what to put on the bottom of the cage and what to use for bedding
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daviid brough - 29 Aug 2005 17:45 GMT Hi all
Recently rescued two young rats from being put to sleep and they seem to be doing fine, luvly creatures and my youngsters youngest four handle them without fear.
However getting so much conflicting advice re what is best to use to line the cage and what is good for bedding thought I would see what you experts think
Any help very welcome
David
Joanne - 29 Aug 2005 18:15 GMT > Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > David Hi David,
Stay away from all pine and cedar as well as any clumping cat litter. You can use Aspen, Carefresh, corncob, Yesterday's News (recycled newspaper turned into litter). You could skip a full floor of bedding and just use cloth, towels, bathmats and keep corner litter pans on each floor.
Joanne Owned by 14 rats
Michael Rozdoba - 29 Aug 2005 19:16 GMT > Stay away from all pine and cedar as well as any clumping cat litter. Why no to the clumping cat litter? We use recycled corrugated card, that's been chopped into small squares & dust extracted, for the cage base & shredded junk mail for elsewhere, however they also have a litter tray with cat litter.
It was suggested to stay away from clay based litters, however they seem to prefer using them to the paper based. Any opinions on if clay based can be safe & what's wrong with the ones that claim to be clumping?
Cheers,
 Signature Michael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
Joanne - 29 Aug 2005 20:02 GMT >> Stay away from all pine and cedar as well as any clumping cat litter. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Cheers, There are two types of clay base cat litter, the clumping kind and the coarser non clumping kind. Both litters can and will get on rattie fur and feet which in turn will be ingested by the grooming rattie. The clumping kind is worse for blockage but the non clumping can do the same as well. Clay based litters are a breeding ground for bacteria and bad odors unless you have added deodorizers which in turn can irritate rattie lungs. The clay itself is fairly dusty and the small particles can easily enter rattie lungs. As we know, our ratties tend to enjoy sleeping in their litter trays. Many vets don't recommend using clay base litters for our cats because of ingestion and for causing respiratory problems. If it's a problem with cats, it's definitely a problem with rats. ;)
Joanne Owned by 14 rats
Michael Rozdoba - 29 Aug 2005 21:29 GMT [snip clay is evil]
> If it's a problem > with cats, it's definitely a problem with rats. ;) That's pretty conclusive. Thanks for the comments. They'll just have to make do with the paper stuff then.
 Signature Michael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
Kate - 30 Aug 2005 02:42 GMT > [snip clay is evil] > >> If it's a problem with cats, it's definitely a problem with rats. ;) > > That's pretty conclusive. Thanks for the comments. They'll just have to > make do with the paper stuff then. I was using reycycld paper made into pellets for their toilets but they enjoyed removing it and kicking it around that I gave up on it. Also the Pet shop was raising the price for it to the point where it was no longer economical..:(
Regards Kate
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Michael Rozdoba - 30 Aug 2005 18:16 GMT >> [snip clay is evil] >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I was using reycycld paper made into pellets for their toilets but they > enjoyed removing it and kicking it around that I gave up on it. That's why we were going to switch back to clay based, which got less kicking & more pooing. Now the clay stuff is being kept for when we next have Easter visiting for a few days (a cat named Easter, as any Tori fan will know).
 Signature Michael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
Amanda D - 31 Aug 2005 00:30 GMT When I got my first rat I was using cedar .Does anyone really know why its bad?
paghat - 31 Aug 2005 01:04 GMT > When I got my first rat I was using cedar .Does anyone really know why > its bad? It exudes toxic phenols. So do pine shavings.
-paghat the ratgirl
 Signature Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here: http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson
Mark Tomlinson - 31 Aug 2005 05:14 GMT You know why cedar chests are made of cedar? Because that lovely smell is toxic and keeps bugs away. Well it's toxic to rats, too. We use a mix of aspen and CareFresh.
 Signature Mark Tomlinson "I'm not a trouble maker; I am a catalyst for change."
> When I got my first rat I was using cedar .Does anyone really know why > its bad? Mad-Biker - 29 Aug 2005 22:34 GMT Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i have used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop dried and filters stuff) in my rat cages. I have since stopped using the kitty litter and have just soly used the woodshavings. however the cage i use has a wire floor, and the litter is just a few cm below the floor to clean up any mess that falls through.
im wondering if this has caused any problems with her lungs, 1 rats sneezez a bit, the other is fine?
big open wire cage mind you
>>> Stay away from all pine and cedar as well as any clumping cat litter. >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Joanne > Owned by 14 rats Michael Rozdoba - 29 Aug 2005 23:21 GMT > Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i have > used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop dried and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > big open wire cage mind you I wouldn't like to say for certain myself, but... the wire mesh base can cause bumblefoot :/
 Signature Michael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
Joanne - 29 Aug 2005 23:31 GMT >> Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i >> have used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I wouldn't like to say for certain myself, but... the wire mesh base can > cause bumblefoot :/ This is a misconception. Bumblefoot is like a pressure soar. In fact, rats that sit on hard solid levels in puddles of pee, are more likely to get bumbles. This is why padding the cage down with nice thick carpets or bathmats helps prevent bumblefoot.
Joanne Owned by 14 rats
Mad-Biker - 30 Aug 2005 05:47 GMT Exacly Jo, thats why i have some peices of marine carpet in there cage for them to sit on. just so their feet are always on wire with all the weight on one little bit.
>>> Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i >>> have used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Joanne > Owned by 14 rats Michael Rozdoba - 30 Aug 2005 18:12 GMT >> I wouldn't like to say for certain myself, but... the wire mesh >> base can cause bumblefoot :/ > > This is a misconception. Really?
> Bumblefoot is like a pressure soar. Exactly. So prolonged duration, increased weight or a decreased area of contact would cause it. Mesh floors clearly result in the latter, unless the rat constantly changes its footing.
> In fact, rats that sit on hard solid levels in puddles of pee, are > more likely to get bumbles. This is why padding the cage down with > nice thick carpets or bathmats helps prevent bumblefoot. I'm sure our rats wouldn't complain about carpetting :)
 Signature Michael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
paghat - 30 Aug 2005 19:41 GMT > >> I wouldn't like to say for certain myself, but... the wire mesh > >> base can cause bumblefoot :/ [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I'm sure our rats wouldn't complain about carpetting :) This issue has been well studied under laboratory conditions on a variety of small mammals & it has been found that clean wire floors DECREASE rather increase the incident of bumblefoot by removing the animal from conditions that permit contact with bacteria in wet shavings or slick or soiled floors.
The exception is that rats already afflicted with bumblefoot can have their condition worsened by re-injury on wire due to their having no feeling remaining in their feet. The other exception is RUSTY wire bottoms which are abrasive & can hold bacteria almost as well as shavings.
-paghat the ratgirl
 Signature Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here: http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson
paghat - 30 Aug 2005 19:51 GMT REPOST re: BUMBLEFOOT
Bumblefoot & soar hocks are lay terms for pododermatitis. Many people are under the mistaken impression that "wire cages" CAUSE bumblefoot -- it's a myth that is repeated & repeated & never apt to be weeded out of the amateur community, though the belief causes the contagious infection to be spread because the mistaken "treatment" is to remove all the rats from contact with wire rather than to separate infected animals before others are infected, & sterilize all surfaces for staph. My main source for the information below is the National Research Counsel's Committee on Infectious Diseases in Rats and Mice, Washington, D.C.; plus articles I've photocopied over time out of veterinary & laboratory vivarium journals. I tried to find some good stuff on the net to cite as well, but all I could find were the amateur FAQ sheets that blame wire flooring exclusively & fail to mention the actual cause (bacteria). Debbi Demarcan's book acknowledges first the role of bacteria -- one of the rare cases of a lay expert getting it right -- but then cannot resist carrying on about wire bottoms & fails to mention that radical cleanliness, keeping the environment dry, & periodically sterilizing surfaces to eradicate staph are the actual preventative measures.
Since the actual culprit is a bacteria, it is contageous in its early stages. Careful studies in guinea pigs & rabbits have shown that wire cages DO NOT cause bumblefoot & the incident of outbreak does not increase with animals living on wire cage floors than those living on wooden floors or amidst shavings. The exception is a single study in which animals kept on RUSTY abrasive wire had a SLIGHT statistical increase in pododermatitis; the rust harbors bacteria & the roughness of the rust abrades the feet. Filthy, moist shavings are even more apt to harbor the bacteria meaning cages without wire floors, but not kept dry & clean, are the greater danger.
However, once the bacteria is established in the foot, all feeling in the foot is lost. Injury & reinjury will hasten the progress of the disease. Wire provides no protection for the foot, especially if the animal is overweight or prone to leaping about while no longer able to tell how much pressure it is putting on its own feet. An animal that already has pododermatitis may therefore be at risk of further injury living on a wire-bottomed cage.
The infection will in time cease to be contageous but leaves the foot with a sort of leprosy that persists for the life of the rodent. Thus rats no longer in the early active phases of bacterial infection, but in the later stages of permanent soarhocks, do not need to live separate from other rats.
Pododermatitis is "multi-factorial in etiology" to quote the veterinary jargon, meaning ANY claim of a single cause won't always hit the mark in all species or in all outbreaks. It's sometimes caused by virus infections, occasionally by fungus infection, & often in tandem with one or another myco bacteria, inducing papuals of the foot, not painful but disfiguring. Bacterial pododermatitis in farm animals has been effectively prevented with vaccines but no one is working on a rat vaccine equivalent. The bacteria is known to harbor in dirt & feces, suggesting that rats' capacity to walk in their own feces is a contributing factor that can be LESSENED by a wire floor. Usually present in afflicted rats is staph infection, which is HIGHLY contagious, & apt to occur in filthy cages of any stripe. But some papers admit an uncertainty that Staph is the root cause which may instead be Myco (which does not harbor exclusively in the lungs & can cause foot lesions & arthritis) and/or viral, but the overt contagion is nevertheless most commonly staph.
Some diseases including those associated with Pododermatitis are unevenly dispersed regionally. A Japanese study tracked one outbreak to an original entrypoint in Japan, but it has since spread. It means there might be outbreaks in, say, Flagstaff & appear to numerous ratkeepers with a similar cause & outcome; but the experience of alarmed Flagstaffers will have no baring on rat owners in, say, Seattle if it is not the same mix of cause or disease strain. This is also why in some areas the disease is not seen at all while in other regions bumblefoot is extremely common.
Pododermatitis is usually the outcome of a long period of systemic depletion of the immune system coming in the aftermath of other illnesses, or from general poor care or poor diet, or from undetectible subclinical infections that are not so connected to quality of care (subclinical myco for instance). Wet litter is the single most important factor -- staph can harbor almost indefinitely in wet litter waiting for some foot injury to tramp by. Obesity is also a factor, not necessarily (though possibly yes) because of the extra weight of the animal but because obesity is a sign of the ongoing improper care that has been wearing down the immune system long before Pododermatitis erupts. The greater implication is that correct diet & exercise is a preventative; whoever lets their rats get overweight are probably doing much else wrong as well, diminishing their rats' immune system.
I could find no controlled study on cage effects on rats per se, but there are a handful of comparative studies for rabbits & guinea pigs, & scores of studies on small caged livestock. A 1996 article by Rommers & Meijerhof reported on a controlled experiment to see if actual outbreaks of bacterial "soar hocks" was greater for rabbits on wire than on slats or on synthetic mesh. They detected a marginal difference in favor of the wood but did not regard it as so significant as to justify changes in rabbitries (most of which place rabbits on wire-bottomed cages), and the disease occurred in all cage types (they did not test glass). The synthetic mesh was wire-like, by the way, without even the slight statistical numbers against it. Guinea pig studies (i.e., Ishihara, 1980) indicate that Staphylococcus aureus is aggravated by RUSTED wire cages, not otherwise with wire; I was reminded of the widespread sentiment that if a kid falls on a rusty nail he risks blood poisoning because animal urine adheres to rust, but punk rockers pierced themselves with clean unrusted nails without fear.
Some studies are not conclusive, but none really condemn a clean wire-bottomed cage when scientific eyes are applied to the situation. Some authors (Besselsen, 1993, on cavies) do not suggest wire cages are a hazard unless "rough & soiled" but does say the wire cage will increase the problem AFTER a bacterial staph infection has erupted so that the animal must live thereafter on a wooden floor kept scrupulously dry. A foot injury NOT caused by infectious lesion will heal in the manner of normal wounds but those in which staph was transiently harbored will have irreversible leprousy-like aftereffects of swollen disfigurement & loss of feeling in the foot or feet. Aggressive antibiotic treatments & radical cleanliness will clear up the infective agent & stop the rat from being infectious to its fellow rats, but the harm done the individual animal is for life.
-paghat the ratgirl
 Signature Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here: http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson
Michael Rozdoba - 30 Aug 2005 21:09 GMT > REPOST re: BUMBLEFOOT [snip]
> -paghat the ratgirl Now that kind of detail is very interesting. Thanks a lot :)
Are you the original poster of that article? If not, is there any chance you have the message id of the original post? I'll pass that on whenever this issue comes up & will mention it to our usual rattie gurus to see what they have to say.
Thanks again,
 Signature Michael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
paghat - 30 Aug 2005 21:53 GMT > > REPOST re: BUMBLEFOOT > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks again, It's my own article.
-paggers
 Signature Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here: http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson
Michael Rozdoba - 31 Aug 2005 00:01 GMT [snip]
> It's my own article. > > -paggers Cheers. I'll pass it on, along with this group's name, to anyone bringing up the evils of wire floors. Regards,
 Signature Michael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t
Joanne - 29 Aug 2005 23:28 GMT > Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i have > used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop dried and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > big open wire cage mind you I don't think anyone can say for certain if that's what caused the sneezing or scarred lungs. But personally, I wouldn't use any softwood shavings just to be on the safe side.
Joanne Owned by 14 rats
Mad-Biker - 30 Aug 2005 05:54 GMT well i was just using cheep clay kitty litter for a few months, since she got her lung problem, ive switched back to a open packet of wood shavings i had.
i wont use the wood shavings in an enclosed cage, due to fumes building up, but in an open cage, i think it should be ok.
>> Thinking about the possible respitory problems with my rat friski, i have >> used clay based kitty litter, and oak wood shavings (the petshop dried [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Joanne > Owned by 14 rats Igenlode - 29 Aug 2005 21:00 GMT > Recently rescued two young rats from being put to sleep and they seem to be > doing fine, luvly creatures and my youngsters youngest four handle them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the cage and what is good for bedding thought I would see what you experts > think I use old newspaper; torn into strips for bedding, laid out flat for the tray at the bottom of the cage. The only thing you need to establish is which way the grain of the paper runs, as it tears much better one way than the other!
Yesterday's breaking news -- tomorrow's rat toilet ;-)
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Meghan - 29 Aug 2005 21:13 GMT > Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > David Congratulations on your rescues!! I have 3 rats in a large cage and use towels for a liner. I was using Carefresh, which I highly recommend, but the rats love hiding in the towels so much that I was finding I was duplicating my efforts. I put one large "beach" towel across the bottom tray, then lay the cage on top of that so that the sides of the towel stay down. Then I just throw other bath size towels in on top of that and let them do their arranging. Of course the towels get chewed up, but they usually last 6 months or so before they're completely obliterated. I get them at yard sales, thrift stores, and family members and I don't think I've spent more than $5 this whole year on towels.
I do also have a corner litter pan and sometimes I throw some Carefresh in there to absorb stuff, but usually they kick it out of there. Sometimes it's trial and error to see what your rats like. I second the staying away from pine and cedar. They smell nice but it's not worth the respiratory risk!
Meghan
elegy - 30 Aug 2005 02:24 GMT >Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Any help very welcome i personally use yesterday's news in the bottom of the cage and shredded newspaper and papertowels for nesting.
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Kate - 30 Aug 2005 02:38 GMT > Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > David My advice is to stay clear of wood chips or anything dusty. When I had cages I used lino tiles to cover the floors. In the Mansion they have now they have particle board which has been well covered with "contact" (stick on shelf lining..) I have found this to be the most successful when it comes to cleaning etc.
Regards Kate
 Signature Today I may meet with injustice, ignorance, denial, all of which are due entirely to the other's lack of knowledge of good and evil and the difference thereof.
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