 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Pet Forum / Mammals / Rats / November 2007request your input for a marketing idea
as i've said many a time on this forum, i'm a rat breeder. so... i was wondering what you people think about the idea of a breeder hand raising rats from birth until they are old enough to be spayed/neutered, then having the operations done, and then offering already spayed/neutered rats for sale to rat lovers. pros: if any of them died it wouldn't be someone's beloved pet. people would get a rat that for males wouldn't pee as much and for females would have lower cancer rates. of course the rats could also be mixed without constant pregnancies. cons: price, price, price! i would probably have to charge $60-$70. > as i've said many a time on this forum, i'm a rat breeder. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > cons: price, price, price! i would probably have to charge $60-$70. For me, it would be a dream come true. But... it would also depend if you still sold your rats as feeders. I could never support a feeder breeder. I would pay the price you suggested without a doubt with proof of spay or neuter. But I don't think your average "customer" would.  SignatureJoanne The Rat Shack www.jorats.com >> as i've said many a time on this forum, i'm a rat breeder. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > would pay the price you suggested without a doubt with proof of spay or > neuter. But I don't think your average "customer" would. hmmm.... i'll take in into consideration. not much response here so i doubt that it would be a good idea. >>> as i've said many a time on this forum, i'm a rat breeder. >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > hmmm.... i'll take in into consideration. > not much response here so i doubt that it would be a good idea. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> >> hmmm.... i'll take in into consideration. Where are you located? We've got a lot of UK folks here and I think their views on spaying and neutering are not the same as in the US or Canada. I have been called barbaric because I spay all my females for health benefits. But if you are in America or Canada, then I would post this question on a US board like www.goosemoose.com and check their reactions to it. In America and Canada, spaying and neutering rats is something we all wish we could afford. The health benefits hugely outweighs the risks involved that is if you have a rat savvy vet. My vet will spay/neuter rats as young as 3 weeks old but she's an exotic vet and quite experienced at that. SignatureJoanne The Rat Shack www.jorats.com > Where are you located? We've got a lot of UK folks here and I think > their views on spaying and neutering are not the same as in the US or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > My vet will spay/neuter rats as young as 3 weeks old but she's an exotic > vet and quite experienced at that. I'm in the UK and would love to have my young boys neutered. Sadly there is not a vet even remotely close to me with the experience required for this, so with my 3 young boys at an awkward age I am always having to break up scraps. > > not much response here so i doubt that it would be a good idea. > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Joanne > The Rat Shackwww.jorats.com I remember those posts on this group when you were criticised for promoting speying and I really do feel they were unfair. Having had all 6 of my current female rats speyed and seeing how quickly they recovered; and having lost my favorite rat to ovarian cancer I really feel the scare mongering about speying to be irresponsible. But I guess most people are basing their opinions on what they've read rather than speaking from experience. Dewi >> > not much response here so i doubt that it would be a good idea. >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Dewi the rat would gets a little prissy at times. i've had to put up with a load here when i posted that some of my rats end up as feeders. all i can do is give them a good "childhood". what happens after they are sold is none of my business. i'm not as callous as i used to be though. these forums do influence me. i have had rats since i was a little kid and until i found this forum and a couple of others i *honestly* had no idea that there were people out there who loved rats so much. the usual response was that my friends either wanted to kill/scare them (nice friends eh?) or were simply disgusted by them. only my mother , god bless her, cared for them like little poeple. to this day she still likes rats. /end of rant > I remember those posts on this group when you were criticised for > promoting speying and I really do feel they were unfair. Having had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > guess most people are basing their opinions on what they've read > rather than speaking from experience. My impression was that there is a genuine difference in typical health problems experienced by rats either side of the pond, leading to a divergence in opinion on the above. That combined perhaps with fewer accessible rat savvy vets in the UK might explain it. I know our vets aren't comfortable doing prophylactic speys as I talked to them about this. >> I remember those posts on this group when you were criticised for >> promoting speying and I really do feel they were unfair. Having had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > aren't comfortable doing prophylactic speys as I talked to them about > this. Ooh, that reminds me - has anyone here had an appendectomy done on their kids; you know, just in case? I'd be interested to hear anyone's experiences. Also pre-emptive tonsillectomies, adenoid surgery, gall- bladder removal, etc.. Also I'd appreciate any information on whether removing one of your son's testicles could decrease his chances of testicular cancer. Thanks, Rosemary /snip > Ooh, that reminds me - has anyone here had an appendectomy done on their > kids; you know, just in case? I'd be interested to hear anyone's > experiences. Also pre-emptive tonsillectomies, adenoid surgery, gall- > bladder removal, etc.. Also I'd appreciate any information on whether > removing one of your son's testicles could decrease his chances of > testicular cancer. To be fair, there are women who have had prophylactic mastectomies purely as a result of being in high risk groups based on genetic markers & family history. I'd hate to have to make a similar decision for myself. It depends on the risks & one's weighing up of the sizeable stakes involved either way. It's certainly not a clear cut issue in many cases. > Ooh, that reminds me - has anyone here had an appendectomy done on their > kids; you know, just in case? I'd be interested to hear anyone's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Rosemary How many people stick their children in a cage? Clearly pets and human children get treated very differently! Speying pets is common practice and I don't have *any* moral issues with it. Furthermore, preventing unwanted litters and modifying the character of the pet is not the only reason for speying. The anti-spey aguements I've heard are about speys being dangerous or cruel for rats and that there isn't enough evidece that it prevents mammary tumours. However, there are other health benefits for getting rats speyed. Futhermore, I absolutely do not think speying rats is cruel or excessively risky. Of course you want to take them to a rat savvy vet, but that goes without saying. My opinions are based on my experience. I've had 6 rats speyed and all were back to their active selves within 12 to 48 hours (depending on their age) and all received pain releif post surgery. Of my rats (past and present): 1 died from ovarian cancer. 1 had a cyst in her uterus which was discovered when she got speyed. 1 had an infection in her uterus that resulted in heavy bleeding. She got speyed and the bleeding stopped immediately. 2 rats died from some illness that the vet couldn't identify. My 4 other females were speyed young and so far no health probs, but they are all under the age of 2y. >From this I've realised that mammary tumours are not the only reproductive health problems that impact female rats. Another thing, I think it's unfair (at the very least) for people to pick on other people who are pro-speying, as happened with Joanne. Dewi >>> I remember those posts on this group when you were criticised for >>> promoting speying and I really do feel they were unfair. Having had [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Rosemary Yes it's so cruel but yet, my rats live beyond 2 years, I've got 7 that are over 30 months old, my Bijou lived to 41 months and my current Loki spayed female is 3.5 years old. No tumours on any of my rats that have been spayed so far. During a few of the spays, my vet has told me a few were starting uterine cancer, which is a very painful way to die. My mother in law just went through a hysterectomy because the doctors feared she may be starting uterine cancer. My oldest son has had adenoid surgery to try and treat his asthma, he also needed tubes put in his ears to allow him to hear better, he also had a double hernia when he was born and corrected. And it is PROVEN that castration does help with rapist to control their urges. In fact some pedophiles actually request castration. Also, comparing rats to humans... not very realistic. SignatureJoanne The Rat Shack www.jorats.com <snip all> In response to all those responses, I posted this to remind people that there are still posters out here who don't believe in prophylactic spaying of rats, seeing as all the recent posts have been either condoning or not challenging the practice. Just reminding you all that people with my point of view do exist, in case there are any other posters out there who think like I do but are loath to say so for whatever reason. It was meant to be slightly facetious. BTW, Dewi, people do stick their children in cages, quite frequently - cots, playpens, etc. . I've seen babies that get far less out-time than my rats. I just think there needs to be some hard evidence, not just anecdotal, before any operation is carried out. Rosemary It's obviously fine for others to have their own opinions. But the facetious comments were not necessary or constructive. Dewi > It's obviously fine for others to have their own opinions. But the > facetious comments were not necessary or constructive. And your lack of a sense of humour is neither intelligent nor welcome. Now FO or stop making comments about how people were "unfair" just because you happened not to agree with them. Rosemary >> It's obviously fine for others to have their own opinions. But the >> facetious comments were not necessary or constructive. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Rosemary Wow, your true colours are coming through or is this the boyfriend replying? Your comments are not constructive, in fact, you just made yourself look like a fool which then will make others think that we may be the ones that are right. A civilized debate is healthy but your dry humour is ridiculous. SignatureJoanne The Rat Shack www.jorats.com > > It's obviously fine for others to have their own opinions. But the > > facetious comments were not necessary or constructive. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Rosemary Here we go, over the top and melodramatic again. Seriously, your previous post didn't come across as humorous in the slightest. The unfairness was related to the immaturity and rudeness of a couple of those responses. The majority were rational and non-aggressive, and I had no problem with those. Even though I don't share the same opinion as you I have enough self control to not carry on like a child. Enough said. I shall no longer bother reading your posts. Dewi heh heh it's getting a little catty in here! sorry, i had to say it. > I just think there needs to be some hard evidence, not just anecdotal, > before any operation is carried out. > > Rosemary Are you illiterate? I've written several times of my facts with having over 60 females spayed and only 4 of them have a tumour recur. Our rats are not just from my area, they are from all over and all rescues at that, meaning no breeder rats and not the best of genetics. In the past 80% of our females developed tumours but since spaying they don't. What is it from those facts you just can't grasp? You will be tickled pink to know that since my hard evidence, my very experienced, exotic vet will now be insisting on spays when doing tumour removal on all female rats. Her international colleagues are also in agreement with her that spaying does indeed offer a huge health benefit to females, this is in the exotic vet community. It's too bad not all vets research and register to the exotic registry where all the information is available. *tsk tsk* Joanne Change is constant, good, inevitable. The Rat Shack www.jorats.com > Are you illiterate? Why yes, I'm utterly illiterate. In fact, I'm dictating this to my 24-hour employed scribe. Rosemary >> Are you illiterate? > > Why yes, I'm utterly illiterate. In fact, I'm dictating this to my 24-hour > employed scribe. > > Rosemary Just a reminder, not aimed at anyone or two in particular (honest), that /all/ the regular posters are in this group as they care about their rats :-) >> Are you illiterate? > > Why yes, I'm utterly illiterate. In fact, I'm dictating this to my 24-hour > employed scribe. > > Rosemary lol... that was good. Ok, I apologize. ;) SignatureJoanne The Rat Shack www.jorats.com >>> Are you illiterate? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lol... that was good. > Ok, I apologize. ;) Actually, I hate arguing - I apologise too, I get really unreasonable when I post tired. Rosemary >> I just think there needs to be some hard evidence, not just anecdotal, >> before any operation is carried out. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 80% of our females developed tumours but since spaying they don't. What > is it from those facts you just can't grasp? Hard evidence.. how about some scientific studies to back up what Joanne is saying? http://www.ratbehavior.org/TumorSpaying.htm Have a read of that. (I don't think anyone has posted that link yet..) :) And if they have and I missed it.. oops :) Zoe >>> I just think there needs to be some hard evidence, not just >>> anecdotal, before any operation is carried out. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > And if they have and I missed it.. oops :) Thanks. I've never seen that page before, so I'm pretty sure it's not been posted here recently. Very interesting reading. Much appreciated. I would really like to see any UK studies, if they exist; likewise, survival rates for spays, though I appreciate this depends greatly on vet expertise. ) > Thanks. I've never seen that page before, so I'm pretty sure it's not > been posted here recently. Very interesting reading. Much appreciated. > > I would really like to see any UK studies, if they exist; likewise, > survival rates for spays, though I appreciate this depends greatly on > vet expertise. hrmm.. I am not aware of any studies on survival rates for spays. I suspect the best you will get is anecdotal. I have had 2 female rats spayed at about 2 years of age, and the night after the operation, they were bouncing the cage like nothing happened to them. I was told to 'keep them quiet'. Easier said than done :) The ability of the vet would absolutely affect the outcome of spays. The vet who did my two girls is someone I consider to be one of the best rat vets in Brisbane (Qld, Australia). Saying that, I do know of 1 or 2 rats who have died after being spayed. But nothing is 100% safe. Seemingly healthy humans sometimes die as well during 'routine' operations. Zoe :) I live in Brisbane too. I've had 6 rats speyed and they all recovered quickly as well. I think finding a good vet is the key and fortunately there are a number of good rat vets in Brisbane. Dewi >>> I just think there needs to be some hard evidence, not just >>> anecdotal, before any operation is carried out. <snip> > Hard evidence.. how about some scientific studies to back up what > Joanne is saying? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Have a read of that. > (I don't think anyone has posted that link yet..) :) I haven't seen the link before - thanks for posting it; I found it interesting. Unfortunately, from what I read on the site, there don't seem to have been any scientific studies to investigate the incidence of tumours in spayed rats compared to unspayed rats and what effects it has on average lifespan (I suspect that even a small number of deaths from the spaying procedure might dramatically bring down the average lifespan of spayed rats, but that isn't necessarily the best way to look at the data from our point of view - perhaps a better approach would be to give the average lifespan of the unspayed rat (which should be given appropriate surgical and medical treatment to make the information obtained relevant to pet rats), the average lifespan of the spayed rat, and the percentage that die from the spaying procedure - although of course this will vary from vet to vet). It would be really nice to have the information, but without it the discussion can be at best speculative. It seems we'll all just have to go with what each of us individually think is best, and at least our rats will still be doing better than the average Ratatouille-driven impulse purchase victim. The film was damn good, though. Nothing like a full-on digital projector in a cinema with great surround sound. I don't know if I'll ever be able to go back to watching film-projected - er - films in the cinema. Rosemary >> I just think there needs to be some hard evidence, not just anecdotal, >> before any operation is carried out. Rosemary [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > meaning no breeder rats and not the best of genetics. In the past 80% of > our females developed tumours but since spaying they don't. joanne, you truly seem to know rats and rat behavior. i would tend to take your word regarding this informal "study". you'd be a good candidate for doing real, documented scientific studies on rat behavior. >>> I remember those posts on this group when you were criticised for >>> promoting speying and I really do feel they were unfair. Having had [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Rosemary lol, i take it that you don't agree with the idea of having a rat fixed? do you feel the same way for all animals? >>>> I remember those posts on this group when you were criticised for >>>> promoting speying and I really do feel they were unfair. Having had [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > lol, i take it that you don't agree with the idea of having a rat > fixed? do you feel the same way for all animals? I don't have a problem with having an animal neutered, as long as it's for a good, evidence-backed reason. For example, it's pretty daft not to spay a cat if you're going to let it out to roam, unless you want your pet to come back pregnant with street-kittens, and if you have animals that are so aggressive it's making their lives less pleasant, or if the animals would be happier living with a member of another sex, I think it's fine. It's just that nobody here has ever been able to give me a link to a proper controlled scientific study that shows spaying young and pre-emptively is beneficial in terms of female rats' problems, and since there are differing viewpoints on the matter, I think it's probably safest not to have them undergo surgery they don't absolutely need. What made me want to post what I did was Dewi's comment - "I remember those posts on this group when you were criticised for promoting speying and I really do feel they were unfair." I thought it was actually asking for an argument, phrasing it like that, as if members of the group had attacked her for her point of view. That wasn't the case; there was a perfectly normal, civilised argument with points made by both sides, and to characterise that as people being "unfair" was, I felt, something that needed a response, and I thought in the circumstances my post was farly light and jokey, and not at all nasty. It made me giggle a bit, what a vitriolic response I got to my post, when all I was doing was light-heartedly making a point in a fairly innocuous manner, to balance out the thread a bit in terms of viewpoints on the matter. In terms of your business idea, I can see the merits of the approach, the main one being that it would be possible for people to keep rats of both sexes together, which for one thing would make for a different environment, wth possibly some different behaviour showing up. I wouldn't buy one myself, because I don't believe it's necessary for their health and I don't want to keep rats of both sexes together, but it could work for you, if you can persuade people that they are worth the money compared to a £10 pet-shop rat. Rosemary >>>>> I remember those posts on this group when you were criticised for >>>>> promoting speying and I really do feel they were unfair. Having had [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Rosemary a thoughtful answer rosemary. i have not read scientific evidence of lower tumor rates in female rats becuase of speying either. it has always been second hand information. for my own pet rats, i have my males neutered so that they won't pee as much and so that they can mix with the females. i have only had one female done, for a customer. > as i've said many a time on this forum, i'm a rat breeder. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > cons: price, price, price! i would probably have to charge $60-$70. You could always start a list of pre-orders. I don't think the price is expensive at all , considering the price of having the op done and the aftercare needed. > as i've said many a time on this forum, i'm a rat breeder. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > cons: price, price, price! i would probably have to charge $60-$70. It's definitely a more responsible way to sell rats. There would be a market for it, but you may need to advertise why speyed rats are better. Basically speyed rats = healthier rats and of course, no babies. The price isn't too bad, lots of people could afford that. Also people who don't have access to good rat vets, may prefer to have their rats speyed before they get them. I have to admit though, I cringe at the idea of breeding rats (and cats, dogs, rabbits etc.), which is why I didn't respond initially. Dewi I like the idea. I would be happy to pay that amount for spayed females. Not sure about neutered males though; I haven't experienced any problems with marking or aggression in my two boys. Laurie > as i've said many a time on this forum, i'm a rat breeder. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > cons: price, price, price! i would probably have to charge $60-$70. I would totally spend that much, but im in the US. I agree with the pre- order option. I mean, give them the choice. If you were here I'd totally do it. thanks for the input. i talked to some guys today about getting it going. we'll see if anything comes from it or if it's all talk. >I would totally spend that much, but im in the US. I agree with the pre- > order option. I mean, give them the choice. If you were here I'd totally > do > it. >I like the idea. I would be happy to pay that amount for spayed females. > Not sure about neutered males though; I haven't experienced any problems > with marking or aggression in my two boys. > > Laurie thanks for your input. you're lucky that you haven't had problems with "marking". as interesting as her web page is, it disgusts me when i hear the dapper rat lady talking about how cute it is when her rats pee in her shirt. >> as i've said many a time on this forum, i'm a rat breeder. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> cons: price, price, price! i would probably have to charge $60-$70. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.