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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Marine Reef / May 2004Wet/Dry advice needed
How D, I have a 75 gal. With about 50+lbs live rock, Plenum, and about 75lbs of live sand. I have a Red Sea Prizm Protein Skimmer and a wet/dry filter. My levels seem to be fine but skunk cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs keep dying. Snails, soft corrals, and fish are fine. The wet/dry is empty and it used mostly for aeration and water movement. This tank has been up for about 7 mos. My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem? forget the blue balls. or any other color what is your water? copper will kill inverts, many other nasty's are in our tap water. give us some info and maybe we can offer advice... Steve > How D, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use > something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem? > forget the blue balls. or any other color > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use >>something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem? I had the water (from the tank) tested for copper and that ain't it. David, Before the folks in this group will try to help you, you need to show that you have the initiative to care for a tank. If you are experiencing a dye-off, then everyone would assume that you have done a round of water tests. They want the readings. What's the temp, specific G, where does your top-off water come from.. etc... No one will reply to "My water is good..." CW > > forget the blue balls. or any other color > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > I had the water (from the tank) tested for copper and that ain't it. Example of my last test, measured after I topped off with 1 liter R.O. to the "full mark" on the tank Size 55 gal plus about 10 gal in sump 3 inch DSB. 7- pounds rock. 4 JBJ 55W ( 2-10kk, 2-actinic) with 1 Sailfin tang... misc. critters are doing well, No outbreaks of illness, or weird algae's, blah... blah... Salinity 1.024 Temp 79 F (varies from 78F to 82F with room temp and lights being on/off) pH 8.3 ( stable within 0.1 for over 5 years) Amm. 0.0 Nitrite 0.0 Nitrate less than 0.03 Phos, 0.1 Copper 0.0 This listing will tell you this an established tank, and not only that I THINK its ok, but you have the data to show what is going on. Steve > Before the folks in this group will try to help you, you need to show that > you have the initiative to care for a tank. If you are experiencing a > dye-off, then everyone would assume that you have done a round of water > tests. They want the readings. What's the temp, specific G, where does your > top-off water come from.. etc... No one will reply to "My water is good..." 7- should have read 75 pounds.. Steve | My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use | something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem? I've learned that true w\d filters are a no-no in marine tanks...the nitrates they kick out are poisonous to the fish, which are much more sensitive to nitrates than fw fish. Actually, fish tolerate high nitrates, but invertebrates won't. Marc > I've learned that true w\d filters are a no-no in marine tanks...the > nitrates they kick out are poisonous to the fish, which are much more > sensitive to nitrates than fw fish. -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com > Actually, fish tolerate high nitrates, but invertebrates won't. to add to that SW fish will tolerate much higher levels than most any FW fish  SignatureRichard Reynolds Richard.Reynolds@usa.net | to add to that SW fish will tolerate much higher levels than most any FW fish That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research pages.... I inherited a tank with nitrates above 200ppm, and the tangs and blue angel were quite active and unaffected. The coral beauty looked bad though. However, corals and various crawling livestock, as well as anemones, would suffer and die premature deaths. Marc > | to add to that SW fish will tolerate much higher levels than most > any FW fish > > That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research > pages.... -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com > | to add to that SW fish will tolerate much higher levels than most > any FW fish > > That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research > pages.... BTW, where did you learn or get those info.? I just curious, Dinky. Some fish will tolerate more than other. CapFusion,... | > That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research | > pages.... | | BTW, where did you learn or get those info.? I just curious, Dinky. | Some fish will tolerate more than other. Here, mostly. It's possible I've been misunderstanding pretty much everything since the git-go...I'll go crawl into a corner with some docs and shut up...... > Here, mostly. It's possible I've been misunderstanding pretty much > everything since the git-go...I'll go crawl into a corner with some > docs and shut up...... ive been kinda on lurk mode for a while, too busy breeding fish. But ive been reading almost every post, that gets to my server. I would hope that if someone had said nitrates were bad for *FISH* ida hoped in on that. however just because fish are ok with nitrates does not mean a reef tank is ok with nitrates, its also possible to have a FO with to high a nitrate level and not have it harmful for the fish. most people dont want an algae infested cess pool for a tank just because it wont hurt the fish, even as much as an algae infested cess pool can be benifitial to fish, most people still dont want one. nitrates are the fastest algae/cyno fuel to remove, and the easiest to control and measure. SignatureRichard Reynolds Richard.Reynolds@usa.net > ive been kinda on lurk mode for a while, too busy breeding fish. But ive been reading > almost every post, that gets to my server. I would hope that if someone had said nitrates [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > infested cess pool can be benifitial to fish, most people still dont want one. nitrates > are the fastest algae/cyno fuel to remove, and the easiest to control and measure. If you want *me* to say it.... I will say it. Nitrate is bad for fish. Are you happy now, Richard? Fish can telorate nitrate [high/medium/low] and seem to be active, but it not really good. It just like breathing in second-hand smoke or living in a smog city. If the fish immune system can handle it, it just fine but if not, the fish will somewhat moving about. Probably a sign of stress. CapFusion,... > Here, mostly. It's possible I've been misunderstanding pretty much > everything since the git-go...I'll go crawl into a corner with some > docs and shut up...... Heehe.... First and foremost.... Nitrate is BAD. No doubt about that. If the tank are mainly have fish, minium or low nitrate can be telorable. But do expect algae growth. Nitrate is one of the basic food source for algae. If you have invert or anmone, you might need to fix your nitrate proble from it source. CapFusion,... > That's contrary to what I've learned. Dammit back to the research > pages.... like everything there are always exceptions the big one I know about are sharks and rays but even then 100ppm isnt a big deal considering thats probibly the most extreme case and the comparison was made against FW there are some FW fish that wont tolerate nitrates in the 50's without doing all your research for you, some larger fish(think tuna) have stunted growth due to nitrates most smaller fish will be un-effected by nitrate levels well above 1500ppm there are a few inverts which will handle nitrates that high, but most significant intentionally kept ones wont, two that come to mind *very* quickly are brine shrimp, however they also tolerate about 100ppm ammonia and choc chip stars seem uneffected by 400ppm+ but probibly require *very slow aclimation* I have 20ish(number decreases every 2 weeks as they are feeders) in a 15gallon pond thing, they were added when nitrates were very low, and lack of waterchanges and constant feeding has got nitrates above 400 they all are active and growing, ready to become food, starfish vs. nitrates is well documented you can look around(search for the smaller brittle stars). there are even some anemone's that will handle high nitrates but again not desired ones (think aptasia) SignatureRichard Reynolds Richard.Reynolds@usa.net > Actually, fish tolerate high nitrates, but invertebrates won't. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > nitrates they kick out are poisonous to the fish, which are much more > > sensitive to nitrates than fw fish. I have a wet/dry but only for skimmer and heater purposes. I have no bio balls in there at all. I have another 20 gallon that I use as a refugium. Works very well and keeps A/N/N at 0. The macro grows like crazy!! Perfect! Marc > I have a wet/dry but only for skimmer and heater purposes. I have no > bio balls in there at all. I have another 20 gallon that I use as a > refugium. Works very well and keeps A/N/N at 0. The macro grows like > crazy!! -- Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com > I have a wet/dry but only for skimmer and heater purposes. I have no > bio balls in there at all. I have another 20 gallon that I use as a > refugium. Works very well and keeps A/N/N at 0. The macro grows like > crazy!! Very good setup. Me, too. I have the same method. CapFusion,... >>I have a wet/dry but only for skimmer and heater purposes. I have no >>bio balls in there at all. I have another 20 gallon that I use as a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > CapFusion,... Can you be more specific on your setup? Maybe I should utilize the same. Thank you. > Can you be more specific on your setup? Maybe I should utilize the same. Water Pump: Main Tank > Refugium Sump > Main Tank Gravity Feed: Refugium > Main Tank Main Tank > Sump Sump job is to remove nutrient and bad critter Sump [40GUS] hold: Heater [#1] Skimmer [Mostly turn off] DSB [5in] Algae Agressive critter [shrimp / crab / etc] Water Pump Refugium is use to grow pod / algae / Nutrient Refugium [40GUS]: Light Heater [#2] DSB [~4 to 5.5in] Algae Pod Co2 Main Tank [100GUS] DSB [4in Front 5.5in Back] LR LS Varies Inhabitant Light Water Pump Heater [#3] So in reality, Both Sump and Refugium are taking up nutrient. Sump will also get fresh water mix. Sump have a spare chamber for multi-purpose use. Do you any more specific on the setup? CapFuion,... > I've learned that true w\d filters are a no-no in marine tanks...the > nitrates they kick out are poisonous to the fish, which are much more > sensitive to nitrates than fw fish. W/D filter produce nitrate [very effecient]. Marine fish can tolerate some high nitrate but will not kill immediate, though. But invert can be deadly. CapFusion,... > My levels seem to be fine so what are they ??? SignatureRichard Reynolds Richard.Reynolds@usa.net > > My levels seem to be fine > so what are they ??? A refugium, at least the way I have it, is another tank that sits in the stand next to my wet dry filter. Basically, it holds my caulerpa and sand/mud. This is good for nutrient export which keeps my nitrates down. Other people might use it as this AND keeping little critters in there as well. On a different message board, I've seen lots of people keeping mantis shrimp in there. It all depends on how you want to use it. Mine is just sand and the caulerpa, as far as I know :) You can also use Rubbermaid bins as refugiums as well, TONS of people use this. I just happened to use a tank because it was laying around. HTH > > > My levels seem to be fine > > so what are they ??? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > also use Rubbermaid bins as refugiums as well, TONS of people use > this. I just happened to use a tank because it was laying around. HTH That is fine. I keep all my trouble maker in there too. Maybe I should call it a prison tank instead. CapFusion,... My water levels are as follows: pH: 8.2 Ammonia: 0 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: 0 Phosphate: < 0.1 Hydrometer: 1.023 ALK: Normal That is all I have tests for. I had my tank water tested for copper. I was told it was not an issue. Should I be testing for anything else? I do about a 7 galllon water changes about 1/month. > How D, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use > something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem? questions > pH: 8.2 how did you test it? which kit or probe? > Nitrate: 0 also which kit? > Hydrometer: 1.023 you might consider upping this some, though thats probibly not important to the major concern > ALK: Normal get a real kit or have the LFS test it using a real kit come back with a number normal could be soooo many things > That is all I have tests for. I had my tank water tested for copper. I > was told it was not an issue. Should I be testing for anything else? > I do about a 7 galllon water changes about 1/month. why did you have it tested for copper, who tested it??? reasons I ask is IF the tank was previously used you wont be able to measure the copper, but itll still kill things. > > My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use > > something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem? no blue balls :D you probibly have a true sump already as most true sumps are wetdrys without the bio balls :D its probibly not gona help :( but it wont hurt. SignatureRichard Reynolds Richard.Reynolds@usa.net > questions > >>pH: 8.2 > > how did you test it? which kit or probe? Tested with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. High Range pH Test Kit. >>Nitrate: 0 > > also which kit? Tested with Red Sea Reef Lab test kit. >>Hydrometer: 1.023 > > you might consider upping this some, though thats probibly not important to the major > concern to what? >>ALK: Normal > > get a real kit or have the LFS test it using a real kit come back with a number normal > could be soooo many things What is LFS? What "real" kit would you recommend? >>That is all I have tests for. I had my tank water tested for copper. I >>was told it was not an issue. Should I be testing for anything else? >>I do about a 7 galllon water changes about 1/month. > > why did you have it tested for copper, Because of dieing Anemone, cleaner shrimp, and hermit crabs. who tested it??? Local Pet store. reasons I ask is IF the tank was > previously used you wont be able to measure the copper, but itll still kill things. Tank was converted from freshwater to saltwater by myself. >>>My question: should I be adding the "blue balls" to the wet/dry? Or use >>>something like a true sump or refugium? Will this help with my problem? > > no blue balls :D you probibly have a true sump already as most true sumps are wetdrys > without the bio balls :D its probibly not gona help :( but it wont hurt. > >>pH: 8.2 > > how did you test it? which kit or probe? > Tested with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. High Range pH Test Kit. ok could be better but wont worry its more likely not the problem. > >>Nitrate: 0 > > also which kit? > Tested with Red Sea Reef Lab test kit. not ok, you need something other than redsea, the salifert and seachem kits seem reliable IME there are others but redsea isnt a good one. you should check into this AFTER you respond about copper below. > >>Hydrometer: 1.023 > > you might consider upping this some, though thats probibly not important to the major > > concern > to what? fix whats broken first then up it to between 1.024 and 1.026 > >>ALK: Normal > > get a real kit or have the LFS test it using a real kit come back with a number normal > > could be soooo many things > What is LFS? What "real" kit would you recommend? sorry LFS == local fish store really ive had close enough results out of all of the ones that give you a number, the "ok" "ideal" "safe" ..... readings are not apropreate > > why did you have it tested for copper, > Because of dieing Anemone, cleaner shrimp, and hermit crabs. > who tested it??? good enough just needed the connection > Local Pet store. ok. > reasons I ask is IF the tank was > > previously used you wont be able to measure the copper, but itll still kill things. > Tank was converted from freshwater to saltwater by myself. did you use *ANY* copper in that tank, and i mean *ANY* at all ever, if so you cant use it for SW inverts. and this result is why. the best hobby kit ive seen reads to .1ppm the single source I found in 2 seconds shows copper toxic at .01ppm(there are better references and I know that number is real low.) if you have used copper in this tank you do not need to look any further for problems. if you didnt use copper then get to the LFS and get the nitrates checked with a kit, that gives you a number, and NOT one that uses a plastic strip and color changing pads :D IME the free tests use the strips and the $ ones use better kits my lfs charges $1 each test with 4 tests minimum SignatureRichard Reynolds Richard.Reynolds@usa.net >>>>pH: 8.2 >>> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > plastic strip and color changing pads :D IME the free tests use the strips and the $ ones > use better kits my lfs charges $1 each test with 4 tests minimum I never used any copper in this tank that I am aware of. I used to use lead weights for plants when it was a fresh water tank. That totally messed up the fresh water tank and once removed the tank returned to normal. As stated before, I did have the water tested at LFS and he told me there was no copper in the water. So you think I need better test kits? Could the problem be from a deficiency instead of a toxic? I currently use as additives: 2 1/2 tbs 2 x/week SeaChem Reef Plus, Reef Complete and Reef Calcium. To each gallon of water I add due to evaporation (every 2 days) on weeks 2 & 4 I add 1tbs Reef advantage and week 3 1tbs reef builder. I do admit I was slacking for about 2 months. - thanks. |
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