Help request for sick goldfish
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Brad Isley - 21 May 2004 04:08 GMT I will be appreciative of help with this problem with my goldfish.
Tank info:
54 gallon allglass bowfront with overflow and wet/dry. About 250 gph through the filter. Large rounded rocks for gravel (3/4" to 1.5"). Not quite enough gravel to cover the glass. The idea is to not let the goldfish swallow smaller gravel yet allow them to move the rocks around to get the food off the tank bottom (which they do). Some fake plants are in the back in front of the overflow.
Water:
I use RO/DI with seachem equilibrium, alkaline and acid buffer to get the GH up to about 9-10. pH stays around 6.8. It's difficult to keep it stable over 7, so I stopped trying. During the initial startup of the tank about 8 months ago, there was a great deal of water changing to keep the ammonia and nitrites down, but that's old history. Currently, I do a 25% water change weekly. Nitrates are kept below 15ppm. I clean the glass every two weeks (it gets dirty quickly). I add 1 Tbsp instant ocean salt per 5 gallons as a medication. The tank is currently undergoing Melafix treatment (below).
Temperature stays around 75F. I realize this is high for goldfish, but I'm not sure how to fix it unless I remove the wet-dry pump from the sump and/or add a chiller.
Tank has 3 occupants: 1) Red Ryukin fantail (about 7" nose to tail) 2) White/gold/grey Oranda (about 7" nose to tail) 3) Redcap Oranda (about 5" nose to tail)
The white Oranda has health problems. He's a pretty cool guy who likes to be held and hand-fed (underwater, of course!) His cap is translucent white with an orange colored injury on the left side. The cap has swollen to cover his left eye. He also has tapeworms. Books I have consulted claim "the tapeworms aren't a serious problem, are almost impossible to cure, so don't worry." I'm not so sure...
The obvious health issues started about 6 weeks ago. He started resting on the bottom, listless. We began Melafix treatment and saw immediate improvement. The Melafix was discontinued after a week with a resulting return to poor health. It was at this time we noticed the tank's ex-resident black moor (3" youngster) sucking the slime off of him. We would sometimes see the oranda go nose-over upside down and rest on the bottom inverted. While this greatly disturbs other family members, it doesn't seem to bother the fish much. The muscle tissue next to one of his pectoral fins seems red, like it's inflamed or irritated. His breathing always seems labored compared to the other tank occupants.
The tank is back on Melafix. His health has improved, but the swollen cap, inflamed pectoral fin, breathing, and nose- overs aren't fixed yet.
I'd like to return this fish to good health. He's like a wet puppy to us. Suggestions?
We have several other tanks with no issues, but we did have a guppy tank which was wiped out by intestinal parasites. I suspect the guppy parasites are the source of the goldfish tapeworms.
On another note, I'd like to improve the apperance of the tank. The rocks are growing a sickly-looking covering of brown algae. We're not thrilled with the appearance of them either, even without the algae. What would be a good substrate for goldfish? The books we have read all suggest something too large for them to injest, but this size substrate allows food to go down between the rocks where the fish can't get to it, where it rots and pollutes the water. I've considered sand as an alternative.
Thanks in advance.
Geezer From The Freezer - 21 May 2004 08:45 GMT Don't use RO water - its not stable and could be a cause of your low PH. Get your PH up.How often are you changing water, and what frequency? You could try adding a salt level of 0.3% to the tank, this may help kill the tapeworm (but I'm not 100% sure on that!)
Brad Isley - 22 May 2004 15:36 GMT > Don't use RO water - its not stable and could be a cause of your low PH. > Get your PH up.How often are you changing water, and what frequency? You > could try adding a salt level of 0.3% to the tank, this may help kill the > tapeworm (but I'm not 100% sure on that!) In the note I mentioned seachem equilibrium. That's what I use to add back mineral content to the RO/DI water in all my tanks. I add enough to get the GH up to whatever the occupants like.
The tank gets a 25-50% change per week.
I'm adding instant ocean salt 1Tbsp/5gal.
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com - 22 May 2004 16:06 GMT dont use ocean salt with fresh water fish. use salt for fresh water. Ingrid
>> Don't use RO water - its not stable and could be a cause of your low PH. >> Get your PH up.How often are you changing water, and what frequency? You [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I'm adding instant ocean salt 1Tbsp/5gal. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make.
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com - 21 May 2004 14:32 GMT try RO Right (?) altho 6.8 pH is fine. dont use buffers meant for salt water tanks. you could get some organic dolomitic limestone to add a bit more calcium. the main thing dragging the pH down is nitrites, rotting organics in the gravel or filter. use regular water softening crystal salt and dont use the ocean salt. 75-78oF is ideal for GF. uhhh.. orandas wens (caps) continue to grow and do grow over eyes. it may not be a bruise. yeah, quit using melafix it is hard on gills and therefor breathing, get the sea salt out and use regular salt. add 1 teaspoon salt per 5 gallons, no additives, dissolve first, add slowly. do 50% water changes for the next 5 days (if you got the water for it). why do you think the fish has tape worms? what kind of aeration do you have in the tank? minimum for a tank that size is 3 large airstones. Ingrid
>I will be appreciative of help with this problem with my goldfish. > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > >Thanks in advance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make.
Brad Isley - 22 May 2004 15:41 GMT Why RO right instead of equilibrium? Curious... ;-)
Seachem acid and alkaline buffers are meant for planted tanks, so these should be fine, right? I use these in preference to the phosphate-based buffers.
Curious: what's wrong with using instant ocean? I use it because I have it around for the salt tank. I'll look for some "plain" non-iodized salt.
The cap has red streaks in the area above where it's growing over the eye.
I see tapeworms in the poop.
The overflow with wet/dry filter should give plenty of air exchange, yes? When I test O2 content, it's always nearly saturated.
thanks!
> try RO Right (?) altho 6.8 pH is fine. dont use buffers meant for salt water tanks. > you could get some organic dolomitic limestone to add a bit more calcium. the main [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the > endorsements or recommendations I make. dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com - 22 May 2004 21:12 GMT I dont know what equilibrium is. I just know that the Goldfish Guru recommends RO Right. get a salt/buffer system designed for fresh water and meant for fish, not plants. Ocean salts are not suitable for fresh water fish. what do you see of tapeworms, the segments? or a long thin white trailing substance? actually, no filter gives sufficient oxygenation for GF. GF need a big airstone per every 20 gallons, in fact 2 airstones for a 20 gallon. it moves the water from the bottom to the top which is better for GF especially fancy GF than anything moving sideways. Ingrid
>Why RO right instead of equilibrium? Curious... ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] >> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the >> endorsements or recommendations I make. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make.
Brad Isley - 25 May 2004 01:34 GMT Hi, Ingrid,
Thanks for the help. Comments inline...
> I dont know what equilibrium is. I just know that the Goldfish Guru recommends RO > Right. get a salt/buffer system designed for fresh water and meant for fish, not > plants. Equilibrium's intended purpose is the same as Kent's RO Right. The buffers I'm using are intended for fresh water.
> Ocean salts are not suitable for fresh water fish. Ok. I'll find some pure sodium chloride.
> what do you see of tapeworms, the segments? or a long thin white trailing substance? Perhaps it's not tapeworms. It's a long white trailing substance which looks a lot like a tapeworm. They have what appears to be a small head once out of the fish.
> actually, no filter gives sufficient oxygenation for GF. GF need a big airstone per > every 20 gallons, in fact 2 airstones for a 20 gallon. it moves the water from the > bottom to the top which is better for GF especially fancy GF than anything moving > sideways. I could add airstone or two, but the huge wet/dry filter and overflow is dissolving more O2 than any airstone or two ever could. The water is nearly saturated with O2 according to the Tetra test.
I have the return from the filter going to a spraybar which provides the movement you're suggesting (up), but there's always going to be some sideways movement if the water moves at all. The water going up has to go back down. To get down, it has to go sideways. ;-)
I'm making use of the materials on the puregold website and will get a "fish test" report out soon...
thanks!
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com - 25 May 2004 17:23 GMT >Equilibrium's intended purpose is the same as Kent's RO Right. >The buffers I'm using are intended for fresh water. .... that's great then
>Perhaps it's not tapeworms. It's a long white trailing substance >which looks a lot like a tapeworm. They have what appears to be a >small head once out of the fish. ...... long trailing white can be internal infection or represents white food being fed (like cooked rice). http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/technique/technique.html#JoAnns_diagnosis _by_poop it is more likely to be something like this. tapeworms normally come one per customer and they reproduce by shedding mature egg case segments of their "tape" not by dangling outside the fish.
>I could add airstone or two, but the huge wet/dry filter and overflow >is dissolving more O2 than any airstone or two ever could. The water >is nearly saturated with O2 according to the Tetra test. .... airstones do two things, they put oxygen into the water and also move water from the bottom to the top and set up a very beneficial flow of water. airstones also help move other gases out of the water. check some FAQS at aquatic ecosystems online. use a couple airstones. the fish even like surfing in the bubble stream.
>I have the return from the filter going to a spraybar which provides >the movement you're suggesting (up), but there's always going to be >some sideways movement if the water moves at all. The water going up >has to go back down. To get down, it has to go sideways. ;-) ...... well actually, waterfall type filters dont create sideways movement at all. Ingrid
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make.
Donald K - 26 May 2004 16:12 GMT > ...... well actually, waterfall type filters dont create sideways > movement at all. ?!!!?
Before I run out to my spare tank with food coloring, could you please clarify that statement?
Wouldn't the downward stream due to the water feeding into the tank need a corresponding upward flow at the other side? (And hence side to side flow?)
It's been a lot of years since Fluid Dynamics, but I seem to recall those equations being cross products...
-D
 Signature "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright
dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com - 27 May 2004 17:46 GMT now that I have had morning coffee and think about it I suspect determining the flow pattern of waterfall downward flow requires calculus (or a course in fluid dynamics) so I am not going to even think about it. there is probably some sideways flow. but for sideways I was comparing it to the flow of a power head that shoots out in one direction and it is horizontal. when I look at the bubbles or flow of my waterfall it seems to go down into the water and GF do seemed to be pushed a little down by waterfall, but I have never seen a GF pushed sideways by it, so it would seem the sideways flow is not strong anyway. sideways flow is not optimal for mixing water in a tank. a waterfall isnt either. air stones 1" off the bottom of the bottom moves the water from the bottom to the top and creates a bottom to top flow which does maximize mixing without pushing or fatiguing GF. Ingrid
>> ...... well actually, waterfall type filters dont create sideways >> movement at all. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >-D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make.
Donald K - 28 May 2004 05:26 GMT > now that I have had morning coffee and think about it I suspect > determining the flow pattern of waterfall downward flow requires > calculus (or a course in fluid dynamics) > so I am not going to even think about it. there is probably some > sideways flow. Yup, nasty 3 (and occasionally 4) D vector calculus to be precise.
There would have to be a sideways flow, otherwise you'd get a "heap" of water...
Coffee is good. :-)
-D
 Signature "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright
Tom L. La Bron - 29 May 2004 14:19 GMT Donald,
I don't know a lot about fluid dynamics and the math sure does escapes me, but I can observe my filters and their design, and I don't know what kind of filters you have, and I think Ingrid has said she has AquaClears, so I have Aquascapes and AquaClear filters and if the water level in your tank is not below the cascade of the filter, i.e., the edge of the filter cascade is below or at the water level, like it has been designed the water comes down off the cascade and hits a almost 90 degree lip on the cascade that directs the water across the top of the tank.
Now if the water level is below the cascade lip then the water is force outward a ways and it then drops into the water vertically causing a downward action water that causes a circular motion across the bottom of the tank to come up on the other side causing a circular movement of the water. My AquaClears are all brand new so this is how they are suppose to work forcing the water across the top of the tank because of the lip, but this only occurs if the water level in your tank is above or at the lip.
HTH
Tom L.L. ------------------------------------------
>>now that I have had morning coffee and think about it I suspect >>determining the flow pattern of waterfall downward flow requires [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -D dr-solo@wi.rr.xx.com - 29 May 2004 16:07 GMT when I look at my whispers what I see is turbulence right under the "return" and air bubbles going downward vertically (OK, I dont look at it from the side and see how far out the water moves horizontally. If the water is returning and pushing downward and the intake is right below (in my whispers, in the aquaclears it is off center) then it seems that the flow is a sorta short circular up and down path... maybe if it shoots out more it is still a complete circular up and down path right in front of the filter. The water sucking in at the bottom doesnt seem to pull stuff from the edges very well. I do wish somebody would do a dye experiment and put up an MPG. Ingrid
>> now that I have had morning coffee and think about it I suspect >> determining the flow pattern of waterfall downward flow requires [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >-D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net/ www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make.
BErney1014 - 24 May 2004 02:03 GMT >Why RO right instead of equilibrium? Curious... ;-) > >Seachem acid and alkaline buffers are meant for planted tanks, so >these should be fine, right? I use these in preference to the >phosphate-based buffers. You are correct, stick with seachem. Healthy plant=healthy fish. Equilibrium is excellent.
>I see tapeworms in the poop. Check again, they don't usually leave the fish.
>The overflow with wet/dry filter should give plenty of air exchange, >yes? When I test O2 content, it's always nearly saturated. Can't do much better than that.
|
|
|