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Pet Forum / Mammals / Rats / November 2007euthanasia
Hi. So my old girl Chewie is doing poorly and the time has come. I've read that the ideal euthanasia for rats is gas anesthetic before a fatal injection. Unfortunately, my vet does not do gas for anesthesia. She does injection in the rear leg for anesthesia. We have had rat surgeries on 5 of the rats with this anesthesia and it has worked well. I live in rural North Dakota in the US so finding a vet that can do gas is proving to be difficult if not impossible. A very good vet in Minneapolis who we use for a resource does gas anesthetic until the animal is completely unconscious and then gives a cardiac injection. He says it is fast and absolutely painless because the animal is asleep. So my question... since I can't find a vet to do gas anesthesia, is it acceptable to do injectable anesthesia? The American Vet Medical Assoc. put out a study on acceptable and unacceptable methods of euthanasia. It says that if an animal is unconscious, it cannot feel pain and therefore the method of euthanasia is less critical. I really need for this to be okay. What do you guys think? Thanks, Marlo Quite a few people do get their rats euthanased without the initial anaesthetic gas and it does not have to be a painful experience. I have had one rat injected without being sedated before hand, and it seemed okay. She squeaked once, when the vet put in the needle, but not when he was pushing the plunger. But I would suggest that the injection should *never* go into the heart, kidneys or other major organ, as I imagine that this would be painful. The vets I've used have always injected into the abdominal area, taking care to avoid the stomach etc. I'd suspect that injecting into the leg muscle would hurt, mainly because most intramuscular injections sting. If you do not have the option of the anaesthetic gas, ask about the injection going into the abdominal area, taking care to avoid the major organs. Debbie Ducommun, in her Rat Health Care Guide (which I have a copy of) suggests initially using diazepam, unless the rat is in respiratory distress. This is given orally or by subcutaneous injection to sedate the rat. She then suggests the sodium pentobarbital to be given in an intraperitoneal injection and to use a finer needle (27 to 29 gauge). Perhaps you could discuss this option with the vet. I hope Chewie is going well, and that she passes away peacefully when her time comes. Dewi > Hi. So my old girl Chewie is doing poorly and the time has come. I've > read that the ideal euthanasia for rats is gas anesthetic before a fatal [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Thanks, > Marlo The injection in the rear leg is an acceptable form of anesthesia before the fatal injection.  SignatureJoanne The Rat Shack www.jorats.com Have you seen it being done and do you know what they use? I've been asking the vet to inititally anaesthetise the rats and mice I've had with the gas. The vets I have near me won't let me in with them when they do the gas bit which I don't like. If there's a better alternative it would be good to know about it. Dewi > Have you seen it being done and do you know what they use? I've been > asking the vet to inititally anaesthetise the rats and mice I've had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Dewi My vet gave me the choice to be in with Art. He didn't struggle with the gas (a huge relief) then I hugged him while he was given the injections (it took two as the 1st one had no effect) It was very peacful though. It is very upsetting but I wasn't there for me, maybe that's why your vet won't let you in, to spare you the upset ? They say it's because of occupational health & safety reasons as the anaesthetic gas leaks out and they don't want the customers being affected by it. I personally think they are worried that someone will pass out from the gas and they could get sued or complaints. I do get to be with them when they give the final injection. There are other vets that will let the owners go in for the whole thing, but they are an hours drive away and it's not worth stressing an ill rat out with all that travelling. It's good that Art didn't struggle. The vets tell me my rats and mice haven't struggled, but I never 100% trust them. Dewi > They say it's because of occupational health & safety reasons as the > anaesthetic gas leaks out and they don't want the customers being [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dewi What gas do they use? Isoflurane? When my vet put one of my rats down through gas, I was there with him until he passed away. The reason why the gas is so effective for small animal anesthesia is that very little (I seem to recall the vet saying about 4%) is absorbed via the lungs. Which means when the gas is turned off, the animal comes around pretty quickly. (That conversation was a few years ago, so I hope I've managed to recall it fairly accurately). But it also means that it is fairly safe for you to be present while they gas them.. Though I suppose they have other reasons to prefer you not to be there. Zoe :) > > They say it's because of occupational health & safety reasons as the > > anaesthetic gas leaks out and they don't want the customers being [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Zoe :) I'm not certain what the gas is. The vet told me that they do come out of it quickle, but they usually rush the rat into the consult room to give the final injection. It's just been the policy of the vets clinics that are near me. I'm going to look into alternatives like using an injectable sedative and I'll discuss this with a vet the next time I have to have a little critter PTS :( Dewi On the few occasions when I did ask for gas first the vet would soak some cotton balls in the gas and put them in a container and pop my Rattie boy in as well. Regards Kate > They say it's because of occupational health & safety reasons as the > anaesthetic gas leaks out and they don't want the customers being [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dewi Signaturehttp://community.webshots.com/user/ollieogg > Have you seen it being done and do you know what they use? I've been > asking the vet to inititally anaesthetise the rats and mice I've had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Dewi I'm going by what a vet tech has posted on my site. We had this exact discussion. SignatureJoanne The Rat Shack www.jorats.com > I'm going by what a vet tech has posted on my site. We had this exact > discussion. > > -- > Joanne > The Rat Shackwww.jorats.com I'll take a look at this discussion on your site. I have more time now so can take a good look at your site and also introduce myself. I'll try to do this over the next week. Dewi. > Hi. So my old girl Chewie is doing poorly and the time has come. I've > read that the ideal euthanasia for rats is gas anesthetic before a fatal [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Thanks, > Marlo One Vet I use doesn't use gas either. She gives an injection that knocks them out and then gives the final shot. I find this way, less stressful as I have found my Rats struggle with the gas and I, in turn get upset. Regards Kate Signaturehttp://community.webshots.com/user/ollieogg I'm taking Chewie to the vet today for a fluid injection. We're going to try that and see if she perks up. I fear we may be desperately holding onto hope. You can't reverse the aging process. But when we moved her into her own, smaller cage a couple days ago, she ate and drank and seemed better for a bit. She is not eating and drinking very much now and is getting around very slowly and low to the ground. She still makes "happy rat" bruxing. She does not seem to be wheezing, sneezing or struggling with breathing. I give her wipe-down baths. She has red discharge from her nose but she's still trying to groom herself. On the subject of euthanasia, I think that anesthesia with a shot in the leg until she is totally under followed by a cardiac stick is humane. She will be completely unconscious and not feel anything, just like she wouldn't feel surgery. This sucks. I have five more rats and I can't imagine going through this five more times. How can we stand it????? They have such short little lives. Thank you everyone for your input. -Marlo >> Hi. So my old girl Chewie is doing poorly and the time has come. I've >> read that the ideal euthanasia for rats is gas anesthetic before a [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Regards Kate After fluids today, she's just not doing so hot tonight. Lethargic, grunting when she breathes, although the vet said it didn't sound like she had fluid in her lungs. I think this is a losing battle. When I was at the vet, though, I found out that they can do gas anesthesia. So, what do you all think is better before the fatal injection: gas anesthesia or injected anesthesia? For the gas, she'll have to put Chewie in a container. God, this sucks. I'm really glad we have this forum to go to. Thanks for listening and providing your input. -Marlo > I'm taking Chewie to the vet today for a fluid injection. We're going to > try that and see if she perks up. I fear we may be desperately holding [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> Regards Kate >After fluids today, she's just not doing so hot tonight. Lethargic, >grunting when she breathes, although the vet said it didn't sound like [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >anesthesia or injected anesthesia? For the gas, she'll have to put >Chewie in a container. God, this sucks. Injectable is perfectly fine; it's just a little stick. As long as the rat's unconscious for the main injection it doesn't really matter how she gets there. A quick little poke with you standing there for comfort will probably bother her less than gas in a weird enclosed space. --Theresa http://tiger_spot.mapache.org >> After fluids today, she's just not doing so hot tonight. Lethargic, >> grunting when she breathes, although the vet said it didn't sound like [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://tiger_spot.mapache.org I totally agree :)) Regards Kate Signaturehttp://community.webshots.com/user/ollieogg The saga of Chewie continues. In our small town, I am on the radio in the morning. My co-host and I talk about my rats frequently. He gives me crap and I defend rats as pets and advocate for them. So I was talking about Chewie this morning, and a cooky lady in our community is trying to sell me a bottle of "Forever Green," an "all natural product that cures cancer, produces weight loss if needed" and all other kinds of miraculous things. I think I'll buy a bottle just to shut her up. But I do think it's time to let Chewser rest. I just wish my vet wasn't 50 miles away. Chewie is not doing any better this morning and she's making a kind of grunting sound when she breathes. The Chewie I knew is gone. Thank you for your input in the method of anesthesia. I think injectable is better so we can avoid the time cooped up in a container. Then I can hold her until she falls asleep, and I can touch the corner of her eye to make sure she doesn't blink at all, which will indicate that she is totally unconscious. Ugh. >>> After fluids today, she's just not doing so hot tonight. Lethargic, >>> grunting when she breathes, although the vet said it didn't sound [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Regards Kate I took her to the vet today. We did injectable anesthesia and I snuggled her until she was totally unconscious. I checked by touching her eyes and she did not blink. Then the vet gave her an injection in her heart. She did a little twitching which is reflex. Her heart slowed but didn't stop so the vet had to do another injection. No pain. Then she was gone. It's a 50 mile drive to the vet. I cried half the way down, the whole 45 minutes I was there and most of the way back. I have the worst cry headache tonight. I hate those. My husband said we only have to get our hearts broke five more times. I can't believe how much we love our little ratties and how painful it is when they die. We're trying to decide if we want to integrate the two cages. We have two girls, Buttons and Darla, that lived with Chewie. The other cage is one girl, Chuckles, and two boys, Buster and Tonka. Everyone is fixed except Chuckles. At the same time, I want to get more rats! It's like an addiction. I want to give a good life to two more rats. But then that will mean seven more episodes of tremendous heartbreak. This is so hard. Well, thanks for being here in this forum. It's nice to have people who understand. -Marlo > The saga of Chewie continues. In our small town, I am on the radio in > the morning. My co-host and I talk about my rats frequently. He gives me [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >> >> Regards Kate >I took her to the vet today. We did injectable anesthesia and I snuggled >her until she was totally unconscious. I checked by touching her eyes and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -Marlo I'm so sorry Marlo. It really does hurt. Chewie isn't hurting now and you can take comfort in the fact you helped her pass peacfully. > I took her to the vet today. We did injectable anesthesia and I snuggled > her until she was totally unconscious. I checked by touching her eyes [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -Marlo I'm so sorry for your loss. I recommend integrating your colonies, I have noticed that rats do so well in big group, not to mention easier on mom and dad. ;) As far as getting new rats... well, nothing heals the heart faster than a new rat to love. SignatureJoanne The Rat Shack www.jorats.com >I took her to the vet today. We did injectable anesthesia and I snuggled >her until she was totally unconscious. I checked by touching her eyes and [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -Marlo I'm so sorry to hear of your loss of Chewie. Take care, and big {{hugs}}. Tracey I'm so sorry about Chewie! I know what you mean about wanting to have rats, but being apprehensive about the inevitable heartache. As long as you are able to provide an excellent home for some rats, than why not continue to adopt them? I think you will know when you've had enough. You'll probably no longer feel that need to get more rats. At least the ages of your rats are staggered so that you can get a break from the sadness of losing them. Currently 9 of my rats the same age, so I'm not looking forward to when they get old... only 2 years from now! Hugs, Dewi |
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