, the underside of him was turning gold. He was healthy when I got him. > He was my favorite, and my son's favorite. I barely had him 2 weeks. He > had white dots on him, and the day he died, the underside of him was > turning gold. He was healthy when I got him. If he was healthy when you got him then it had to be the conditions he was living in that did it in. Whats the parameters? Sounds like ICH, but thats just a guess at this point. ICH is brought on by stresses such as overcrowding or improper water parameters or introducing a fish that is sick into the tank without it being observed in a QT tank first. All those watere changes to clear up cloudy water was also taking away beneficial bacteria which are essential for proper conditions, and an undergravel filter is just not capabloe of those conditions with such a load and being so newly setup...It was inevitable that fish looses will occur. Get a larger tank, a decent filter, proper water test kits, and stop adding more fish to do the job of what a human needs to do, and quit mixing gold fish and tropicals. I remember I emptied fish water from the store's tank into my tank, so that could be where he got Ich from. But then again, I'm not sure if the Moor was in that bag that I emptied. It could have been a different fish. I realized shortly on, that I shouldn't have done that..and to just float the bag, but ditch the store water. And, once it happened by accident when I was cutting a bag. I do have an ammonia test kit. I will NEVER mix goldfish with tripicals again. In fact, I may never get goldies again. > I remember I emptied fish water from the store's tank into my tank, so > that could be where he got Ich from. But then again, I'm not sure if the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I do have an ammonia test kit. I will NEVER mix goldfish with tripicals > again. In fact, I may never get goldies again. That is why you really need to have a QT tank, and then yuou can watch the fisha nd not dump a fish or the water into an extablished healthy tank as such. You also need more than an ammonia test kit. PH, nitrate and nitrite is also needed if your going to do it right. The water is one thing, but odds are if the fish was in that water and it had ich then it wouldmake no difference if you dumped inthe water or not, you added a sick fish to a tank without the problem and started to cross contaminate by this process. If your using the same net between the two tanks you can also introduce what ever is wrong with the one tank into the other as well. Unfortunately petshops just want to sell a basic bill of goods as they consider you hooked and apt to buy more fish and meds etc so coupled with their being stupid they also use you as a constant means of making money form you by not ever reveal;ing exactly what all you really need, or else the totalprice would probbaly scare a lot offolks off. There is more to keeping fish than a glass box with water and filter and light........a lot more! But its not hard, and there is not any what I would call cheap way initially to get started correctly....... Thank you. I was really starting to get discouraged today. I asked my friend if she ever had an aquarium, and she said she had a beautiful 20 gallon, and said her water was always clear. She said to get catfish for clear water, and not to change too much water. As I said, I have 1 corycat in a 2.5 gallon tank with my gourami, and another corycat in the other 5 gallon tank with the 2 goldies. She also said goldies need to be just by themselves. Tonight, I tested the ammonia levels of the goldie tank, and the test tube was yellowish...the other tank with the gourami and cory had more ammonia. So I got rid of some water of both the tanks, replaced with aged water, and added a conditioner, and some AmmoLock to both tanks. The ph level was way up there! Maybe because of the seashells that were in the water? So I removed all the shells. The ph is still very high, even after the water changes. I know one thing: I'm NOT buying anymore fish. It seems like a difficult hobby to maintain. And frustrating. > Thank you. I was really starting to get discouraged today. I asked my > friend if she ever had an aquarium, and she said she had a beautiful 20 [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I know one thing: I'm NOT buying anymore fish. It seems like a difficult > hobby to maintain. And frustrating. Keeping fish is EASY but there is a given process about doing it that must be followed or your doomed for disaster as you have found out. SOme folks may luck out with deviations but usually it will bit yu hard eventually if its not done as it should be. What you really need is limit yourself to a couple of fish, leave the tank decorations (sea shells etc alone for now until you understand fully how ph is affected by what is in the tank) and allow a tank to cycle fully with a GOOD hob or canister type filter, heater and lights........just a thin covering of gravel and watch this tank and lalow it to cycle........Thenn after carefull consideration and thought and research, choose a fish and place inthe tank............depending onthe tank and how its cycled you may be able to g o 2 or so at a time..........Then build from there............Pick a hardy easy to care for fish......and don't get carried away with what sales clerks tell you, expecially anyone that tells you that cory catfish makes clean clear water.........YOu started with the wrong fish and overcrowded tanks to begin with and were doomed. Give the fish back or whatever get a new larger tank setup at least a 10 gal and in that 10 gal you can hold quite a decent variety of guppy, molly, platy, swords neons and other assorted tetrae, and learn with a bit of leaway instead of learing on the edge with no margin for any error as you have been withthose smalltanks, mix of tropicals / goldies, and going into it alone and after the fact........and above all go into a petshbop with the knowedge up front ahead of time and do not rely on what any of them say until youj can differentiate right from wrong inwqhat they are telling you......as most are dumb in this regard or smart like a fox in regards to keeping you buying stuff you do not need. Use your small tank for a quarantine tank so when you buy new fish place in the QT and observe them and alow them to stay there at least 2 or 3 weeks to make sure they are ok. Over time add some live plants etc.....but do it a little at a time until you get up to speed on the process. Keeping fish is not hard at all, it just has a regimine that has to be followed and once that is done its a walk inth park and very relaxing and rewarding. Use this past experieince as a stepping stone and learning experieince and go from there. yup. that is why Jo Ann Burke, who sold fancy GF for 30 years came up with the essentials list for keeping GF. She wanted her customers to have a lot of success and come back for more and more. go to Puregold and click on essentials list. Ingrid >Keeping fish is EASY but there is a given process about doing it that >must be followed or your doomed for disaster as you have found out. > Thank you. I was really starting to get discouraged today. I asked my > friend if she ever had an aquarium, and she said she had a beautiful 20 > gallon, and said her water was always clear. She said to get catfish for > clear water, and not to change too much water. Wow! = O You should stop listening to her as well. A catfish will NOT keep the water clear. That's utter nonsense. And worst of all, she told you NOT to change too much water, where in your situation you should being doing probably 50-75% daily. She also said goldies need to be > just by themselves. Yes, she got that one right. = ) > Tonight, I tested the ammonia levels of the goldie tank, and the test > tube was yellowish...the other tank with the gourami and cory had more [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I know one thing: I'm NOT buying anymore fish. It seems like a difficult > hobby to maintain. And frustrating. Keep up your water changes. Also, you need post the ingredients of your test kits. They may not be compatible with Ammolock. Read the test labels and the ammolock bottle. It should say something about what test kits it's compatible with. If they're not, you can get false results. Good thing you're not getting anymore fish now. You have to figure out what you're going to do with the ones you already have. As it still stands, you'll need a 30+g tank for the goldies pretty soon. It's not a frustrating hobby when start out with the correct information. You keep getting a bunch of bullcrappy nonsense that's been completely wrong much of the time. Of course you're going to feel frustration. However, you'll need to stop asking the folks who have given you bogus info stuff. It's messing you up. It's much harder to try and fix an existing problem than it is to do it right the first time. You're going to need to learn the right stuff *while* trying to care for these fish you now have. The 2 1/2g tank isn't going to hold a cory (I hope it's not anything like a channel cat), and a gourami. What type of gourami is it? That can make a huge difference, as some can get pretty large. The "catfish" you speak of are corydoras (cory or cories for short) right? Which tank are the guppies in? You didn't mention those in this last post. Well, my friend said she didn't start her aquarium, but she used to clean it. My late fiance also had an aquarium. He had catfish in there. He said "They clean the tank." It's the small cory. Not the large Pictus. I HAVE been doing fairly frequent water changes. I am going to do my "maintenance" tonight. I have plenty of aged water. A pain in the neck to have all that water on the counter! I have hardly any counter space as it is. I will test the ammonia and ph, of course. I guess I should get a Nitrite kit, also. On different websites, there's varied opinions, though. Confusing. I read too many water changes stress out the fish. Or is it removing TOO MUCH of their water? About the AmmoLok, after you put that into the water, the ammo test will not be accurate, because it dosn't RID the water of ammonia, it just detoxify's it. The Gourami is mostly an orange color with a turqouise fin on top, and it's face is silvery. I have no idea what kind it is. That guppy died a few days ago. I had one guppy. I guess you didn't read my post that said that it looked chewed up, with it's beautiful tail missing. > Well, my friend said she didn't start her aquarium, but she used to > clean it. > My late fiance also had an aquarium. He had catfish in there. He said > "They clean the tank." I think people are misusing the word "clean" in this situation. They don't clean the tank in the way a water change will. They eat food missed by other fish, sure but also must be properly fed. A tank can be perfectly fine with out them. I have several tanks and none have any cories currently. > It's the small cory. Not the large Pictus. That's good. However, cories come in many sizes. Anyway to find out which type you have? > I HAVE been doing fairly frequent water changes. I am going to do my > "maintenance" tonight. Good job. Keep up with those water changes. I have plenty of aged water. A pain in the neck > to have all that water on the counter! I have hardly any counter space > as it is. I Why not just use a water conditioner? No need to sit out jugs. You just need to get the tap water the same temp as the tank water. I have a glass stick thermometer that I use for this. It takes seconds to check. You add the dechlorinator to the tank before you add the new tap water. That's not going to hurt the fish at all. Just do it before the fresh water is added. No more jugs sitting on your counter taking up space either! > On different websites, there's varied opinions, though. Confusing. I > read too many water changes stress out the fish. Or is it removing TOO > MUCH of their water? It would be Too MUCH water at once. You could do a water change every day of the week. The amounts would be smaller though. > About the AmmoLok, after you put that into the water, the ammo test will > not be accurate, because it dosn't RID the water of ammonia, it just > detoxify's it. It doesn't say anywhere on the bottle about this product uses "nessler's regents" or anything like that? > The Gourami is mostly an orange color with a turqouise fin on top, and > it's face is silvery. I have no idea what kind it is. Sounds like a dwarf. Good thing. They are pretty, and quite personable. > That guppy died a few days ago. I had one guppy. I guess you didn't read > my post that said that it looked chewed up, with it's beautiful tail > missing. � Must have been in another post. Sorry. I ran out of aged water last night. So, I used lukewarm water straight from the tap to do my Gourami's water change. Then I added a conditioner. Guess I should have done the conditioner first. I have been using the API Tap Water Conditioner. Is this brand alright? The water is crystal clear. I'm guessing that gouramis do not generate that much waste/ammonia? About using water conditioners: Remember when you said you don't use aged water, you instead treat the water? And someone posted that they do the aged water thing because they don't believe in adding chemicals to the water. I'm wondering if the chemical is bad for the fish. Is it ok to use AmmoLock AND also a water conditioner together? > I ran out of aged water last night. So, I used lukewarm water straight > from the tap to do my Gourami's water change. Then I added a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Is it ok to use AmmoLock AND also a water conditioner together? I believe it wa probbaly me that stated that I do not use any chemicals of any kind in my tanks, and its been many many years since I used dechlorinator. I have space anbd areas where I can easily and cheaply keep aged water or collect good water out of empty tank setups. I guess chemicals are like anything, too much can possibly create a problem or maybe not.......its just that I can use aged water and do so for free so why pay for chemicals. Yes you can use ammo lock and dechlor together, but if your doing proper water changes there should not be any toxic junk to lock up and neuteralize............so therefore there should be no need for ammo lock.If you ship fish then ammo loc is another story, but in a home aquarium there really is no need for a lot of the "snake oils" that is sold to folks as a "must have" Can I ask you how long do you age your water for? > Can I ask you how long do you age your water for? Are your tanks cycled? Aging water is nothing compared to cycled water. No they are not cycled. > No they are not cycled. Aged water is what is used to provide makeup or water change water out of. Cycled refers to a tank that has gone though the "cycle" of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate stages before adding fish.......and at which point should be capable of supporting at least a light fish load on initial stocking..as far as biological filtration etxc is concerned. My concern is that none NONE of the water involved in this thread is cycled at all. On Mar 16, 9:59 am, Romanta...@webtv.net (L u) wrote: > No they are not cycled. Aged water is what is used to provide makeup or water change water out of. Cycled refers to a tank that has gone though the "cycle" of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate stages before adding fish.......and at which point should be capable of supporting at least a light fish load on initial stocking..as far as biological filtration etxc is concerned. PS There is cycled water and media available from LFS that know how to seed tanks. > My concern is that none NONE of the water involved in this thread is > cycled at all. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > load on initial stocking..as far as biological filtration etxc is > concerned. > PS > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The thing is if a tank is setup and cycled artificially it will be just fine, but a tank that is filled with water one day and chlorine remover etc added, and a day or two or even a week later fish are added (goldies espeically) and having said tank equipped with an undergravel filter........its just a recipie for a disaster..........It takes time for a tank to mature (cycle) and get populated with good bacteria which is essential in handling the bio load and also having a filter with biological filtration capability such as a cannister or hang on back type, or like I said, odds are its doomed to fail..............Not only with saltwater but also freswhwater setups it pays to go slow and easy and do not rush or get lulled into buying fish just because their colors attracted you or they have a special sale on them., There is going to be more fish for sale and trust me.they will never run out of fish to sell so its not like its a do or die thing when stocking a newly setup aquarium............Once its established and trucking on yea, then you can add more as long as the tank in general is not overstocked or loaded for what it can handle. Probably more fish are killed by foks pushing it tooo fast or overfeeding and stocking or stocking wrong fish with wrong fish, anmd it need not be that this hobby seems to be difficult as its not. It just needs to be taken a step at a time and use and follow the correct info.......Too much of any8ting canbe as bad as not enough and too much water changes can be just as bad as not changing water at all. Now that your down to two fish, just be satisfied with what you have for now.......Watch the cory carefully.......and be carefull of any treatments with a cory as they often times do not tolerate any treatments that other fish do. I recall they do not like salt in the tank either, which is a part of treating for ICH...in some cases...........................get decent hob filters, keep parameters correct, and do not go overboard on water changes.......Look at getting that cory in with the gourami in the 5 gal tank, and also look for a larger tank to move em both into......................and go very easy on feeding then. Every other day or two ill work just fine, and feed em what they will only consume in a say 2 minutes time.........There is no reason either of those fish should up and die if they are housed and taken care of, evfen if they both came down with ICH.....its not a death sentence for either......... On Mar 15, 11:08�am, Romanta...@webtv.net (L u) wrote:\ > I ran out of aged water last night. So, I used lukewarm water straight > from the tap to do my Gourami's water change. Then I added a > conditioner. Guess I should have done the conditioner first. I have been > using the API Tap Water Conditioner. Is this brand alright? The water is > crystal clear. I'm guessing that gouramis do not generate that much > waste/ammonia? Less than a Goldfish, but other factors are involved that need to be taken into consideration too. Things like the size of the tank the gourami is in, how much water changed during water changes, how often that's done. For example: One gourami in a 5g tank with proper, weekly water changes isn't going to create near the ammonia level that a goldfish would of the same size. The same fish in a small tank without proper water changes will foul that tank quickly. > About using water conditioners: Remember when you said you don't use > aged water, you instead treat the water? And someone posted that they do > the aged water thing because they don't believe in adding chemicals to > the water. I'm wondering if the chemical is bad for the fish. Aging water is fine if you know exactly what chemicals and minerals are in your tap water. Aging water properly wasn't exactly explained to you either. You an't just fill emtpy milk jugs, screw the tops on and leave overnight to be fine. What if your town's water department used chloramine because of higher bacteria levels in the spring (towns will use chloramine occasionly for specific reasons, when they usually use chlorine). They don't tell any of the residents this is being done. I don't take the chance. I don't want open jugs of water laying around my house either. So I pay a few bucks for a bottle of water conditioner. When it comes to adding chemicals in a tank, the less you use, the better. Of course. However, that's more like algae destroyers, chemical ph adjusters, chemical clearifiers, chemicals that are supposed to eliminate water changes - except for a few a year or something crazy like that, and dosing tanks of fish with medications when the hobbyists doesn't even really know what's wrong with the fish, etc., over medicating in general, things like that. Not using a simple water conditioner that allows you to avoid storing water in jugs, (and being the wrong temp too), is on the extreme side of the scale, IMO. > Is it ok to use AmmoLock AND also a water conditioner together? You would be double dosing then, as AmmoLock is a water conditioner as well getting rid of ammonia. Product info: AmmoLock Instantly detoxifies ammonia from fish waste, tap water, uneaten fish food, decomposing plants, and algae. Prepares tap water for plants and fish. Removes chlorine and chloramines from tap and well water. Eliminates ammonia stress and promotes healthy gill function. >I remember I emptied fish water from the store's tank into my tank, so >that could be where he got Ich from. ... no, it toxes the fish out, but the fish were iced prior to shipment and shipped cold. that and the stress of shipment is dead bang way to bring on ich in Goldfish. The first two months of a new fish are when a fish is most likely to die. the smaller they are, the more likely there are even lethal genes that will turn on as they are still developing. the first couple months is also when the biocycle is not up and running and toxic water can stress and kill a fish. from my website below: BUYING A NEW GOLDFISH and then the essentials list Ingrid On Mar 10, 11:13 pm, Romanta...@webtv.net (L u) wrote: >> He was my favorite, and my son's favorite. I barely had him 2 weeks. He >> had white dots on him, and the day he died, the underside of him was >> turning gold. He was healthy when I got him. BUYING A NEW GOLDFISH 1. Needless to say, do not even look at fish in tanks where there are floating fish. Fish do die, but floating dead fish indicates the pet shop doesn't care AND the dead fish is shedding disease in the tank to the other fish. Most Goldfish will eat dead fish. Do not buy from a tank where you see fish that are drifting with the current either. Also consider that in most pet shops the water from all tanks is centrally processed, so anything 1 fish in 1 tank has, they all have. 2. Look for a fish that swims easily. If you have Jo Ann's tape, there are different "styles" of easy swimming for different fish. A long fin Demekin does not swim in a straight line like a ryukin does. Healthy fish (small to medium sized ones) spend most of their time "booking" around, looking for this and that. Look for the one that is busy, busy, busy. 3. Watch to make sure that none are doing a lot of yawning, a symptom of oxygen deprivation, perhaps gill problems or current medications being used. 4. Ask the seller if the fish have been medicated, for what, with what and for how long. This will limit what or if you can use anything without toxing them out at home. It also gives you an idea of how sick the fish were. Be sure to ask if they use salt as you will want to salt dip them when you get them home (you will actually have that all set up before you leave looking for fish!) When you get a fish, do not allow them to put anything in the bag except water and oxygen. If the trip is long, the water should just cover the fish in the bottom and the rest filled with oxygen. Make sure the bag is tight or a fish could get trapped in folds of the plastic. 5. Ask them where the fish came from, country of origin. Ask them when the fish arrived. If they just arrived, they could still die from stress of shipping, if they have been their awhile, they are probably resistant or immune to most diseases. 6. Look for a dorsal fin that is straight up. The pectoral fins should be evenly extended out from the sides (make sure all the fins are there!). Where the fins are placed varies a bit from fish to fish and pearls and long fins paddle with their pectorals. There should be two anal fins or one right in the middle. A fish with one anal fin off to one side means the other anal fin could be growing inside and kill the fish eventually. All the fins should be even as uneven fins could be an indication of recent fin rot, or worse, fin rot in progress. Look at the edges of all the fins for unevenness. Look for smooth backs on fish, ranchus should be nearly a perfect half circle and the tail tucked in low, lionheads are a bit longer and the tail is not set as low. But there should be no odd bumps along the back. Now, look at the fish swimming and see if the lateral line of the fish is even in the water, no tilting to one side or the other. Check to see that the fish is nicely rounded. Those whose bodies appear too small for their heads could have skinny disease and will die. The exception are fish with hoods (wen) and their heads may be much larger than the body. Last, let them get the fish in the bag, then check the gills to make sure they are bright red, check the anal port to make sure there is no redness or oozing and it isn't protruding (a female that is spawning could have an "outie" a bit, but no redness). Check the outside of the mouth really closely to make sure there is no redness or white strings (columnaris) and try to see inside the mouth for the same. Check the eyes for white flecks (brain flukes). Feel the slime coat, too heavy is parasites, dry is columnaris. You may have to ask them for a bright light to be able to do a good physical. Check the fish physical for fuller explanation. http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care1.htm#essentials THE ESSENTIALS FOR KEEPING 2 GOLDFISH Jo Ann Burke of Dandy Orandas has over the last 20 years found the minimum essential hardware and care required for keeping goldfish healthy. 1. Read all about the upkeep and expense first 2. Then buy all your equipment, get it set up and cleaned. 3. Buy your fish!!!! Your pet store may be willing to hold the fish you want until you are ready. ASK!! THE ESSENTIALS for 2 GOLDFISH 20 GALLON TANK + STAND FILTER Whisper #3 or Aquamaster 400 HEATER 100 Watt Visitherm AIR PUMP Double gang tubing (12feet) 2 big air stones SIPHON (Python) with nylon sockie over the end DECHLOR (if you use city water) FOOD sinking type SALT crystal solar type salt for water softeners, with no additives THERMOMETER TEST KITS for: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, hardness, salt chlorine/chloramine, (American Pharmaceutical) The medicine chest for goldfish > He was my favorite, and my son's favorite. I barely had him 2 weeks. He > had white dots on him, and the day he died, the underside of him was > turning gold. He was healthy when I got him. Sadly, This isn't a suprise to me all. That may sound harsh, but it's the truth. Folks have been trying to explain to you very nicely that your tank/s are much too small for what had. Then you added tropicals like a gourami and a guppy...then another goldie (the moor). You didn't take the good advice that was given to you by several different people, and now you are seeing why. I'm sorry for your loss, however, please learn from this. You either need a much larger tank for those goldies, or you need to return them. They can NOT, and that's any of the types of goldies, be expected to live in a 5g tank. Maybe a few babies, but even then they'd outgrow it in a matter of months. |
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