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Pet Forum / Mammals / Rats / June 2004porphyrin in urine?
We took "Bong" to the vet today - well, rushed her there, actually. She was producing red/brown coloured urine. The Vet ran several tests. These show that there is protein in her urine, but no blood (thank goodness). She says that (since the urine is quite dilute) kidney function is good. When put in a centrifuge, the colour did not separate out. The only other thing we can put it down to is porphyrin, but we have never come across it before except from face and fur. Has anyone observed this happening in rats before? They are all on the same food as usual, and no red coloured foods have been given (no beetroot or similar).  SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one > We took "Bong" to the vet today - well, rushed her there, actually. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > They are all on the same food as usual, and no red coloured foods have been > given (no beetroot or similar). I never heard of porphyrin in the urine but I have heard of mycoplasmosis in genitals. I would definitely get her on antibiotics whatever may be the case... uterine cancer? uterine infection? bladder infection? SignatureJoanne Mom to 12 rats http://community.webshots.com/user/joanneb70 j-s.b@nospamsympatico.ca remove "no spam" >> We took "Bong" to the vet today - well, rushed her there, actually. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > whatever may be the case... uterine cancer? uterine infection? bladder > infection? That's what I wondered. The Vet checked the urine again after all the obvious tests for blood etc... and there's no sign of infection. My first thought before we saw the vet was cancer, too: But that would had provided some cells in the urine which would have seperated out in the centrfuge. Now I'm awake, I'm going to do some research on the internet. We'll check her again today, to see if there's any change. SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one >>> We took "Bong" to the vet today - well, rushed her there, actually. >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Now I'm awake, I'm going to do some research on the internet. We'll > check her again today, to see if there's any change. I've just found this on the internet... http://www.2ndchance.info/ratkidney.htm It seems that rats in early stages of kidney disease will drink more water. I guess this dilutes the urine, and could make kidney function appear normal due to the weakness of the resulting urine. I think we might be getting Bong weighed, and doing something to measure water consumption (doing this without causing stress is going to be interesting). It's back to the vets then, I guess. SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one > I've just found this on the internet... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > water consumption (doing this without causing stress is going to be > interesting). It's back to the vets then, I guess. Kidney disease is fairly common in elderly rats. It's easier than you think to get a urine sample, which is the way the vet will probably want to test for kidney function. Rats usually want to pee when they wake up (as we do!) so wake your little one up from a deep sleep, then pop him into a small, clean plastic tank (one of those little carriers like mini aquariums is ideal... no bedding). Rattie should oblige, then just tip the liquid into a sterile sample bottle (vet can provide, also any pharmacy). If your vet does suspect kidneys, ask about a new-ish drug called Ipaktine. It works wonders on rats with kidney trouble... no personal experience but I have details from someone who is using it under her vet's supervision, and she will even give you her vet's contact details of your vet wants to discuss it. (Yes, I am in the UK! and so is she... Essex, I think). Sue ---------------------------- pendragon fancy rats Portsmouth, England, UK www.pendragonrats.co.uk First established 1981 >> I've just found this on the internet... >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > www.pendragonrats.co.uk > First established 1981 Thanks for the drug information. The problem with the pee-in-a-tank approach is the risk of contamination from the rat's paws and tail. A few dead skin cells, for example, would be enough to trigger a false positive for protein, and a small amount of excrement anywhere on the paws could trigger a false result for guts- mangled-badly-syndrome. We're going to go with the pee-into-a-cup approach I think. Thanks very much for the idea of waking her from a sleep: She won't be too chuffed, but it'll make our lives easier! SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one > > We took "Bong" to the vet today - well, rushed her there, actually. > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > j-s.b@nospamsympatico.ca > remove "no spam" I've never heard of this before. The only case I've experienced personally with red/brown urine is when I had a male rat with cystitis - I think in this case the colouring was due to blood, but then I may be wrong. I've just done a quick search on Google for porphyrin in urine, and the main info it brings up is about tests done on lab rats with toxic metals such as mercury and arsenic - toxic chemicals cause porphyrin excretion in the urine. One of the many articles can be found here: http://bvs.insp.mx/componen/svirtual/ppriori/nbibliodet.asp?idb=6689 So porphyrin can be found in urine. Tracey >> > We took "Bong" to the vet today - well, rushed her there, actually. >> > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Tracey Well, it does seem to be the case, but the article seems to suggest that it's from mercury exposure (and other heavy metals?). On the topic of cystitis, this would seem a likely candidate. However, the vet has checked the urine for signs of infection, and found none. I would be very reluctant to give Bong unneccessary antibiotics if there is a chance of kidney disease, since a lot of drugs (antibiotics are no exception, I believe) get metabolised and processed through the kidneys: adding extra strain to a limited filtering capacity. The current action plan is this. We saw the vet today, to drop off a printout of the information from the internet (as per the link I posted earlier), and to collect a vial for a urine sample. We have a spreadsheet on the go which will allow us to estimate Bong's consumption of water in relation to the other rats. We are also keeping a note of her weight. After a few days, we will take her back to the vet with the sample if her water consumption is elevated and/or weight is being lost. If neither of these has occured, then we're back to the drawing board. Given that kidney disease seems to be the third most common serious illness in rats (after tumours and respiratory disease) and the seriousness of such a disease, I believe this is probably the correct cause of action, especially since an infection has been virtually eliminated. SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one > >> > We took "Bong" to the vet today - well, rushed her there, actually. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > cause of action, especially since an infection has been virtually > eliminated. Please keep us posted Dave... SignatureJoanne Mom to 12 rats http://community.webshots.com/user/joanneb70 j-s.b@nospamsympatico.ca remove "no spam" >> >> > We took "Bong" to the vet today - well, rushed her there, >> >> > actually. [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] >> > Please keep us posted Dave... Will do. SignatureRegards, Dave, Rosemary and Bong dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one > > I've never heard of this before. The only case I've experienced > > personally with red/brown urine is when I had a male rat with cystitis [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > http://welcome.to/daves.website > http://travel.to/formula.one Yes, the only reference to porphyrin in urine I could find doing a search was regards poisoning due to toxic metals. Keep us informed with how Bong is doing and let us know what the vet says after your next visit. Tracey >> > I've never heard of this before. The only case I've experienced >> > personally with red/brown urine is when I had a male rat with [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Tracey Will do. ATM, we have a cunning plan to measure water consumption. Problem is that the water bottles in the two cages seem to drip at quite different rates, so getting good figures is proving difficult. I've swapped the bottles to try and allow for that, so I'll see what todays measurements show. Thanks for your concern. SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one You could put a wee dish under the dripping bottle..? They are a pain when they do that. I am always scared that one will run out while I am out for the day so I have bottles all over the place..LOL. Hope all goes well with Bong, it is worrisome when they have something wrong but you can;t put your finger on what it is. Regards Kate > >> > I've never heard of this before. The only case I've experienced > >> > personally with red/brown urine is when I had a male rat with [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Thanks for your concern. > You could put a wee dish under the dripping bottle..? They are a pain > when they do that. I am always scared that one will run out while I [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] >> >> Thanks for your concern. I have already! Thanks SignatureRegards, Dave dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com http://welcome.to/daves.website http://travel.to/formula.one |
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