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Pet Forum / Mammals / Rats / July 2006Mammary tumors
Since mammary tumors seem to be fairly common in rats, I'm hoping some of you can answer some questions about them. Does everyone agree that they need to be removed, or are there some circumstances when they should be left alone? How risky is tumor removal and what is the chance for recurrence? Also, what is a reasonable price to expect to pay for such a procedure and how long/difficult is the recovery period for a rat of about 20 months? Thanks, Laurie In younger rats, we have them removed. Period. But in our old ladies, like our Matty, we will watch it for a while and then get the Vet's opinion if the lump appears to be affecting the quality of life. It's a chance you take with the old ones; they may die during surgery, but that may be better than letting it go until it's inoperable.  SignatureMark Tomlinson "I'm not a trouble maker; I am a catalyst for change." > Since mammary tumors seem to be fairly common in rats, I'm hoping some of > you can answer some questions about them. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Laurie > Since mammary tumors seem to be fairly common in rats, I'm hoping some of > you can answer some questions about them. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Laurie Mammary tumors are almost always benign tumors. But they suck the life out of the rat. When one mammary tumor pops out, it's almost certain more are going to follow, but not always. The best prevention to mammary tumors is having your female spayed at a very young age. Considerations for a removal: a very good knowledgeable vet and a healthy rat. I get all my female rats spayed. Some get spayed young like 5 weeks and others get spayed old because I take in rescues. I've had some spayed as old as 21 months. If you go ahead with a tumor removal, I would suggest doing a spay at the same time. Yes, early spay is much better but I've noticed that a spay in later months also prevented growth/recurrence in most of my females. Recovery in a young rat is fast... in an older girl like 20 months, I would say 3 to 5 days. If choosing a tumor removal with or without spay ask for pain management: metacam, she will most likely need it and will help speed up her recovery. I hope this helps, if you have anymore questions please ask away, I've had tons of spays/neuters/tumor removals done, male and female. SignatureJoanne Owned by 22 rats. Webshots: http://community.webshots.com/user/joanneb70 ------------------------------------------------------- ~Ignorance is not innocence but sin. *Robert Browning* I have to agree with Joanne, to do a preventative spay where possible. Really, it ends up being much cheaper in the end and not only lowers mammary tumour instances, but also pituitary tumours (which are also hormone affected and are inoperable). I would only opt to NOT remove a mammary tumour in a rat that was so unwell that they stand a very good chance of either dying during surgery, or will spend the rest of whatever short time they have in agony recovering. I would also take into account how much time I thought they would have, and if the tumour would affect what time they had left. I had one girl who had three mammary tumours. The first one I had removed, and she was spayed, at around 22 months old. She bounced back with no problems at all. The second was also removed at around 25 months, which she took a bit longer to recover from. Then at around 29 months, a third developed that I opted to not have removed because her health had deteriorated considerably since the second removal. It never had a chance to grow large enough to affect her quality of life. When she passed away, from respiratory disease, the tumour was about double the size of a big grape (maybe a bit smaller, it is hard to remember), and it did not impede her in any way. My vet charges around the $200cdn mark for spaying. Maybe a bit less, I can't really remember. On a 20 month old rat that was in good overall health, I would not hesitate to do the surgery. She still has the potential of many months of quality life. > Since mammary tumors seem to be fairly common in rats, I'm hoping some of > you can answer some questions about them. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks, > Laurie I do want to add a couple of other points. (Remember, we are talking about an elderly rat.) The vet will let us know if the tumor is imbedded in tissue or not. If the tumor is imbedded, then we most certainly do not put the rodent's life on the line because the surgery will be long and difficult and recovery will be longer or not at all. Be prepared to make the difficult "quality of life" decision when the tumor grows to become a hindrance. Many tumors, however, appear just below the skin and can be removed with minimum intrusion. In these cases, our vet recommends the tumor should be removed while still small and before it becomes imbedded. I agree with spaying young females as preventative medicine. However, it is costly (you are paying for the complexity of the operation, so smaller usually costs more) and requires a good vet who has works with rodents often. This may - regrettably - be beyond the means of many rat owners and risky if the vet is not a good "rat doctor". We have a very good vet and the means to pay for the operation, so we have it done SignatureMark Tomlinson "I'm not a trouble maker; I am a catalyst for change." >I have to agree with Joanne, to do a preventative spay where possible. > Really, it ends up being much cheaper in the end and not only lowers [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> Thanks, >> Laurie > I agree with spaying young females as preventative medicine. However, it is > costly (you are paying for the complexity of the operation, so smaller > usually costs more) and requires a good vet who has works with rodents > often. This may - regrettably - be beyond the means of many rat owners and > risky if the vet is not a good "rat doctor". We have a very good vet and > the means to pay for the operation, so we have it done I'm interested in exploring this further, but my wife isn't keen, partly due to the risk of the op but mostly I think as she feels it isn't fare on the rat to take away a core part of what makes them who they are (my words, but I think that's the sentiment). That's not a criticism of anyone here, just another person's feelings. Can anyone help convince us otherwise? I don't want to play god other than when necessary, but we all know how horrible it is to watch them die & as that's usually down to tumours or respiratory problems, anything to reduce one needs to be considered. We're at our vets again in a couple of hours so we'll get her opinion too. Hopefully Mea's bandage comes off today, though I'm worried it has caused some tissue damage, perhaps a combination of a bed sore type injury & the bandage being stuck to & pulling on the skin. Thanks. SignatureMichael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t >> I agree with spaying young females as preventative medicine. However, >> it is costly (you are paying for the complexity of the operation, so [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thanks. When I first started out with rats, I had all males but my sister had all females. She had 13 rats. By the time half reached 20 months, they had tumors. My sister was devastated. We talked to our vet and she recommended removal and spay. So my sister had all 13 rats spayed and those with tumors, had them removed. The rats were 15 to 21 months old at the time. Out of 13, only two had a recurring mammary tumor. A tumor removal cost us $350 while a spay is $240, not only is a spay cheaper but it also gives our rats a better life and also decreases the chance of pituitary tumors. My mom adopted four girls at a very young age, had them spayed and today they are 15 months old and still no tumors. She then rescued 5 females ranging in age of 3 months to 12months. All were spayed and still no tumors. I myself have had 3 females spayed at about 9 months old, two have died of myco at 24 months while the third is still with me at 28 months, all no tumors. I also have 3 females that are now 16 months old and were spayed at 6 weeks, no tumors as of yet. I rescued 2 females, had them spayed at 18 months old, they are now 26 months old and still no tumors. So for me, the numbers speak volume. My vet is also an excellent exotic vet and I trust her completely. I've had some of my males neutered. Taking away their reproductive capabilities does not take away from them, in fact it gives them renewed life. My males that were neutered due to hormonal stress have become the perpetual baby rat, popcorning and happy all the time. Same with the females, before the spay, I had a couple that was somewhat nippy and territorial, after the spay they became happy and docile. Hormones create anxiety and stress. There's nothing wrong in helping them overcome it. Also... as far as invasive procedures, my male rat Tripp had a malignant tumor in bedded in his side muscle. At 23 months, it was removed, some muscle had to be cut away. Tripp came out of it great, hardly any recovery time and lived to be 30 months old. My mom had a rat develop a carcinoma on his leg at 24 months old. Three times it was removed. And finally the leg amputated. After surgery, the very day, Sven wanted out of his hospital cage and tried to go exploring. He was fast and agile on his three legs. He lived in a huge multilevel ferret cage with 4 cagebuddies and Sven remained the alpha. He died of heart failure at 32 months. If a female rat enters my home, she will be spayed unless she has some respiratory issues. I will do anything to prolong their life. SignatureJoanne Owned by 22 rats. Webshots: http://community.webshots.com/user/joanneb70 ------------------------------------------------------- ~Ignorance is not innocence but sin. *Robert Browning* Mammary tumours are, the majority of the time, benign and will not be attached to any organs or bone. They are within the mammary gland, self contained within a membrane, and are basically 'floating' around inside the body cavity. Removal is fairly easy, especially if the tumour is relatively small. When they have become huge, they do interfer with other parts of the body, especially muscles, nerves and tendons and whatnot, and do become more difficult to remove. I remember a female that my friend took into her small rescue, she had an enormous mammary tumour under one of her back legs, in the groin area. It was allowed to go so long that she was not able to move the back leg that it had developed under. My friend had the tumour removed, and even then it took her a very long time to get fairly normal usage from that back leg because all the muscles, nerves and tendons had been stretched out so badly. For many weeks after the surgery, the little girl dragged that back leg behind her until she could work the muscles and nerves again. Tumours should never, ever be left that long before they are removed, that is cruel. She eventually recovered and lived out her life with her neutered boyfriend. Chances are, if you have a tumour that is attached to bone and/or organs, it is something other than your typical benign mammary tumour, which is really more of what is being discussed. Chances are that it is a malignant tumour and something a lot more serious, and in some cases inoperable. Tumours that are more aggressive, attaching themselves to other tissues have to be taken on a per tumour basis as far as deciding what action to take. Again, the cost factors are really a no brainer as far as spaying vs tumour removals are concerned. My vet will do a spay for around $200, but a tumour removal starts at about $250. And that is a start cost only, the bigger the tumour, the longer the surgery, the more anethesia required, and the higher the cost. Plus, if you are removing one tumour, chances are that you are going to remove at least another before the rats health is an issue. I just want to point out one other thing that has not been brought up. Although females have much, much higher instances of mammary tumours, it is not unheard of for males to get them as well, although it is rare. Again, the tumours are benign and are easy to remove if done fairly early. I have had those types of tumours removed from male rats, and I have an older male right now that has one on his side, close to his belly. Unfortunately, he is not well and would probably not do well in surgery, so I have opted to keep an eye on it and not do surgery at this time. It is very small, and not seeming to be growing that much, and considering his health, will probably not impact his quality of life. Where I have had them removed from my males, the procedure was very successful and they have recovered very easily. I even have one in a jar of formaldehyde at home. > A tumor removal cost us $350 while a spay is $240, not only is a spay > cheaper but it also gives our rats a better life and also decreases the > chance of pituitary tumors. > When I first started out with rats, I had all males but my sister had > all females. She had 13 rats. By the time half reached 20 months, they [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > cheaper but it also gives our rats a better life and also decreases the > chance of pituitary tumors. How does one afford to have 13 rats spayed? :o Signaturehttp://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/ http://theunfunnysequel.ytmnd.com/ http://lolpilot.ytmnd.com/ http://peeweemisseshisbike.ytmnd.com/ http://granategranate.ytmnd.com/ >> When I first started out with rats, I had all males but my sister had >> all females. She had 13 rats. By the time half reached 20 months, they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > How does one afford to have 13 rats spayed? :o Line of credit... lol SignatureJoanne Owned by 22 rats. Webshots: http://community.webshots.com/user/joanneb70 ------------------------------------------------------- ~Ignorance is not innocence but sin. *Robert Browning* Ok, I'm quite late coming into this one, but I can't sit back and say nothing because this is something I know a LOT about. Ok, first of all, DO NOT spay, there is NO hard evidence to support the theory that it prevents tumours, and if it did, it would only prevent hormone dependent tumours, many mammary tumours aren't hormone dependent. Spaying is an EXTREMELY invasive procedure, one layer of skin, plus fat and muscle has to be incised in order to even get into the body cavity, meaning internal stitches as well as external, meaning a higher possibility of irritation and infection. Rats are known to react badly to internal sutures. If wanting to spay to have a rat live with the opposite sex, I'd always suggest castration instead because castration is simpler, quicker, and far less invasive as long as it's done through the scrotum rather than the abdomen, that's a technique which should never be used in rats. But I digress... In almost 7 years, I've had countless rats with tumours of all kinds, rarely malignant, and the majority of them have been removed, right up into the rats later life, I believe I've had a tumour removed when a rat was approaching 3 years old, she survived the surgery (I've never lost a rat under anaesthesia) and recovered perfectly well. Pain medications such as Metacam can be used, but with caution in older rats, and never in rats with suspected kidney problems because it can cause further impairment. If when using Metacam you rat has blackened stools, discontinue use immediately. I would always say that yes, prevention is better than a cure, so after any tumour removal, a maintenance dose of Mycoplex Coriolus with or without shark cartilage should be given for the rest of the rat's life. Also a full dose is good to try on older rats who have developed tumours, it can only shrink tumours with a healthy blood supply, but I've had a great deal of success with using it, either the tumour slows down, stops growing, or is forced into remission and eventually turns into an abscess which is drained and heals up with antibiotics. Any interested parties can view my document about it here: http://www.freewebs.com/miscrats/howtotreatatumour.htm That page is image-free, but the rest of my site does show such things as tumours after removal and is quite graphic, but the document I've linked to is fine. Basically, if considering surgery, you need an experienced vet. Tumour surgery isn't rocket science (I've done one myself, post mortem), unless, in extremely rare cases, the tumour is surrounding veins or arteries, or is attached to an organ. The vet won't be able to tell for certain until the rat is opened up though, X rays won't show anything worthwhile, so don't be caught with that. Considerations are: what type of anaesthesia the vet will be using, never allow injectibles, always have gas, never halothane, always either Isofluorane or, even better, Sevoflourane which is the safest to use, but somewhat more expensive. Worth the extra money to ensure your rat stays safe though. Whenever I've had rats have surgery with low level lung damage, my vet always uses Sevoflow and I've never had any problems. That leads me to another consideration, general health of the rat. If your vet isn't happy operating because of rattly lungs or something, that's fine, but ask that the chest problem be treated and schedule surgery for after the course of treatment is finished. Age isn't a factor, health is more important. I've had rats reach 3 years old who are as healthy as a youngster. I'm in the UK, my vet charges £15 for a buck castration (approx $30), about £30 for a doe spay (approx $60) and I believe, depending on any complications that may arise, between £40 and £50 for tumour removal (which is around $100). In my opinion, too many American vets are in it just for the money and seem to charge ridiculous prices and fail to justify their prices when people have confronted them. Bev x As I will gladly agree that spaying is a very invasive procedure, in all animals not just rats, and that it should be treated with the seriousness that it deserves, I cannot agree with your below statement. Both Joanne and her family have had many rats, and I mean MANY between them. If Joanne is reporting almost 0% instance of rat tumours occuring between her and her family, when so many people report mammary tumours in females, I would very much consider that a great deal of hard evidence to support spaying at a young age. I can offer my limited female experience to two females out of almost 50 rats in my life, and both developed tumours and neither were spayed. Maybe you should reread Joanne's post, as she goes into a great deal of detail regarding when they have done the procedure, how many of their females used to get tumours before their spaying policy, and how many have gotten tumours since they began to spay all of them. there is NO hard evidence to support the theory that it prevents tumours, and if it did, it would only prevent hormone dependent tumours, many mammary tumours aren't hormone dependent. > As I will gladly agree that spaying is a very invasive procedure, in > all animals not just rats, and that it should be treated with the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I can offer my limited female experience to two females out of almost > 50 rats in my life, and both developed tumours and neither were spayed. But where is the evidence to suggest that those rats would ever have gotten tumours anyway? Not all rats do, and in my experience even rats from genetic lines with many tumours in them, don't always develop tumours. That's my point, until there is hard evidence to suggest that the spayed rats would DEFINITELY have developed tumours without being spayed, then the risk of complications during spaying surgery is too great. Tumour removal is a MUCH less invasive procedure, much less painful, much faster and much easier in about 90% of cases, the more difficult tumours to remove are those left to grow, or thise which grow in or around organs, so I see no sense in subjecting a young animal to what I would consider unneccesary surgery. Having a doe spayed at the same time as having a tumour removed in that area would be better, but of course at that time, if the tumours have developed as a result of hormones, then they'll be in the system and still causing the tumours. I would like to stress that rats will still be very prone to fatty benign tumours whether spayed or not, and these are often fast growing and will quickly cause problems and will have to be surgically removed. They can be more nasty than the malignancies because of their rate of growth. I still maintain that a far better way of preventing tumours is by giving Mycoplex Coriolus with or without Shark Cartilage. I've had many rats myself, all from different lines, different breeders, different backgrounds, spayed and unspayed, and there is nothing in my own experience to suggest that spaying is worth putting the animal through such a procedure. Bev x > I would always say that yes, prevention is better than a cure, so after > any tumour removal, a maintenance dose of Mycoplex Coriolus with or > without shark cartilage should be given for the rest of the rat's life. > http://www.freewebs.com/miscrats/howtotreatatumour.htm Very interesting. Note your url for a uk source is now not found. I think the correct version is currently http://www.naturalpetcare.co.uk/petshop/product_info.php?products_id=233 Can you check this & confirm? I can't see a value for the concentrations, though they give a dosage of 1/4 tablet every other day for rats. I've contacted them for info on concentration per tablet. I'd be interested if you can confirm their dosage too or suggest otherwise. > I'm in the UK, my vet charges £15 for a buck castration (approx $30), > about £30 for a doe spay (approx $60) and I believe, depending on any > complications that may arise, between £40 and £50 for tumour removal > (which is around $100). I see you list one rat savvy vet in the UK - I assume in your area. Can anyone make any recommendations in the Sunderland area of the North East of England? We're generally very happy with our vet, but it can't hurt to look for others with greater experience. SignatureMichael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t >> I would always say that yes, prevention is better than a cure, so after >> any tumour removal, a maintenance dose of Mycoplex Coriolus with or [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > concentrations, though they give a dosage of 1/4 tablet every other day > for rats. I've contacted them for info on concentration per tablet. Those are the 500mg tablets, so they're advising half the dosage you suggest. How did you arrive at your dosage? > I'd be interested if you can confirm their dosage too or suggest otherwise. SignatureMichael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t > Ok, I'm quite late coming into this one, but I can't sit back and say > nothing because this is something I know a LOT about. [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > Bev x According to my very knowledgeable vet, they do have the stats to back up the spay debate. I do admit though that female rats in the UK don't seem to get as many tumors as our American rats. Don't know why that is... But the fact remains in America, 80% of females will develop a mammary tumor. If spayed young, only 4% of rats will develop tumors. I've tried the Mycoplex on three different rats, 2 females and 1 male, two at a the beginning stage of a tumor and 1 at the middle stage. Mycoplex with shark cartilage had not effect whatsoever on the tumors. I would have loved for it to work. If it did, all my rats would be on it. But for now, what works for us are the spays. SignatureJoanne Owned by 22 rats. Webshots: http://community.webshots.com/user/joanneb70 ------------------------------------------------------- ~Ignorance is not innocence but sin. *Robert Browning* >>> When I first started out with rats, I had all males but my sister had >>> all females. She had 13 rats. By the time half reached 20 months, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Line of credit... lol I imagine! Now *that's* love! Signaturehttp://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/ http://theunfunnysequel.ytmnd.com/ http://lolpilot.ytmnd.com/ http://peeweemisseshisbike.ytmnd.com/ http://granategranate.ytmnd.com/ > I've had some of my males neutered. Taking away their reproductive > capabilities does not take away from them, in fact it gives them renewed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Hormones create anxiety and stress. There's nothing wrong in helping > them overcome it. I don't dispute any of your experience or even what you've written above, but... the above is kind of at the core of why I think many people prefer not to engage in these sort of modifications. For the good or bad, they will involve a personality change, due to altered hormone levels. I don't mean to draw silly, extreme & ill conceived parallels, but such measures can be taken with all animals including humans & at times this is done, by chemical or surgical means, for personal, medical or social reasons, sometimes without consent. It does indeed produce the results you describe. I guess at heart I'm just saying I'm uneasy doing something to an animal that I wouldn't want done to myself or my family members, were they unable to consent. Of course in reality we have to make similar decisions often in respect of pet care & one could argue if one is keeping a single sex non breeding colony, one is already imposing a very unnatural & restrictive lifestyle on the animals. I don't know. For myself I'll have to give this a lot more thought. Thanks for your account. Always appreciated. SignatureMichael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t >> I've had some of my males neutered. Taking away their reproductive >> capabilities does not take away from them, in fact it gives them [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Thanks for your account. Always appreciated. I was watching a program on Animal Planet. The Pony was an angry pony, wouldn't let people go near him, always charging and kicking. It was found out that he had a heart murmur, it rated 5 on a scale of 1 to 5. The vet was sure it would not survive but said his best chance would be a neuter. To everyone's surprise, the pony became a happy, stable and friendly pony. The owner's daughter was able to feed him and play with him. If that's the kind of personality change it will bring on in animals... then that's more of a reason to do neuters and spays. BTW, my dad, my husband, my brother in law have been "fixed" and my mom has had a hysterectomy... no personality change, no feelings of being inadequate or unworthy of being a human being. Just food for thought. :) SignatureJoanne Owned by 22 rats. Webshots: http://community.webshots.com/user/joanneb70 ------------------------------------------------------- ~Ignorance is not innocence but sin. *Robert Browning* > BTW, my dad, my husband, my brother in law have been "fixed" and my mom > has had a hysterectomy... no personality change, no feelings of being > inadequate or unworthy of being a human being. Not really the same thing, though... *shudders* Signaturehttp://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/ http://theunfunnysequel.ytmnd.com/ http://lolpilot.ytmnd.com/ http://peeweemisseshisbike.ytmnd.com/ http://granategranate.ytmnd.com/ > I was watching a program on Animal Planet. The Pony was an angry > pony, wouldn't let people go near him, always charging and kicking. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it will bring on in animals... then that's more of a reason to do > neuters and spays. :) I understand what you're saying, but... > BTW, my dad, my husband, my brother in law have been "fixed" While I will probably have a vasectomy at some point in my life, that's a /totally/ different procedure to a castration. There are plenty of cases of men choosing castration for various reasons, so if you want to know more about its effects, the data's available. Also you might like to look up the history of the Castrato (briefly, castration of boys before reaching puberty to ensure a unique singing voice - it went on until the late 1800's. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato. This by design produced major physical & psychological developmental changes). > and my mom has had a hysterectomy... I know much less about how a hysterectomy differs from a spay & little about hysterectomies, however I have encountered a range of accounts on the impact of a hysterectomy on the individual. Google also suggests there are arguments & experience for both sides of the claim that it can alter personality & libido, so the answer is unlikely to be cut and dried. > no personality change, no feelings of being inadequate or unworthy of > being a human being. I'm glad that's you family's experience. As to the latter point, I'd probably be concerned about these procedures even if it was guaranteed the individual would be 'happy' with the results afterwards. That wouldn't rule out the possibility that the individual hadn't been changed in a dramatic way which, if they were able, they might not have chosen /before/ the process. Not that I'm comparing the procedures, but for illustration of my general point, lobotomies were performed into the 1950s (http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/lobotomy.html) and many lobotomy patients wouldn't have dreamed of complaining about the process, afterwards. > Just food for thought. :) Food always welcome :) SignatureMichael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t > I know much less about how a hysterectomy differs from a spay & little > about hysterectomies, however I have encountered a range of accounts on > the impact of a hysterectomy on the individual. Google also suggests > there are arguments & experience for both sides of the claim that it can > alter personality & libido, so the answer is unlikely to be cut and dried. A hysterectomy is the removal of the uterus, leaving the ovaries. A spay is a removal of both uterus and ovaries. The ovaries are responsible for sex hormones in women. Signaturehttp://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/ http://theunfunnysequel.ytmnd.com/ http://lolpilot.ytmnd.com/ http://peeweemisseshisbike.ytmnd.com/ http://granategranate.ytmnd.com/ >> I know much less about how a hysterectomy differs from a spay & little >> about hysterectomies, however I have encountered a range of accounts on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The ovaries are responsible for sex hormones in women. Ah, so there is the same difference, more or less, between a hysterectomy & a spay as there is between a vasectomy & a castration/neuter. Thanks for the info. SignatureMichael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t [spaying] > I'm interested in exploring this further, but my wife isn't keen, partly > due to the risk of the op but mostly I think as she feels it isn't fare > on the rat to take away a core part of what makes them who they are (my > words, but I think that's the sentiment). That's not a criticism of > anyone here, just another person's feelings. Thanks for all the responses, which clearly warrant careful consideration. Unfortunately, our current vet doesn't do many spays in small furries, so if we want to consider this in the future we'd first need to find another vet. I'll bring this up with local breeders to get their views when I next get the chance. SignatureMichael m r o z a t u k g a t e w a y d o t n e t |
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