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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Goldfish / January 2004oranda sits on the bottom of tank
my oranda sits on the bottom of the tank. and is also losing some scales on both sides of the body. orginally missing one scale on the left side of body the about a week later i noticed she's missing more and now on both sides. the goldfish is about an inch and a half long and generally very energetic but there are time when it just sits there on the bottom of the tank what size tank is it in? what are the water parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)? and is there anything in the tank that is kinda sharp that the goldfish can injure itself on? > my oranda sits on the bottom of the tank. > and is also losing some scales on both sides of the body. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- EMERGENCY 1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates 2. do the fish physical 3. change some or all of the water, add 1 teaspoon salt per 5 gallons water 4. from the water parameters and physical decide on a course of action 5. if there is nothing specific, do the tub to tub method if you got a pleco in the tank, get it out. >my oranda sits on the bottom of the tank. >and is also losing some scales on both sides of the body. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups >---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 04:50:34 +0000, dr-sol wrote: > EMERGENCY > 1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the > endorsements or recommendations I make. 10 gallon two small fish. one is the oranda and the other is fantail. the oranda tend to sit on the bottom of tank and comes up to eat then usually swims normally and does all the things indicative of a healthy fish but within the hour the fish resumes it's seemingly preffered position. nitrite= .25 amonia= .5 -1. ph= 7.6 I change 25-30% of water every two days and add 3table spoons of aquarium salt every four days( to compensate for an undersized tank) and 10 ml of stress zyme on water changes. im almost sure that having a 10 gallon tank is the source of the problem so im going to cough up some cash for a 20 to 30 gallon setup. advice on how to get the fish from one tank to the other asap will be greatly appreciated. thanks for al the help this group is awesome. > nitrite= .25 > amonia= .5 -1. Whoop-whoop-whoop. Cycle / biofilter problem. Water changes, big water changes (like 50%) are needed. If you can, get some AmQuel to hammer back the ammonia (in the short term). If you haven't salt to 1 teaspoon (+) of aquarium salt per 5 gallons (helps with the nitrite). Cut back feeding to once everyother day until the ammonia and nitrite come under control... -D  Signature"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." -Galbraith's Law You might want to ease up on the salt. 2 tbsp in your tank period is plenty. The salt should be aqua salt or coarse pickling salt (not table salt). If you do a 50% water change, only add 1 more tbsp of salt. Would the ammonia cause the fish to loose scales? I had an oranda loose scales, but it was because he got caught in the siphon (it's amazing how quick this can happen!). I've never heard of anything besides accidents causing lost scales. Is the fish rubbing on the gravel a lot, maybe? Signature}<> Tammy <>{ Support the Canakin Project with me, by linking to your favorite store from this address: http://www.geocities.com/ontario_canakin All Proceeds will be used to purchase equipment, fish, etc for the Canakin Project Watkins Business Opportunity www.tsginfo.com Enter code TD3796 Me and my fish Thank You!! > On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 04:50:34 +0000, dr-sol wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- oh yeah.. the ammonia and the nitrites are too high and it is considered toxic water. and yes, the toxic water can cause the fish to rub and dart and go nuts... or sit fins clamped on teh bottom too. Ingrid >You might want to ease up on the salt. 2 tbsp in your tank period is >plenty. The salt should be aqua salt or coarse pickling salt (not table [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >quick this can happen!). I've never heard of anything besides accidents >causing lost scales. Is the fish rubbing on the gravel a lot, maybe? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. > I change 25-30% of water every two days > and add 3table spoons of aquarium salt every four days( to compensate for an undersized > tank) Hmm if you are adding 3 table spoons every four days and only taking out 50-60% of the water your salt levels are going to rise considerably! whats a pleco > EMERGENCY > 1. check the water parameters: pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the > endorsements or recommendations I make. You would know the pleco as an "algae eater", which is what they are sold as in department stores. I assume they are the same thing... > You would know the pleco as an "algae eater", which is what they are > sold as > in department stores. I assume they are the same thing... Well... sorta... another name might be "Sucker mouth catfish"... There are more algae eaters than just plecos... CAE, SAE -D Signature"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." -Galbraith's Law >> You would know the pleco as an "algae eater", which is what they are >> sold as [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -D got it. I dont have a pleco. I only have two fish. a fantail and an oranda. the fantail is thriving but the oranda was sitting at the bottom of the tank. However I am please to say that I think its going to make it. I did an almost comlpete water change and brought the ph to 7.6 which for whatever reasons is the lowest number on the kit's chart and amonia levels to 0.0. the nitrite is an other story, no matter how much water changing i do the lowest i can get to is .25. I'm going to hunt down this Amquel. I found it online but I need it sooner and there are no aquarium stores near me -in fact I looked in the yellow pages and found one aquarium store seven miles away in the borough i live in. Im afraid NYC has turned into a very cold place, and I'm not talking about the weather. as for the fish it's no longer sitting at the bottom. its doing quite normal swimming but the nitrite results tell me that my problems are still a bay. amquel wont help nitrites. get a new test kit. if there is no ammonia, and you have some nitrates then you really shouldnt have any nitrites at all... altho DO test your tap water. Ingrid >7.6 which for whatever reasons is the lowest number on the kit's chart >and amonia levels to 0.0. the nitrite is an other story, no matter how >much >water changing i do the lowest i can get to is .25. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:49:48 +0000, dr-sol wrote: > amquel wont help nitrites. get a new test kit. if there is no ammonia, and you have > some nitrates then you really shouldnt have any nitrites at all... altho DO test your [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the > endorsements or recommendations I make. Im glad you said this. my first reaction was to test the tap water and it was negative. I guess there is some sort of flaw in the test kit. Aquarium pharmacuticals makes the test kits i use. they seem to have a pretty strong hold on my local petstore. I say this becouse I recently took a closer look at the fish care products I've purchased from that petstore and they all share aquarium pharmacuticals inc. as their distributors. I use the aq.pharm stuff seems to work fine, BUT, if it been sitting around a while it gets old. Ingrid >my first reaction was to test the tap water and it was negative. >I guess there is some sort of flaw in the test kit. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >petstore and they all share aquarium pharmacuticals inc. as their >distributors. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:23:17 +0000, dr-sol wrote: > I use the aq.pharm stuff seems to work fine, BUT, if it been sitting around a while > it gets old. Ingrid [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the > endorsements or recommendations I make. thanks Ingrid for the reply. now I don't know if this should become a new thread but here goes anyway. I had ordered an aqua clear 500 filter. I didnt know that it was going to be so big. pumps 500 galons an hour! at this point my oranda' condition after improving slightly was now deteriorating and the fantail was now also sitting at the bottom of the tank with the occasional darting here and there. I didnt know what else to do and figured they were both dead anyway so I put the aquaclear 5 to work. I followed all the instructions like rinsing the carbon filled bag and so on and after about 45min to an 1hr the fish began to take on new life and the water is crystal clear. this was tuesday morn. today I arrived from work and the fish look great they are swimming around, picking at gravel and look apparently content, strong and energetic. I have done searches on google hoping to find literature and the outcome of overfiltering to this extent. any thoughts or advise will be greatly apreciated > the outcome of overfiltering to this >extent. any thoughts or advise will be greatly apreciated Overfiltering is definitely the way to go with all aquarium fish - especially goldfish. >> the outcome of overfiltering to this >>extent. any thoughts or advise will be greatly apreciated > > Overfiltering is definitely the way to go with all aquarium fish - especially > goldfish. also the filter suggest that that you include the amonia neutralizar but i'm afraid to put it in the filter for fear of the bag of amonia neutralizer poluting the tank. I say this because no matter how much I rinse it, it always leaks residue and im shure that if this were happenning in the tank it would not be a pretty thing to watch. thanks again >>> the outcome of overfiltering to this >>>extent. any thoughts or advise will be greatly apreciated [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- this is in response to my own concern. after temporarily giving up on on the bag of amonia neutralizer, I decided to resume the installation. ( I imagine someone with a pond is probably reading this and saying "installation?" gimme a break). I had been using a 10gallon rubber bucket and a 1 gallon plastic pitcher for water changes. I find it easier to keep track of the percentage of water changing by using a 1 gallon pitcher intsead of a python. I filled the 10 gallon bucket with 7 or 8 gallons of the aquariums water, hung my old whisper 30 on it, 1 teaspoon of aquarium salt, and 2 teaspoons of aquarium pharmacutical brand stress zyme. I kept the two gfs in there for 1.5 hours while I installed the amonia neutralizer bag on on my filter. now, if anyone reading this notices that I maybe doing something wrong please let me know. the filter i have is an aquaclear 500 and it sais on the boxthat it pumps 500 gallons an hour. I have a 10 gallon tank. I imagine all of my tanks water get filtered 50 times in one hour. before i got this filter I had a nitrite problem that wouldnt go a way no matter how much of the water I changed. it was about to kill my oranda. the new filter got the fish well again. long story short: Amonia neutralizer was installed and gfs are doing fine. I had been slowly removing all the gravel from since i read that gravel isnt good for goldfish four days ago and finally got it all out on friday. and i also noticed after testing the buckets water for nitrite levels that the nitrite leves were back proving that the whisper 30, although claiming to filter a 30 gallon tank, cant even properly filter a bucket with two fish and 8 gallons of water. the same water was tested while in the aquarium with the aqua500 and nitrite levels were 0.0 >I had been slowly removing all the gravel from since i read >that gravel isnt good for goldfish four days ago and finally got it all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >bucket with two fish and 8 gallons of water. the same water was tested >while in the aquarium with the aqua500 and nitrite levels were 0.0 Did you read the articles on cycling? It is not something that happens over night. It will take several weeks unless you have access to a product called Biospria. The fish produce ammonia as waste. It will take a while for the bacteria that transform the ammonia to nitrite to establish themselves. As this happens you will see the nitrite levels rise. You must keep doing the water changes and watch the levels. The second set of bacteria will start to establish themselves in the filter and you will see the appearance of nitrAte. Slowly the level of nitrIte will go down as the level of nitrAte goes up. As I said it takes weeks. Then you should see the nitrIte level at 0 once the tank is cycled. Just because all the water is going thru the filter right now does NOT mean that it will remove the nitrIte or the ammonia. But once the filter is cycled it will. In my Aquaclears, I have two sponges and a little bag filled with polyester batting. When I change the filter media, I only change one thing at a time. Like one sponge.... or the polyester. That way my tank never has to recycle itself completely. The sponges and bag get rinsed in a bucket of old tank water and then put back in the filter every time I do a water change. Read these two sites for more info of beginning fish keeping: The Beginner FAQ (Basic Fish keeping, not specific to goldies) http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin.html PureGold - Care of Goldfish http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care.htm Azul > On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:23:17 +0000, dr-sol wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- also the filter suggest that that you include the amonia neutralizar but i'm afraid to put it in the filter for fear of the bag of amonia neutralizer poluting the tank. I say this because no matter how much I rinse it, it always leaks residue and im shure that if this were happenning in the tank it would not be a pretty thing to watch. thanks again there was something toxic in your tanks. you got gravel? well definitely you could have something toxic brewing down in that gravel. the filter and carbon will pull the toxins out for a week or two, then overwhelm the new filter as well. move the fish to aerated tub of water, pull that gravel out and clean it. Ingrid >I followed all the instructions like rinsing the carbon filled bag and so >on and after about 45min to an 1hr the fish began to take on new life and >the water is crystal clear. this was tuesday morn. today I arrived from >work and the fish look great they are swimming around, picking at gravel >and look apparently content, strong and energetic. I have done searches on ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:36:14 +0000, dr-sol wrote: > there was something toxic in your tanks. you got gravel? well definitely you could > have something toxic brewing down in that gravel. the filter and carbon will pull [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the > endorsements or recommendations I make. thanks they'r doing fine I got rid of the gravel (based on info on your site) thanks drsolo. you've probably seen these pics of the fish already. the pics on my site are reacent and show my two very happy gfs. http://www.alkadmzu.com pics labeled buddy are of my dog and the ones labeled fish are current pics of the two little goldfish the info on puregold have helped make happy and heathy. there is on labeld fish spongebob, that one was taken before the oranda got sick. ps. the site is safe and contains nothing but pics of my pets and no pics of people. > On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:36:14 +0000, dr-sol wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- whoops it seems I wrote the reply to your mesage be for i read your entire post. when you said to clean the gravel, was i supposed to clean it and put it back in the tank? i have had the tank with no gravel, a rock and an airstone for four days now. the tank is definately cleaner and the fish seem to be doing good four days and counting. keep a very close eye on the water parameters as the gravel does carry quite a bit of the biofilter. I do advise cleaning the gravel, putting it back and slowly removing it one handful per day. but ONLY if the tank is overstocked. as long as there isnt any ammonia or nitrite spike AND you like the look of the bare tank, leave the gravel out for the health of the fish and the ease of taking care of water quality. Ingrid >whoops it seems I wrote the reply to your mesage >be for i read your entire post. >when you said to clean the gravel, was i supposed to clean it and put it >back in the tank? i have had the tank with no gravel, a rock and an >airstone for four days now. the tank is definately cleaner and the fish >seem to be doing good four days and counting. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:58:29 +0000, dr-sol wrote: > keep a very close eye on the water parameters as the gravel does carry quite a bit of > the biofilter. I do advise cleaning the gravel, putting it back and slowly removing [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the > endorsements or recommendations I make. wow! you said a mouthful when saying keep a close eye. as I was writing the last post the oranda began to float sideways. I remembered that there was a post in this group where some's fish had the same problem and the solution given was to change 50% of water and feed green peas. I did that and the fish was well within the hour. poor thing coudnt stay down. I took it in my hands while still in the water to do the fish physical and noticed it was still very strong. it seemed like gas becaused she pooped a lining (simular to that of which suasage is wrapped)with tiny bubbles and very little green. what could of cuased the gas? maby my air stone was wearring out and filling the tank with bubbles to small in size that would be spread through out the tank by the curents formed by the waterfal effect of the filter. I put in a new airstone of the same kind two questions how much is too much green peas? i notice that a single pea doesnt seem like enough. can you point me to any literature that describes general healthy goldfish behavior? i ask this becuase I test the water every day and am aware that a 10g tank is subject to drastically different water conditions in short spans of time and can upset the fish therefore changing their behavior ei: when i first installed the new filter, the fish -specialy the oranda- was often sucking in water very vigorously making a trumpet like shape with its mouth and gills venting largely in and out very noticeable. ps thank you drsolo for the quick replies last night. like i said, after i wrote my last message I had to take care of the oranda. and I dont have any algea eaters but will get a 30 gallon for the two fish on friday and in the future consider getting a third one. thankyou again http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#buying%20a%20new%20goldfish healthy gf are busy, busy http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/technique/technique.html#JoAnns_diagnosis _by_poop it is not your airstone. it is gas from overfeeding or wrong kind of food AND overfeeding. look at http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/symptom/symptom.htm#floating%20problems GF get gas. they can eat bubbles of air when they are constipated too. your welcome. Ingrid >it seemed like gas becaused she pooped a lining (simular to that of which >suasage is wrapped)with tiny bubbles and very little green. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >two fish on friday and in the future consider getting a third one. >thankyou again ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. |
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