lice (again)

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Tim Newsome - 23 Dec 2006 18:53 GMT

It looks like our last go around didn't get rid of all the lice, and they're
back. :-( So we got more ivermectin, just shampoo'd Mr. Blue, and are cleaning
out cages. My question is, how well do we need to clean out the rats' play
area? Our vet said that lice can't survive without a host so if they're left
on the floor for long enough, they will die. How long is long enough? A day? A
week? We could definitely move the rats to a different play area for a week,
and then switch them back, etc. That way we don't have to completely clean the
play area every time we give them a dose, which is a lot of work and can take
a few hours.

Everything I've seen on the web just mentions to really clean the cage, but
doesn't mention the play area at all.

Thanks, and Happy Holidays!

Tim

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Tim Newsome nuisance.at.casualhacker.net http://www.casualhacker.net/

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Dewi - 23 Dec 2006 22:24 GMT

I know with human head lice it takes 5 days for the buggers to die
without their host. I'd give it 7 days just in case.

Dewi.

> It looks like our last go around didn't get rid of all the lice, and they're
> back. :-( So we got more ivermectin, just shampoo'd Mr. Blue, and are cleaning
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> --
> Tim Newsome nuisance.at.casualhacker.net http://www.casualhacker.net/

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Vanessa - 24 Dec 2006 01:34 GMT

I would treat their play area with a bird mite/lice spray and then wait
24 hours for them to play in it again.
When I have dealt with lice/mites, I have purchased the spray tins for
bird parasites and sprayed the area, especially because my rats play
area is mostly wood and mites love to burrow in wood.
I wouldn't ever use the stuff directly on the rats, although I know
some people do, but I would use it on their play area.
It would help to give it a good vaccuum after using the spray and
before the rats play in it again. It is something that would have to
be done a few times, while they are still on the rats, because the area
would still be a risk after the rats are in it.
My understanding with lice is that they only live 24 hours without a
host, and they don't travel that much. Mites are much more of a
concern because they live longer, some will live on mulitple species,
and they can travel far and quickly.
There is some great information about lice here:
http://ratguide.com/health/figures/ectoparasites_figure_4.php
http://ratguide.com/health/figures/ectoparasites_figure_3.php
http://ratguide.com/health/integumentary_skin/ectoparasites.php

> > It looks like our last go around didn't get rid of all the lice, and they're
> > back. :-( So we got more ivermectin, just shampoo'd Mr. Blue, and are cleaning
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> > --
> > Tim Newsome nuisance.at.casualhacker.net http://www.casualhacker.net/

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Tim Newsome - 27 Dec 2006 03:00 GMT

> I would treat their play area with a bird mite/lice spray and then wait
> 24 hours for them to play in it again.

I've never heard of lice spray, but I'll check it out. That sounds very
useful.

> My understanding with lice is that they only live 24 hours without a
> host, and they don't travel that much.

Do you have a source for that, or a reference to something where I could read
more about lice? I'd like to read something more authoritative than one
person's opinion on Usenet.

> There is some great information about lice here:
> http://ratguide.com/health/figures/ectoparasites_figure_4.php
> http://ratguide.com/health/figures/ectoparasites_figure_3.php
> http://ratguide.com/health/integumentary_skin/ectoparasites.php

Thanks for the links, but I'd already found them. :-)

I appreciate all your info. Sorry I replied so late, but we were out of time
for Christmas.

Tim

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Tim Newsome nuisance.at.casualhacker.net http://www.casualhacker.net/

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Vanessa - 27 Dec 2006 16:24 GMT

My comment isn't based on my opinion. Other than the fact that I
consider lice to be the lesser of many parasite evils, lice is not
something I really have an opinion on. The information that I have
about rat parasites has been given to me in visits that I have had with
veterinarians.
Parasites differ from country to country, climate to climate,
conditions to conditions. Diagnosing which parasite your rats have,
and what the most successful course of treatment is to take, is not
something that can be done over the internet at all.
If you would like to obtain more reliable and authoritative information
about rat parasites and safe treatment options, then I would suggest
that you make an appointment with your veterinarian and discuss it like
I did, and not rely on finding safe and accurate information on a
uesnet group at all.
The internet is a great place to find information that can assist you
and your vet in determining the best, and safest, treatment for animal
specific conditions. However I would never suggest that it be used
alone. I, personally, would never treat any of my animals based upon
information that I find on the internet without first discussing it
with my vet. Neither would I ever expect someone to take advice that I
give, based on my own experiences, and use it without first consulting
with a qualified professional.
It has been my experience that there are some very deadly pieces of
treatment advice sometimes given by well meaning, yet unqualified,
animal owners over the internet. Especially when it comes to non
prescription, over the counter, treatments. Everyone here is well
meaning, and they give advice to others in the hopes that the advice
can help other rat owners provide the best care for their rats.
However, a visit with a qualified medical professional is always the
best route to take in treating your animals, and should never be
replaced by information found over the internet.

> Do you have a source for that, or a reference to something where I could read
> more about lice? I'd like to read something more authoritative than one
> person's opinion on Usenet.

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Tim Newsome - 28 Dec 2006 15:36 GMT

>> Do you have a source for that, or a reference to something where I could
>> read more about lice? I'd like to read something more authoritative than
>> one person's opinion on Usenet.

> My comment isn't based on my opinion. Other than the fact that I
> consider lice to be the lesser of many parasite evils, lice is not
> something I really have an opinion on. The information that I have
> about rat parasites has been given to me in visits that I have had with
> veterinarians.

> Parasites differ from country to country, climate to climate,
> conditions to conditions. Diagnosing which parasite your rats have,

I was under the impression that there are only a few kinds of rat lice, and
that they're all very similar. Thank you for correcting me there.

> If you would like to obtain more reliable and authoritative information
> about rat parasites and safe treatment options, then I would suggest
> that you make an appointment with your veterinarian and discuss it like
> I did, and not rely on finding safe and accurate information on a
> uesnet group at all.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. We have a vet appointment for today,
actually. Fiona needs some tumors removed. :-( I'm definitely going to bring
up the issue of lice and the play area then. (We already have an ivermectin
prescription for this problem, with a slightly different dose for each rat.)

I'm always interested in learning more from different sources, though. That's
why I was asking here as well.

Tim

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Tim Newsome nuisance.at.casualhacker.net http://www.casualhacker.net/

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jakewc2 - 28 Dec 2006 21:58 GMT

> My comment isn't based on my opinion. Other than the fact that I
> consider lice to be the lesser of many parasite evils, lice is not
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>> more about lice? I'd like to read something more authoritative than one
>> person's opinion on Usenet.

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I have to admit, I agree with you to some respects but I have gained some
very useful information about certain rat illnesses and treatments from
newsgroups and various forums. Its not often that you will find an exotic
vet that knows about small animals, and sometimes, you go to a vet and they
can give totally the wrong treatment from lack of education. Personally I
wouldn't dismiss everything as useless, because its not. There are some
people that belong to forums that are far more knowledgeable about their
animals and their needs than a lot of vets.

I know its not a rats story, but I have an experience of my own in the past
week where I had an ill Guinea Pig, I took to the vets, and he went to give
him Penicillin, which having spoken to somebody on a forum that day, I knew
was dangerous to give GP's. If I hadnt questioned the vets as he was about
to give the meds, I would have lost my GP. Suffice to say, I left there and
went elsewhere to get treatment.

Not all vets know what they are doing, especially when it comes to exotic
pets.

www.furrycritters.co.uk
http://community.webshots.com/user/jakewc2

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Vanessa - 29 Dec 2006 04:41 GMT

I think you might have to go back and read my post again.
Not once did I ever suggest that the information that you find on the
internet is 'useless', I actually state the opposite. And neither do I
give the impression that I am dismissing it, because I use that
information all the time. Very rarely will I go into my vet without
some sort of 'new and innovative' treatment option found on the
internet for her to review and provide feedback on.
However, what I do suggest is that the treatment information that you
find is best discussed with a qualified veterinarian, and I say
qualified more than once, before being used on your pet. It is a fact
that some treatment information that has been given over the internet,
when a vet has not been consulted, has turned out to be deadly for the
animal.
Examples come to mind of people killing their rats when administering
Ivermectin horse wormer paste, which is a very commonly suggested
treatment by those who have had a lot of success with it. Another
comes to mind, which was not given to the rat after I contacted the
owner, was the use of Children's Tylenol on a post op rat where the
person giving the advice didn't know if Halothane was used during
surgery. I have even heard of cases where it was suggested that
Metacam be given to rats already on Prednisone. All of those cases are
excellent examples where information given over the internet can prove
to be detrimental and deadly for a rat. Yes, I suppose the person
giving the Metacam/Prednisone information wouldn't have if they knew it
would possibly kill the rat, but since they were not a qualified
professional, they just simply didn't know.
Now I don't want a back and forth about the horse wormer paste thing.
I gave it to my rats several times with absolutely no ill effects
before finding a much safer, and far more affective, alternative in
Revolution. However, it does not remove the risk of using that product
just because it is used hundreds of times without the animal dying.
There are still dangers associated with using it, and it is best if an
alternative can be used that does not pose a risk.

> I have to admit, I agree with you to some respects but I have gained some
> very useful information about certain rat illnesses and treatments from
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> people that belong to forums that are far more knowledgeable about their
> animals and their needs than a lot of vets.

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Tim Newsome - 27 Dec 2006 02:52 GMT

> I know with human head lice it takes 5 days for the buggers to die
> without their host. I'd give it 7 days just in case.

That's good to know. Thanks for the info.

Tim

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Pet Forum / Mammals / Rats / December 2006

lice (again)