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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Marine Reef / July 2006Solaris LED and seagrass
Hi, I am setting up a 22 inch tall temperate seahorse and seagrass tank. I was worried about te heat from the MH lights and planned on getting a chiller. If the LED's would be acceptable for the grasses, they would be much cooler, and I could buy a smaller chiller (I still plan to get a chiller even if I use the LEDs, because if the air conditioner goes out, it gets awful hot in GA.) Would this light setup be strong enough for the sea grasses? Thanks, Elizabeth You don't need high intensity lighting for seahorses. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com Elizabeth Davis wrote on 7/17/2006 9:52 AM: > Hi, I am setting up a 22 inch tall temperate seahorse and seagrass > tank. I was worried about te heat from the MH lights and planned on [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Elizabeth > Would this light setup be strong enough for the sea grasses? But what exactly "light setup" do you have on mind ? You do not mention how strong is the light you want to buy... I have never kept seagrasses, but judging by the way they grow in shallow water in tropical areas, they like strong illumination... Hi, the light setup is the solaris LED www:solarisled.com I need the light for the sea grasses W ayne, not for the sea horses. Elizabeth Lizarddavis@webtv.net (Elizabeth Davis) wrote in news:12761-44BC88A2-1561 @storefull-3213.bay.webtv.net: > Hi, the light setup is the solaris LED > www:solarisled.com > I need the light for the sea grasses W ayne, not for the sea horses. > Elizabeth Hi Elizabeth, From your cited website: "Scheduled to ship August 15, 2006" You're going to have a hard time getting an evaluation from usenet members on a light system that isn't yet commercially available. If you're worried about the energy output of this system, wait for independent reviews of this new tech to come out. I use LED sources in the course of my job (non aquatic), and while they certainly could be made intense enough to grow corals, no one has any experience with them. Sorry, I think you're off the edge of the map with this product... Regards R. David Zopf Atom Weaver > Hi, the light setup is the solaris LED > www.solarisled.com If this is true what they say about PAR output than it should be ok for seagrasses... as is good for corals. Acording to the manufacturer it produces more light than 250W MH. I wonder what is the true spectrum of the light and if it truly lasts 50 000 hours... >> Hi, the light setup is the solaris LED >> www.solarisled.com [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > than 250W MH. I wonder what is the true spectrum > of the light and if it truly lasts 50 000 hours... I cannot confirm the PAR or the equivalent lighting output, but the 50,000 hours service time is fairly accurate for LEDs. Note, these may not have any replaceable parts. Once you reach the end of the lifetime of the LEDs, the whole fixture will no longer be of use (or, having it factory reconditioned for another 50,000 hours may come at a cost closely approaching that of a new LED system). LEDs will fail in a "full off" manner, meaning unlike the spectral decay you experience with MH or HO bulbs, you'll get the full power of the LEDs rught up until the day they die. This is both good and bad. Good, in that you'll get very consistent light, and an incredibly long service lifetime. Bad, in that some day when the lights _do_ fail, you'll have to scurry around for an interim lighting solution, whilst waiting for your replacement/ reconditioned LED (note, 50,000 hours at 16 hours lighting per day, means you'll have this problem once every 8.5 years, on average.) Claims of low heat output from hese systems are accurate. The load demand on a chiller may be significantly reduced. Spectrum of output is another matter. IME, LEDs emit in very narrow bands of output, but different band emission LEDs can be "ganged" together in a single fixture to approximate the spectral output of a conventional bulb. Does it get close enough to sunlight to make your corals happy? I'd want empirical evidence to that point, across a broad range of species, before I'd shell out the extra money for this system, (and they currently look to be about 2x to 5x more expensive than other aquarium lighting fixtures . MSRP on 20K 48 inch system; $2325.00, MSRP on the 72 inch system; $3344 Ouch! Still, for 8.5 _years_ of steady, bulb-free lighting...). Again, all of my experience with LEDs comes from industrial use (I work in an industry which uses UV light to help make chemical reactions happen; http://www.radtech.org The LED I borrow my experience from is this one; http://www.phoseon.com/documentation/PHO_RX_Firefly.pdf) , so this experience may not apply directly to this product. Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver > I cannot confirm the PAR or the equivalent lighting output, but the > 50,000 hours service time is fairly accurate for LEDs. I would guess it will depend on the type of the LED, and on the condition it is used at (overcurrent, temperature). We had already a precedence where some moon-lights were worn prematurelly (less than a year) due to the manufacturer supplying them with cheapo, unreagulated power supply driving them at or above their maximal tolerable current values. Yes, they were very bright, but they did not last long... > Note, these may not have any replaceable parts. > Once you reach the end of the lifetime > of the LEDs, the whole fixture will no longer be of use (or, having it > factory reconditioned for another 50,000 hours may come at a cost > closely approaching that of a new LED system). Agree. > LEDs will fail in a "full off" manner, meaning unlike the spectral > decay you experience with MH or HO bulbs, you'll get the full power of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 16 hours lighting per day, means you'll have this problem once every 8.5 > years, on average.) There are many different LED technologies and we do not know what type of LED are used in this fixture. I have seen already white LED made with the similar principle white fluorescent tubes are made: native LED spectrum is UV and the LED lenses are covered with white phosphors, re-emiting white light when they receive UV rays from the LED. I could only expect the same kind of decay of light spectrum and similar longevity with this kind of LEDs. Assuming a white LED is made on a different principle of mixing base colors to get white effect - with at least three different color LED chips inside one "bulb" I could not imagine how can you get properly spread light spectrum to imitate sun-light... You would rather get light with three or four (depending on number of led chips colors per bulb) peaks in the spectrum and not spread spectrum like incadescent or good HQI/MH fixtures give... > Claims of low heat output from hese systems are accurate. > The load demand on a chiller may be significantly reduced. Do you have any access to the efficiency of LED light data ? Do they really produce more light per Watt of electricity used than MH ? > Spectrum of output is another matter. IME, LEDs emit in very narrow > bands of output, but different band emission LEDs can be "ganged" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (and they currently look to be about 2x to 5x more expensive than other > aquarium lighting fixtures . I have read about corals to adjust to the light they receive and colors they can absorb to use energy from... I would rather worry on the color effects to the human eye when you watch animals in such artificial light... > MSRP on 20K 48 inch system; $2325.00, MSRP > on the 72 inch system; $3344 Ouch! Still, for 8.5 _years_ of steady, > bulb-free lighting...). I would like to know what LED components they use and I could make such fixture myself buying parts for www.digikey.com or www.mouser.com :-) >> I cannot confirm the PAR or the equivalent lighting output, but the >> 50,000 hours service time is fairly accurate for LEDs. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > them at or above their maximal tolerable current values. > Yes, they were very bright, but they did not last long... Sure. Poor engineering can _always_ overcome the most robust components :-) >> LEDs will fail in a "full off" manner, meaning unlike the spectral >> decay you experience with MH or HO bulbs, you'll get the full power [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > kind of decay of light spectrum and similar longevity with > this kind of LEDs. You caught me! I assumed from the claim of 50,000 hours that this was a visible specrum semiconductor light array, assembled without the use of lenses (which, as you say, will degrade just like bulbs). Such would be the only tech I'm aware of which could make the claim of 50K hours of steady output. Still, its an assumption I shouldn't have made... > Assuming a white LED is made on a different principle of mixing > base colors to get white effect - with at least three different [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > number of led chips colors per bulb) peaks in the spectrum and > not spread spectrum like incadescent or good HQI/MH fixtures give... I'd expect something more like 15-60 different selected wavelengths of output, and thus a more complete spectrum. >> Claims of low heat output from hese systems are accurate. >> The load demand on a chiller may be significantly reduced. > > Do you have any access to the efficiency of LED light data ? > Do they really produce more light per Watt of electricity used than MH > ? I know from direct experience how efficient they are in terms of an energy source for pushing industrial chemical reactions. Spectrum of output is much narrower than a standard bulb, but if the catalyst you want to have run your reaction happens to be efficient at absorbing light in the wavelength of output of the LED, then Yes, the LED source is much more efficient, watt for watt. Same goes for visible light, although the light fixtures are vastly too expensive at this point to be reasonable for replacing typical flourescent fixtures for human use (althoguh I don't doubt that they'll be the standard at some point in the future, if they can get their costs down). Being an industrial chemist, I don't know nearly enough about the active absorption wavelengths used photosynthesis to make that same assesssment of these lights for use in reef aquariums. The vendor claim of 178 PAR vs. 133 for a 250W MH source is a starting point, but that kind of measurement could be an inaccurate means of assessing an LED source. DZ All of the data you guys see on these lights is true. I know that for fact. Soon Sanjay will be coming out with an article on these lights, PAR and SED plots, etc.. That is all I can say for now :-) A good friend of mine is an electrical lighting engineer, who designs such a lighting systems, who has built his own with similar results and comments. I have his unpublished very, very, technical article explain it all, which may appear in one of our on-line reef magazines; the array, type of LED's circuit designs, power supplies, outputs, cost, etc. Solairs has been working on this lighting system for 2 years. I have had phone conversations with the owner. TRA III has some discussions on advanced lighting system in the works and reef lighting systems of the future, to include LED's. LED's are the future of reef lighting.  SignatureBoomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com : >> I cannot confirm the PAR or the equivalent lighting output, but the : >> 50,000 hours service time is fairly accurate for LEDs. [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] : : DZ It would be valuable to get the model number of the LED device used. This would allow to get my hands on the datasheet for the device and learn more about the light output, color spectrum, life in hours etc. Can you be kind and provide here only model numbers of LED components used before writing the whole article? Thanks. > All of the data you guys see on these lights is true. I know that for fact. Soon Sanjay > will be coming out with an article on these lights, PAR and SED plots, etc.. That is all I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the works and reef lighting systems of the future, to include LED's. LED's are the future > of reef lighting. I will say no more than this and that is it . Look into Osram Golden Dragonwhite and blue LED's. SignatureBoomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com : It would be valuable to get the model number of the LED device used. : This would allow to get my hands on the datasheet for the device [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] : > the works and reef lighting systems of the future, to include LED's. LED's are the future : > of reef lighting. and you might like this Poor Man's Spectrometer: Estimating Lamp Spectral Quality for Less Than $30 http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aafeature SignatureBoomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com :I will say no more than this and that is it . : [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] : future :: > of reef lighting. Your 3 days too late on that one :-) See post 3 days ago :-) Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com Boomer wrote on 7/18/2006 5:13 PM: > and you might like this > > Poor Man's Spectrometer: Estimating Lamp Spectral Quality for Less Than $30 > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aafeature I must have had a senior moment. I did see that post.. lol SignatureBoomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com : Your 3 days too late on that one :-) : [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : > Poor Man's Spectrometer: Estimating Lamp Spectral Quality for Less Than $30 : > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aafeature > and you might like this > > Poor Man's Spectrometer: Estimating Lamp Spectral Quality for Less Than $30 > http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aafeature I saw this already, thanks. > I will say no more than this and that is it . > > Look into Osram Golden Dragonwhite and blue LED's. I thought so... :-) I read about them recently in the monthly magazine of our distributor... :-) OK you are on a roll Pszemol :-). The one my friend did was to replace 2- 250W MH & 2 VHO==> $5,000.00 estimated Yah, Dragon's have pretty much changed the LED world from what it was. The real issue is can we get 5 W LED's to work without all the flippin' heat. A hobby of mine is collecting high tech flashlights. Some have 1 or 2- 5W and heat is a big issue. When I asked a guy to mod one of my 2-D cell with 3-5 W, he said no way, things will melt, body needs to be longer to dissipate heat. It has 2-5watt. and now runs on 2- AA D-cylinders packs ( 3 AA / D-pack or 6 AA). It will blind you lol -- Boomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com : > I will say no more than this and that is it . : > : > Look into Osram Golden Dragonwhite and blue LED's. : : I thought so... :-) I read about them recently : in the monthly magazine of our distributor... :-) > OK you are on a roll Pszemol :-). > > The one my friend did was to replace 2- 250W MH & 2 VHO==> $5,000.00 estimated I am not going to buy/build one - I was just interested in verifying claims about them being cooler and - which is connected - more efficient... Also, I wanted to check what is the white color spectrum transmitted from the LED. > Yah, Dragon's have pretty much changed the LED world from what it was. The real issue is > can we get 5 W LED's to work without all the flippin' heat. A hobby of mine is collecting > high tech flashlights. Some have 1 or 2- 5W and heat is a big issue. When I asked a guy to > mod one of my 2-D cell with 3-5 W, he said no way, things will melt, body needs to be > longer to dissipate heat. It has 2-5watt. and now runs on 2- AA D-cylinders packs ( 3 AA > / D-pack or 6 AA). It will blind you lol And this heat makes me worry that the manufacturer claim might be incorrect. "And this heat makes me worry that the manufacturer claim might be incorrect." The have found some way to dissipate heat, they wont' tell me yet how they are doing it. :-( The are playing with some mufti-array 5 W units and tell me the heat is not an issue. The smaller W LED's are not that big an issue.. My friends was 720 W using 600 LED @ 1.2 W ea.. If you look at the Solaris it has 50 arrays and each array has maybe 10 LED or so (guessing). PFO lighting is a pretty big company. SignatureBoomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com : > OK you are on a roll Pszemol :-). : > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : : And this heat makes me worry that the manufacturer claim might be incorrect. Pszemol wrote on 7/19/2006 5:47 PM: > And this heat makes me worry that the manufacturer claim might be > incorrect. Well one thing you can count on is watts being practically the same as measuring heat. How many watts it uses is how much heat it will generate. Now keep in mind that's not necessarily how hot the bulb will be, but how much total heat will be created. This includes the amount of heat that is created in the tank as the light energy is absorbed. Naturally you want as much of that wattage going into the visible light leaving the bulb, and less of that wattage being produced into direct heat leaving the bulb. Keep in mind too, that a soldering iron, is only 3 watts. A heat sink will easily take the heat away, and spread it out so that it is not all concentrated in one location. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com Hey everybody, I have been out of town a few days.... Thanks for all the info and discussion!!! Boomer, when will Sanjay's review be out? Sounds like you think LEDs are a good idea??? I love the controller options also!! Thanks Elizabeth I'm not sure but when it will come out but I'll post a link . SignatureBoomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com : Hey everybody, I have been out of town a few days.... Thanks for all : the info and discussion!!! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] : Thanks : Elizabeth > I will say no more than this and that is it . > > Look into Osram Golden Dragon white and blue LED's. These guys do much better than golden dragon: http://www.cree.com/press/40.htm 47 lumens per watt, 57 lumens typical output compared to 23 lumens typical "golden dragon" output. http://ledlightingsupply.com/ledlightingsupply/Cree%20XR%207090%20Series%20LEDs.htm Those Cree are pretty nice and go up to 3 W. That is a nice find Pszemol :-) I have only see Luxeon. I'll have to drop this on my flashlight guy SignatureBoomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com : > I will say no more than this and that is it . : > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : compared to 23 lumens typical "golden dragon" output. : http://ledlightingsupply.com/ledlightingsupply/Cree%20XR%207090%20Series%20LEDs.htm > Those Cree are pretty nice and go up to 3 W. That is a nice find Pszemol :-) > I have only see Luxeon. I'll have to drop this on my flashlight guy This Luxeon ? 130 lumens is not that bad ;-) http://www.led-shop24.de/pd1140263044.htm?categoryId=3 Yes those are but like 5.6 W = heat . The are the 5 W ones we use in flashlights 120 lm http://www.led-shop24.de/pd1065960784.htm?categoryId=9 This is a nice webpage even though it is hard to read some of it. SignatureBoomer If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD) Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php Want to See More ! The Coral Realm http://www.coralrealm.com : > Those Cree are pretty nice and go up to 3 W. That is a nice find Pszemol :-) : > I have only see Luxeon. I'll have to drop this on my flashlight guy : : This Luxeon ? 130 lumens is not that bad ;-) : http://www.led-shop24.de/pd1140263044.htm?categoryId=3 And with the LED technology that is coming out of the rear projection HDTV arena, with the need for an alternative to current High Pressure Lamps, having to deal with the heat and the associated noise from cooling the unit, plus having to shell out several hundred dollars every so often to replace the HP Lamps. I wouldn't be surprised if manufacturing costs of High Output LEDs will drop drastically within a reasonable time frame. There are now HDTVs coming out with LEDs used for the backlighting. >All of the data you guys see on these lights is true. I know that for fact. Soon Sanjay >will be coming out with an article on these lights, PAR and SED plots, etc.. That is all I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > SignatureRic Seyler Online Racing: RicSeyler GPL Handicap 6.35 ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler remove –SPAM- from email address -------------------------------------- "Homer no function beer well without." - H.J. Simpson When you say sea grass, are you refering to seaweed like calerpa, or actual salt water grass? Yes "sea grass" does need lots of light, much more than calerpa, and other sea weeds (algae). As for the led's, I'm not yet sold on the idea. I still lean towards a more natural spread of spectrum. I want to see the true colors of the reef. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com Elizabeth Davis wrote on 7/18/2006 3:07 AM: > Hi, the light setup is the solaris LED > www:solarisled.com > I need the light for the sea grasses W ayne, not for the sea horses. > Elizabeth |
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