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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Goldfish / February 2004Mystery crash
Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and > 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it first cycled up over 18 months ago. A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking -- but I think the situation is under control now. I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies, and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly means 3 fish, 2" max.) The big mystery is - What happened?? I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero, and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage. Some possible factors - - as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine; I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs? - The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system could handle? Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or feng shui) are welcomed and solicited. Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now. > - as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine; > I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least > that was the plan. Um... I think you're supposed to use both together... (At least I always have). The high nitrates makes me wonder about gunk in the gravel/substrate or trapped in the filter media. IIRC you are a sand sorta guy, right? -D  Signature"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." -Galbraith's Law > > - as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine; > > I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least > > that was the plan. > > Um... I think you're supposed to use both together... (At least I always > have). I do as well, but I've always used Amquel as an afterthought: a couple of teaspoons of novaqua as the main dechlor + 1 of amquel as insurance. As of Feb 1st I reversed the roles: 2 tsp amquel for dechlor + 1 of novaqua for it's slime effect. > The high nitrates makes me wonder about gunk in the gravel/substrate or > trapped in the filter media. IIRC you are a sand sorta guy, right? Yes, I am a sand sorta guy, and this tank does have sand. In this particular tank it's a fairly coarse black sand that's easy to spot when it's where it oughtn't be. I'm pretty careful about keeping this particular tank's filters clean also, because it's one of those #%$&! Eclipse things that I think is poorly designed. In fact, 6 days prior to the calamity I had cleaned the filter pretty well, and had seen no evidence of overflow or clogging. As for gunk in the substrate.... I suppose it's possible, tho I'm pretty strict about vacuuuuuming it during PWCs. It's not deep enough to escape processing.... I'll cogitate on this awhile. As of this AM, it would appear that I'm not out of the woods yet. The real jewel of this tank, a beautiful well-decorated chubby-cheeked calico Oranda is now acting decidedly stressed, tho not like the white one, who has always been weak and runty. Gunther > -D > Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now. [IANAD] If you're visiting a dentist at 10:30ish at night, may I recommend a clove oil soaked piece of cotton ball on whatever tooth part is causing pain. (As a fishkeeper you just might have clove oil (eugenol) in stock) -D Signature"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." -Galbraith's Law > > Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pain. (As a fishkeeper you just might have clove oil (eugenol) in > stock) :-) The timestamp was accurate, but that msg spent about 10 hours in queued in my outbasket. I pushed the "send" button at around noon-thirty, then shut down my system without thinking. The next time I fired up the newsreader, it got sent. G > Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow > Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or > feng shui) are welcomed and solicited. Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0, nitrates < 10ppm. It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now. That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or (b) I'm used to it. But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the house doing fine? Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every chance I get. Any problems there? I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped. BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency? (wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.) Gunther Gunther, I noticed in your relating your aquarium specifics you never mentioned pH or KH, which either one could see a change and your problem. Is your water soft or on the hard side? When all is said and done it was probably the result of the egg laying that shot up the nitrite and since you tank is overstocked slightly, these conditions could have caused the problem. The reason that I express concern about the KH is that this is more instrumental in the nitrite to nitrate conversion than the conversion of ammonia to nitrite. If the KH was too low and/or exhausted, this could have prevented more nitrite from being converted, which resulted in the elevated nitrate, because of the additional protein conversion because of the eggs. In any event, just a thought. Tom L.L. ----------------------------------------------------- "Gunther" <gunther@his.house.org> wrote in message > > Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Gunther > Gunther, > > I noticed in your relating your aquarium specifics you never mentioned pH or > KH, which either one could see a change and your problem. Is your water > soft or on the hard side? Well, pH is the same as always, around 7.3 +/- , and I've always thought of our water as being middle of the road. It's not what you'd call soft, but I've lived with harder. However, I didn't measure the pH of the nasty water -- as soon as I saw the elevated nitrite I grabbed the python. KH I cannot measure. Need I invest in another kit? Apparently it wouldn't hurt me to go read up on KH/GH at any rate. I'm willing to believe the egg theory myself. As I said, once I caught it and changed out the water, all has been fine, chemistry-wise. The problem is I was slow to detect the problem, and the fish took a lot of damage and/or stress. Slightly clamped and red streaked fins on the worst (I fear she may not make it), and a young Moor is acting weirder than usual. Luckily, the one I'm pulling for the most seems to be holding his own for now. I'm now worried about 2ndary problems due to compromised immune systems. On the subject of test kits: is there any reason to suspect Aquarium Pharm test kits are less accurate than other brands? A local LFS guy swears they're not worth beans since they can give outright false readings, and he prefers strips over _any_ brand of liquid test kits. I just bought AP's holy trinity last month, and cannot justify trashing them and buying all new tests kits. Opinions? Finally, this same LFS guys says that despite what I read in the local papers, Sunnyvale (where I live) water has used chloramine for the past 15 years, so it's probably not an issue in this case. Hmmm... Gunther > When all is said and done it was probably the result of the egg laying that > shot up the nitrite and since you tank is overstocked slightly, these [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > > Gunther > Finally, this same LFS guys says that despite what I read in > the local papers, Sunnyvale (where I live) water has used > chloramine for the past 15 years, so it's probably not an > issue in this case. Yah, at work I've seen chloramine signs over the past year or two (ammonia readings after dechlor), so I tend to believe the LFS on that count. As for the AP being junk? I haven't had any problems. I use AP, one LFS uses tetra and the other uses AP. One thing to remember expectation-wise is that the test kits probably aren't exactly accurate, meaning you are going to get some variance in readings between the different manufactures and different chemical tests. They should be in the same ballpark, but don't expect LFS chemical tests to give 2 significant figure accuracy. In most hobby applications we're really using them as relative indicators. i.e. 0 ammonia or detectable ammonia. Twice as much nitrate as before. etc... For that purpose they're "just fine." Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own measurements... -D Signature"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." -Galbraith's Law ... > In most hobby applications we're really using them as relative > indicators. i.e. 0 ammonia or detectable ammonia. Twice as much > nitrate as before. etc... Agreed, and they do what I require of them. > Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP > nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the > water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own > measurements... That's interesting, could well have been a factor in my case as well. In only 6 days, my tank went from 0/0/10 to 0/0.5/80+ppm. I can certainly believe that a huge ammonia spike would cause that pattern, but those numbers? Frankly, I pretty much ignored the nitrate reading at the time since I considered the nitrites danger enough, but I seem to recall that it was actually off the chart. As we said above, these aren't really quantitative tests so much as trinary indicators (good/so-so/bad) but still ..... Well, as I write this, my youngest, a juvenile Moor, has succumbed to the stress of it all and rests in the freezer awaiting burial under the lemon bush. Fertile Myrtle (the white female oranda) looks not much better. I still hold out hope for Paprika (nee Pepper, the proud papa-to-be) since he's alert and active, but, as always, time will tell the wiser. Gunther "Who cares what you think?" .... George W. Bush, Philadelphia, 2001" >> Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP >> nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > at the time since I considered the nitrites danger enough, but I seem > to recall that it was actually off the chart. Check out "http://www.kernsanalysis.com/fish/cycletest.png" NO2 is in green, NO3 is in blue. Keep in mind that this was a brand new un-cycled tank. No reason at all for there to be NO3 that early. And then take a look at the correlation between the two lines... Not perfect, but really close... also given that there was no reason to expect the NO3... As I said AP claims the NO3 test kit doesn't false positive when NO2 is in the water... Draw your own conclusions... -Donald Signature"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." -Galbraith's Law > >> Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP > >> nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > As I said AP claims the NO3 test kit doesn't false positive when NO2 is > in the water... Draw your own conclusions... Yup...the fact that you saw NO3 rise simultaneously with NO2 is pretty much a smoking gun, innit? So I'll start using my Magic 8-Ball instead of a nitrate test: "Outlook favorable" "Ask me later" .... Gunther > So I'll start using my Magic 8-Ball instead of a nitrate test: > "Outlook favorable" "Ask me later" .... Well, test both NO2 AND NO3, if you detect NO2 throw your NO3 results away. You would anyway because non-zero NO2 is a clear and present danger... You know this, I'm just writing to the record and lurking newbies... -D Signature"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof." -Galbraith's Law Many NitriAte testers test positive when Nitrites are present. I kow this to be true for Rolph C. Hagen testers. Could be you didn't have a NitrAte problem. ...Kodiak > > >> Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP > > >> nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Gunther >... >> In most hobby applications we're really using them as relative [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Gunther My sympathies on your loss Azul those ammonia alert thingies work great. suction cup it to the inside of the tank and it changes color if the ammonia spikes. those "strips" can be useless if they get damp or are in a humid area. the AP tests can get old. but both are useful. they cant measure very small quantities of course. Ingrid The >problem is I was slow to detect the problem, and the fish took a >lot of damage and/or stress. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >give outright false readings, and he prefers strips over _any_ >brand of liquid test kits. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. Ok, just a guess, when my Nitrate gets over 50, my PH is usually crashing. If your KH was getting low, you have nothing to support PH, then water usually goes acidic very fast, maybe your fish has suffered more from PH crash than Nitrate poisoning. Sometimes my city water KH gets down to 30ppm, normally it's around 80ppm or more. Maybe the city guys forgot to harden the water. ...Kodiak > > Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow > > Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Gunther Ok, well guess what happened to me (what a coincidence) My water has been in low KH lately, my PH crashed today. (It's like I jinxed myself talking to you about this) I tested 0 Ammo, 0 Nitrite and <10ppm Nitrates, but when I checked my PH it was down around 6.0 maybe a tad under that. My Pleco instantly died. This was only 4 days after a thorough cleaning and 30% water. When i checked KH it was 0, I mean 0, there was none. Now with a 50% water I'm still down at 6.5 and KH is a bit better but still bad at 15ppm. Damn why is it still so low? Those city guys? I took some tap water, let it sit for 12 hours and tested KH at only 25ppm. Why is it so low all of the sudden? My tapwater KH use to be around 80ppm Those city guys, i blame the city giys for killing Mr. Victor "the cleaner" (Pleco). This is bad news. I know i need calcium rock based spring, crushed oyster shells etc but right now all i have is baking soda. Can anyone recommend proper dosage? how many tablespoon per 5 gallon so as not to bring it up over 0.5 per 24hour? I know this is temporary, am i wasting time or will this at least bring temporary relief? Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help. ...Kodiak > Ok, just a guess, when my Nitrate gets over 50, my PH is usually crashing. > If your KH was getting low, you have nothing to support PH, then water [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > > > Gunther >Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help. I have used it for many years. You will be better off using Equilibrium if you have a low GH too. Your thorough tank cleaning may have started a downturn and the low carbonates didn't help. A higher level of KH and GH is necessary to maintain beneficial bacterial. You can get specifics, exact levels, from Aquatic Eco System specs. Well by thorough cleaning, i meant only siphoned the gravel very well, nitrates very low. I didn't clean the filter and I only changed 30% water. How could that cause PH to crash? Am I removing hardness when I clean off excessive Nitrate? After a 50% PH went from 6 to 6.5. Then after 12 hours I added 1tsp baking soda (tank is 33gal) I am back at PH 7.5, and KH is back up to a whopping 60. Fish seem to be very happy now, but as everyone says on this group, baking soda is only temporary. I will keep an eye on it. ...Kodiak > >Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > didn't help. A higher level of KH and GH is necessary to maintain beneficial > bacterial. You can get specifics, exact levels, from Aquatic Eco System specs. >Well by thorough cleaning, i meant only >siphoned the gravel very well, nitrates very low. >I didn't clean the filter and I only changed 30% water. >How could that cause PH to crash? Am I removing >hardness when I clean off excessive Nitrate? Cleaning off nitrate is a misnomer. When you cleaned you disrupted the bacteria and the few carbonates you had probably were utilized in recovery. Without knowing your GH it is difficult to understand your situation. There was no KH left in the tank GH was also very low hovering around 30ppm, it seems my city is taking the hardness out of my water. Is it possible to disrupt bacteria even if your really careful? I use 48hour airstone aged temperature matched water with recommended dechlorinator dosage. previous post---> "I tested 0 Ammo, 0 Nitrite and <10ppm Nitrates, but when I checked my PH it was down around 6.0 maybe a tad under that. My Pleco instantly died. This was only 4 days after a thorough cleaning and 30% water. When i checked KH it was 0, I mean 0, there was none. Now with a 50% water I'm still down at 6.5 and KH is a bit better but still bad at 15ppm. Damn why is it still so low? Those city guys? I took some tap water, let it sit for 12 hours and tested KH at only 25ppm. Why is it so low all of the sudden? My tapwater KH use to be around 80ppm" ...Kodiak > >Well by thorough cleaning, i meant only > >siphoned the gravel very well, nitrates very low. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > probably were utilized in recovery. > Without knowing your GH it is difficult to understand your situation. >There was no KH left in the tank >GH was also very low hovering around 30ppm, it seems my city >is taking the hardness out of my water. Is it possible to disrupt bacteria >even if your really careful? Of course, especially if you don't have the proper levels to maintain bioconversion. Here are the basics from the site I suggested previously. ***** The Relationship of Hardness, Alkalinity and Carbon Dioxide ...In aquatic systems, adequate hardness is important and depends mostly on the concentration of calcium and magnesium ions. Hardness is particularly important to newly hatched fish that obtain much of their calcium directly from the water. Generally, freshwater fish do best when hardness is maintained near 100 mg/liter CaCO3. To increase hardness, use calcium chloride. Why is alkalinity important? Alkalinity is the buffering capacity of water. That is, its ability to maintain a pH of 7.0 or above. In aquaculture, alkalinity is most often influenced by the bicarbonate ion (the negative ion in sodium bicarbonate). When kept above 100 mg/liter CaCO3, alkalinity will usually be an effective buffer, depending on the level of carbon dioxide in the water (see graph). Alkalinity should not fall below 80 mg/liter CaCO3, as it is the source of carbon for nitrifying bacteria and is consumed during nitrification. To increase alkalinity, add sodium bicarbonate. To decrease alkalinity, add acid. How are hardness and alkalinity related? Hardness and alkalinity are both expressed as mg/liter CaCO3. In tap water, when the concentration of hardness and alkalinity are the same, both are probably due to dissolved calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate does not dissolve well above pH 7.0, so other chemicals like calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate can be used to adjust hardness and alkalinity independently. If alkalinity and hardness are too high, calcium carbonate will precipitate on air diffusers, heaters and other submerged equipment. How is alkalinity affected by carbon dioxide? Carbon dioxide may build up in water as a result of respiration by fish and bacteria. In poorly buffered water, this can cause a drop in pH below 7.0 that can inhibit nitrification. Aeration can drive off CO2 and, in the process, raise the pH. Adequate alkalinity will ensure stable pH and provide carbon for nitrifying bacteria. Carbon dioxide level can be estimated, using the graph on this page, if the pH and alkalinity are known. Hey thanks for the tip Berney, I missed it originally. Had a question about your info.... "Alkalinity should not fall below 80 mg/liter CaCO3, as it is the source of carbon for nitrifying bacteria and is consumed during nitrification." Would it help to add carbon media in the filter? ...Kodiak > >There was no KH left in the tank > >GH was also very low hovering around 30ppm, it seems my city [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > nitrifying bacteria. Carbon dioxide level can be estimated, using the graph on > this page, if the pH and alkalinity are known. >"Alkalinity should not >fall below 80 mg/liter CaCO3, as it is the source of carbon for nitrifying >bacteria and is consumed during nitrification." > >Would it help to add carbon media in the filter? No, the life forms won't use that form of carbon, they will colonize on it though. Carbon, as in filters, is more fuel for voodoo science. It is sometimes used as media for biofilters. It will reach equilibrium as a filter and not give off toxins. yup... like dumping a load of food in the tank. was there a male in the tank too? Ingrid > - The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over > a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were > then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were > laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system > could handle? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make. > yup... like dumping a load of food in the tank. was there a male in the tank too? Yup, and he did his duty, too. Damn.....once again, my fish suffer because of my ignorance. (hangs head in shame...) Gunther > Ingrid > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the > endorsements or recommendations I make. Gunther, so sorry to hear about your loss. I hope the other fish perks up. SignatureLaurie, Dark Phoenix dark_phoenix@netw.com Here I am! Now, what were your other two wishes? > Gunther, so sorry to hear about your loss. I hope the other fish perks up. Thanks for the good wishes, but despite my efforts, I've got an empty tank now. :-/ Gunther >> Gunther, so sorry to hear about your loss. I hope the other fish >> perks up. > > Thanks for the good wishes, but despite my efforts, > I've got an empty tank now. :-/ owwie! (removes hat and bows head...) -D Signature"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright |
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