Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
Mammals
FerretsGuinea PigsHamstersRabbitsRats
Aquaria
GeneralMarine ReefFreshwaterPlantsCichlidsGoldfish
Birds
BirdsParrots
Miscellaneous
Animal HealthPet Loss
PetKB.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Pet Forum / Mammals / Rats / August 2005



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

what to put on the bottom of the cage and what to use for bedding

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
daviid brough - 29 Aug 2005 17:45 GMT
Hi all

Recently rescued two young rats from being put to sleep and they seem to be
doing fine, luvly creatures and my youngsters youngest four handle them
without fear.

However getting so much conflicting advice re what is best to use to line
the cage and what is good for bedding thought I would see what you experts
think

Any help very welcome

David
Joanne - 29 Aug 2005 18:15 GMT
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> David

Hi David,

Stay away from all pine and cedar as well as any clumping cat litter.
You can use Aspen, Carefresh, corncob, Yesterday's News (recycled
newspaper turned into litter).
You could skip a full floor of bedding and just use cloth, towels,
bathmats and keep corner litter pans on each floor.

Joanne
Owned by 14 rats
Michael Rozdoba - 29 Aug 2005 19:16 GMT
> Stay away from all pine and cedar as well as any clumping cat litter.

Why no to the clumping cat litter? We use recycled corrugated card,
that's been chopped into small squares & dust extracted, for the cage
base & shredded junk mail for elsewhere, however they also have a litter
tray with cat litter.

It was suggested to stay away from clay based litters, however they seem
to prefer using them to the paper based. Any opinions on if clay based
can be safe & what's wrong with the ones that claim to be clumping?

Cheers,

Signature

Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

Joanne - 29 Aug 2005 20:02 GMT
>> Stay away from all pine and cedar as well as any clumping cat litter.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Cheers,

There are two types of clay base cat litter, the clumping kind and the
coarser non clumping kind. Both litters can and will get on rattie fur
and feet which in turn will be ingested by the grooming rattie. The
clumping kind is worse for blockage but the non clumping can do the same
as well.
Clay based litters are a breeding ground for bacteria and bad odors
unless you have added deodorizers which in turn can irritate rattie lungs.
The clay itself is fairly dusty and the small particles can easily enter
rattie lungs. As we know, our ratties tend to enjoy sleeping in their
litter trays.
Many vets don't recommend using clay base litters for our cats because
of ingestion and for causing respiratory problems. If it's a problem
with cats, it's definitely a problem with rats. ;)

Joanne
Owned by 14 rats
Michael Rozdoba - 29 Aug 2005 21:29 GMT
[snip clay is evil]

> If it's a problem
> with cats, it's definitely a problem with rats. ;)

That's pretty conclusive. Thanks for the comments. They'll just have to
make do with the paper stuff then.

Signature

Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

Kate - 30 Aug 2005 02:42 GMT
> [snip clay is evil]
>
>> If it's a problem with cats, it's definitely a problem with rats. ;)
>
> That's pretty conclusive. Thanks for the comments. They'll just have to
> make do with the paper stuff then.

I was using reycycld paper made into pellets for their toilets but they
enjoyed removing it and kicking it around that I gave up on it.  Also
the Pet shop was raising the price for it to the point where it was no
longer economical..:(

Regards Kate

Signature

Today I may meet with injustice, ignorance, denial, all of which are due
entirely to the other's lack of knowledge of good and evil and the
difference thereof.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ollieogg

Chance is the path God takes when he wants to remain anonymous
Albert Einstein.

Michael Rozdoba - 30 Aug 2005 18:16 GMT
>> [snip clay is evil]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I was using reycycld paper made into pellets for their toilets but they
> enjoyed removing it and kicking it around that I gave up on it.

That's why we were going to switch back to clay based, which got less
kicking & more pooing. Now the clay stuff is being kept for when we next
have Easter visiting for a few days (a cat named Easter, as any Tori fan
will know).

Signature

Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

Amanda D - 31 Aug 2005 00:30 GMT
When I got my first rat I was using cedar .Does anyone really know why
its bad?
paghat - 31 Aug 2005 01:04 GMT
> When I got my first rat I was using cedar .Does anyone really know why
> its bad?

It exudes toxic phenols. So do pine shavings.

-paghat the ratgirl
Signature

Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

Mark Tomlinson - 31 Aug 2005 05:14 GMT
You know why cedar chests are made of cedar?  Because that lovely smell is
toxic and keeps bugs away.  Well it's toxic to rats, too.  We use a mix of
aspen and CareFresh.

Signature

Mark Tomlinson
"I'm not a trouble maker; I am a catalyst for change."

> When I got my first rat I was using cedar .Does anyone really know why
> its bad?
Mad-Biker - 29 Aug 2005 22:34 GMT
Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i have
used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop dried and
filters stuff) in my rat cages. I have since stopped using the kitty litter
and have just soly used the woodshavings. however the cage i use has a wire
floor, and the litter is just  a  few cm below the floor to clean up any
mess that falls through.

im wondering if this has caused any problems with her lungs, 1 rats sneezez
a bit, the other is fine?

big open wire cage mind you

>>> Stay away from all pine and cedar as well as any clumping cat litter.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Joanne
> Owned by 14 rats
Michael Rozdoba - 29 Aug 2005 23:21 GMT
> Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i have
> used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop dried and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> big open wire cage mind you

I wouldn't like to say for certain myself, but... the wire mesh base can
cause bumblefoot :/

Signature

Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

Joanne - 29 Aug 2005 23:31 GMT
>> Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i
>> have used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I wouldn't like to say for certain myself, but... the wire mesh base can
> cause bumblefoot :/

This is a misconception. Bumblefoot is like a pressure soar. In fact,
rats that sit on hard solid levels in puddles of pee, are more likely to
get bumbles. This is why padding the cage down with nice thick carpets
or bathmats helps prevent bumblefoot.

Joanne
Owned by 14 rats
Mad-Biker - 30 Aug 2005 05:47 GMT
Exacly Jo, thats why i have some peices of marine carpet in there cage for
them to sit on. just so their feet are always on wire with all the weight on
one little bit.

>>> Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i
>>> have used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Joanne
> Owned by 14 rats
Michael Rozdoba - 30 Aug 2005 18:12 GMT
>> I wouldn't like to say for certain myself, but... the wire mesh
>> base can cause bumblefoot :/
>
> This is a misconception.

Really?

> Bumblefoot is like a pressure soar.

Exactly. So prolonged duration, increased weight or a decreased area of
contact would cause it. Mesh floors clearly result in the latter, unless
the rat constantly changes its footing.

> In fact, rats that sit on hard solid levels in puddles of pee, are
> more likely to get bumbles. This is why padding the cage down with
> nice thick carpets or bathmats helps prevent bumblefoot.

I'm sure our rats wouldn't complain about carpetting :)

Signature

Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

paghat - 30 Aug 2005 19:41 GMT
> >> I wouldn't like to say for certain myself, but... the wire mesh
> >> base can cause bumblefoot :/
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I'm sure our rats wouldn't complain about carpetting :)

This issue has been well studied under laboratory conditions on a variety
of small mammals & it has been found that clean wire floors DECREASE
rather increase the incident of bumblefoot by removing the animal from
conditions that permit contact with bacteria in wet shavings or slick or
soiled floors.

The exception is that rats already afflicted with bumblefoot  can have
their condition worsened by re-injury on wire due to their having no
feeling remaining in their feet. The other exception is RUSTY wire bottoms
which are abrasive & can hold bacteria almost as well as shavings.

-paghat the ratgirl
Signature

Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

paghat - 30 Aug 2005 19:51 GMT
REPOST re: BUMBLEFOOT

Bumblefoot & soar hocks are lay terms for pododermatitis. Many people are
under the mistaken impression that "wire cages" CAUSE bumblefoot -- it's a
myth that is repeated & repeated & never apt to be weeded out of the
amateur community, though the belief causes the contagious infection to be
spread because the mistaken "treatment" is to remove all the rats from
contact with wire rather than to separate infected animals before others
are infected, & sterilize all surfaces for staph. My main source for the
information below is the National Research Counsel's Committee on
Infectious Diseases in Rats and Mice, Washington, D.C.; plus articles I've
photocopied over time out of veterinary & laboratory vivarium journals. I
tried to find some good stuff on the net to cite as well, but all I could
find were the amateur FAQ sheets that blame wire flooring exclusively &
fail to mention the actual cause (bacteria). Debbi Demarcan's book
acknowledges first the role of bacteria -- one of the rare cases of a lay
expert getting it right -- but then cannot resist carrying on about wire
bottoms & fails to mention that radical cleanliness, keeping the
environment dry, & periodically sterilizing surfaces to eradicate staph
are the actual preventative measures.

Since the actual culprit is a bacteria, it is contageous in its early
stages. Careful studies in guinea pigs & rabbits have shown that wire
cages DO NOT cause bumblefoot & the incident of outbreak does not increase
with animals living on wire cage floors than those living on wooden floors
or amidst shavings. The exception is a single study in which animals kept
on RUSTY abrasive wire had a SLIGHT statistical increase in
pododermatitis; the rust harbors bacteria & the roughness of the rust
abrades the feet. Filthy, moist shavings are even more apt to harbor the
bacteria meaning cages without wire floors, but not kept dry & clean, are
the greater danger.

However, once the bacteria is established in the foot, all feeling in the
foot is lost. Injury & reinjury will hasten the progress of the disease.
Wire provides no protection for the foot, especially if the animal is
overweight or prone to leaping about while no longer able to tell how much
pressure it is putting on its own feet. An animal that already has
pododermatitis may therefore be at risk of further injury living on a
wire-bottomed cage.

The infection will in time cease to be contageous but leaves the foot with
a sort of leprosy that persists for the life of the rodent. Thus rats no
longer in the early active phases of bacterial infection, but in the later
stages of permanent soarhocks, do not need to live separate from other
rats.

Pododermatitis is "multi-factorial in etiology" to quote the veterinary
jargon, meaning ANY claim of a single cause won't always hit the mark in
all species or in all outbreaks. It's sometimes caused by virus
infections, occasionally by fungus infection, & often in tandem with one
or another myco bacteria, inducing papuals of the foot, not painful but
disfiguring.  Bacterial pododermatitis in farm animals has been
effectively prevented with vaccines but no one is working on a rat vaccine
equivalent. The bacteria is known to harbor in dirt & feces, suggesting
that rats' capacity to walk in their own feces is a contributing factor
that can be LESSENED by a wire floor. Usually present in afflicted rats is
staph infection, which is HIGHLY contagious, & apt to occur in filthy
cages of any stripe. But some papers admit an uncertainty that Staph is
the root cause which may instead be Myco (which does not harbor
exclusively in the lungs & can cause foot lesions & arthritis) and/or
viral, but the overt contagion is nevertheless most commonly staph.

Some diseases including those associated with Pododermatitis are unevenly
dispersed regionally. A Japanese study tracked one outbreak to an original
entrypoint in Japan, but it has since spread. It means there might be
outbreaks in, say, Flagstaff & appear to numerous ratkeepers with a
similar cause & outcome; but the experience of alarmed Flagstaffers will
have no baring on rat owners in, say, Seattle if it is not the same mix of
cause or disease strain. This is also why in some areas the disease is not
seen at all while in other regions bumblefoot is extremely common.

Pododermatitis is usually the outcome of a long period of systemic
depletion of the immune system coming in the aftermath of other illnesses,
or from general poor care or poor diet, or from undetectible subclinical
infections that are not so connected to quality of care (subclinical myco
for instance). Wet litter is the single most important factor -- staph can
harbor almost indefinitely in wet litter waiting for some foot injury to
tramp by. Obesity is also a factor, not necessarily (though possibly yes)
because of the extra weight of the animal but because obesity is a sign of
the ongoing improper care that has been wearing down the immune system
long before Pododermatitis erupts. The greater implication is that correct
diet & exercise is a preventative; whoever lets their rats get overweight
are probably doing much else wrong as well, diminishing their rats' immune
system.

I could find no controlled study on cage effects on rats per se, but there
are a handful of comparative studies for rabbits & guinea pigs, & scores
of studies on small caged livestock. A 1996 article by Rommers & Meijerhof
reported on a controlled experiment to see if actual outbreaks of
bacterial "soar hocks" was greater for rabbits on wire than on slats or on
synthetic mesh. They detected a marginal difference in favor of the wood
but did not regard it as so significant as to justify changes in
rabbitries (most of which place rabbits on wire-bottomed cages), and the
disease occurred in all cage types (they did not test glass). The
synthetic mesh was wire-like, by the way, without even the slight
statistical numbers against it.  Guinea pig studies (i.e., Ishihara, 1980)
indicate that Staphylococcus aureus is aggravated by RUSTED wire cages,
not otherwise with wire; I was reminded of the widespread sentiment that
if a kid falls on a rusty nail he risks blood poisoning because animal
urine adheres to rust, but punk rockers pierced themselves with clean
unrusted nails without fear.

Some studies are not conclusive, but none really condemn a clean
wire-bottomed cage when scientific eyes are applied to the situation. Some
authors (Besselsen, 1993, on cavies) do not suggest wire cages are a
hazard unless "rough & soiled" but does say the wire cage will increase
the problem AFTER a bacterial staph infection has erupted so that the
animal must live thereafter on a wooden floor kept scrupulously dry.  A
foot injury NOT caused by infectious lesion will heal in the manner of
normal wounds but those in which staph was transiently harbored will have
irreversible leprousy-like aftereffects of swollen disfigurement & loss of
feeling in the foot or feet. Aggressive antibiotic treatments & radical
cleanliness will clear up the infective agent & stop the rat from being
infectious to its fellow rats, but the harm done the individual animal is
for life.

-paghat the ratgirl
Signature

Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

Michael Rozdoba - 30 Aug 2005 21:09 GMT
> REPOST re: BUMBLEFOOT

[snip]

> -paghat the ratgirl

Now that kind of detail is very interesting. Thanks a lot :)

Are you the original poster of that article? If not, is there any chance
you have the message id of the original post? I'll pass that on whenever
this issue comes up & will mention it to our usual rattie gurus to see
what they have to say.

Thanks again,

Signature

Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

paghat - 30 Aug 2005 21:53 GMT
> > REPOST re: BUMBLEFOOT
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Thanks again,

It's my own article.

-paggers
Signature

Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

Michael Rozdoba - 31 Aug 2005 00:01 GMT
[snip]

> It's my own article.
>
> -paggers

Cheers. I'll pass it on, along with this group's name, to anyone
bringing up the evils of wire floors. Regards,

Signature

Michael
m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t

Joanne - 29 Aug 2005 23:28 GMT
> Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i have
> used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop dried and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> big open wire cage mind you

I don't think anyone can say for certain if that's what caused the
sneezing or scarred lungs. But personally, I wouldn't use any softwood
shavings just to be on the safe side.

Joanne
Owned by 14 rats
Mad-Biker - 30 Aug 2005 05:54 GMT
well i was just using cheep clay kitty litter for a few months, since she
got her lung problem, ive switched back to a open packet of wood shavings i
had.

i wont use the wood shavings in an enclosed cage, due to fumes building up,
but in an open cage, i think it should be ok.

>> Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i have
>> used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop dried
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Joanne
> Owned by 14 rats
Igenlode - 29 Aug 2005 21:00 GMT
> Recently rescued two young rats from being put to sleep and they seem to be
> doing fine, luvly creatures and my youngsters youngest four handle them
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the cage and what is good for bedding thought I would see what you experts
> think

I use old newspaper; torn into strips for bedding, laid out flat for the
tray at the bottom of the cage. The only thing you need to establish is
which way the grain of the paper runs, as it tears much better one way
than the other!

Yesterday's breaking news -- tomorrow's rat toilet ;-)
Signature

Igenlode            Visit the Ivory Tower   http://curry.250x.com/Tower/

New cliffhanger adventure story:  http://curry.250x.com/Tower/Fiction/Pirates/

Meghan - 29 Aug 2005 21:13 GMT
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> David

Congratulations on your rescues!!  I have 3 rats in a large cage and use
towels for a liner.  I was using Carefresh, which I highly recommend, but
the rats love hiding in the towels so much that I was finding I was
duplicating my efforts.  I put one large "beach" towel across the bottom
tray, then lay the cage on top of that so that the sides of the towel stay
down.  Then I just throw other bath size towels in on top of that and let
them do their arranging.  Of course the towels get chewed up, but they
usually last 6 months or so before they're completely obliterated.  I get
them at yard sales, thrift stores, and family members and I don't think I've
spent more than $5 this whole year on towels.

I do also have a corner litter pan and sometimes I throw some Carefresh in
there to absorb stuff, but usually they kick it out of there.  Sometimes
it's trial and error to see what your rats like.  I second the staying away
from pine and cedar.  They smell nice but it's not worth the respiratory
risk!

Meghan
elegy - 30 Aug 2005 02:24 GMT
>Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Any help very welcome

i personally use yesterday's news in the bottom of the cage and
shredded newspaper and papertowels for nesting.

--
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress
can be judged by the way its animals are treated" Ghandi
http://shattering.org
x-no-archive: yes in headers
Kate - 30 Aug 2005 02:38 GMT
> Hi all
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> David

My advice is to stay clear of wood chips or anything dusty.  When I had
cages I used lino tiles to cover the floors.  In the Mansion they have
now they have particle board which has been well covered with "contact"
 (stick on shelf lining..)  I have found this to be the most successful
when it comes to cleaning etc.

Regards Kate

Signature

Today I may meet with injustice, ignorance, denial, all of which are due
entirely to the other's lack of knowledge of good and evil and the
difference thereof.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ollieogg

Chance is the path God takes when he wants to remain anonymous
Albert Einstein.

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.