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Pet Forum / Aquaria / Marine Reef / October 20064 foot high tank
Hi there I'm looking to get back into a marine tank. It's been a while since I have had one. the last was a bio ball setup which i believe has gone out of fashion to be replaced by live rocks etc. anyway my question is.. I'm looking at this tank http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Unique-Custom-4-foot-tall-fish-tank-aquarium-full-setup_W 0QQitemZ150044026743QQihZ005QQcategoryZ20755QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and just wondering if higher rather than wider tanks are still harder to maintain with the new techniques of fish and invertebrates keeping. Cheers thanks for taking the tinme to repspond > Hi there > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and just wondering if higher rather than wider tanks are still harder > to maintain with the new techniques of fish and invertebrates keeping. The surface area is still the main limiting factor. That's not your main problem here, however. This tank has aluminum edging. Metal is a no-no in marine tanks. George Patterson All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are permanent. >> I'm looking to get back into a marine tank. It's been a while since I >> have had one. the last was a bio ball setup which i believe has gone [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The surface area is still the main limiting factor. That's not your main problem here, however. This tank has aluminum edging. > Metal is a no-no in marine tanks. You are correct, but I would say more important problem will be the hight. Unless you are a chimpanzee with 4-feet long arms - how are you going to mantain this tank ? Have you imagined the ways you will do aquascaping? How do you set up the rock work ? Not everything can be done with tongs! 2nd issue - fish collection. This tank can be ok for seahorses, but almost any other fish needs an ample room for swiming left to righ, not up/down. 3rd issue - reef /lighting. All corals which need light will have to be on the top, 2x2' surface, so it will be limited room for reef design. Also, you will have to have very strong bulb and good light focusing reflector to reach tank that deep if you place any ligth liking animal near the bottom. Other than that - the tank will be dark. Think of the reasons the person is selling this tank and you will know why you do not want to have it as well :-))) > You are correct, but I would say more important problem will be the hight. > Unless you are a chimpanzee with 4-feet long arms - how are you going > to mantain this tank ? Have you imagined the ways you will do aquascaping? > How do you set up the rock work ? Not everything can be done with tongs! Yep, that's a problem. > 2nd issue - fish collection. This tank can be ok for seahorses, but almost > any other fish needs an ample room for swiming left to righ, not up/down. Maybe. I had a friend who had a similar tank with a large moray eel in it. He built an artificial coral head in the center, and it was very impressive. I can imagine the same sort of thing set up with several small fish; in fact, I saw something like what I envision at the Boston aquarium. The fish tend to just swim around the center decoration. > 3rd issue - reef /lighting. All corals which need light will have to be > on the > top, 2x2' surface, so it will be limited room for reef design. Also, you > will have to have very strong bulb and good light focusing reflector to > reach tank that deep if you place any ligth liking animal near the bottom. > Other than that - the tank will be dark. I'm not so sure about that. My vet has a huge reef tank in the lobby. This thing is at least 12' high and 10' across. Since it sits on a stand about 4' high, we're talking about a water column about 8' high; maybe several feet more. It's circular, with a huge column of live rock in the center. I'm sure there's some sort of framework to support this, but it's cleverly hidden; probably some sort of rack of plastic shelves. Way up at the top is a set of 6 lights, arranged in a radial fashion. They resemble the Outer Orbit brand, but may not be. This tank supports some impressive soft corals at eye level. That makes them about 7' below the lights. Of course, you have the standard fluorescent lighting common in waiting rooms to help out, but I think the tank lights are doing the majority of the work. As an interesting side note, this tank apparently has some sort of refugium at the top of the live rock column. If you back off into the main lobby, you can see the tops of some mangroves sticking up above the rock. George Patterson All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are permanent. > > You are correct, but I would say more important problem will be the hight. > > Unless you are a chimpanzee with 4-feet long arms - how are you going [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > George Patterson > All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are permanent. Thanks for all your replys, I believe the aluminuim in on the outside to hide the corners only, so i dont think that will be a problem. I'm still seeing this as a challege as it would look very cool. I didn't think about getting into the tank tho. so thanks for brinnging that to my attention. I am 6.4 so i have a good reach tho(with tongs... lol good idea). still weighing up the pros and cons. ok cons only. I think the biggest problem will be water movement. any ideas? > I believe the aluminuim in on the outside to hide the corners only, so > i dont think that will be a problem. I'm still seeing this as a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the pros and cons. ok cons only. I think the biggest problem will be > water movement. any ideas? The large tank I mentioned has plastic grates visible within the central stack of live rock. I would guess that some are intakes and others outlets for circulation pumps. George Patterson All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are permanent. >> I believe the aluminuim in on the outside to hide the corners only, so >> i dont think that will be a problem. I'm still seeing this as a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are > permanent. I fit branching plumbing on my powerheads to achieve less dead spots. I try leave some chilled spots for fish to rest/sleep tho. A tank non stop blasted is a tank fed 10 times a day to fend off death. Something I am getting into more is drilling 2 holes thru the base and rigging a cannister filter under the tank. Simple, hidden and yea I likes....... is more suitable to small oddball tanks tho For a large deep one thats gonna be mostly fish only..... shock horror I'd reccomend maybe 4 of those round black air powered sponge filters. the bubble updraft will circulate the deep tank quite well. 4 means you can stagger cleaning. Lids are needed tho to fend off splash and pop from da bubbles! chuck in a nice powerhead for more surface agitation and current and it would be a suitable el' cheapo solution. then ya just gotta cycle the bugger :P > I fit branching plumbing on my powerheads to achieve less dead spots. > I try leave some chilled spots for fish to rest/sleep tho. > A tank non stop blasted is a tank fed 10 times a day to fend off death. Are you talking about reef tank or fish-only tank ? > For a large deep one thats gonna be mostly fish only..... shock horror I'd > reccomend maybe 4 of those round black air powered sponge filters. > the bubble updraft will circulate the deep tank quite well. 4 means you can > stagger cleaning. Air powered sponges in a reef/marine setup ? 8-) >> I fit branching plumbing on my powerheads to achieve less dead spots. >> I try leave some chilled spots for fish to rest/sleep tho. >> A tank non stop blasted is a tank fed 10 times a day to fend off death. > > Are you talking about reef tank or fish-only tank ? both, well i was. the topic starter was kinda vague >> For a large deep one thats gonna be mostly fish only..... shock horror >> I'd reccomend maybe 4 of those round black air powered sponge filters. >> the bubble updraft will circulate the deep tank quite well. 4 means you >> can stagger cleaning. > > Air powered sponges in a reef/marine setup ? 8-) a column of liverock and..... don't sound like much of a reef to me. And yes I currently run 5 tanks on nothing but them and powerheads. Sure maybe only 5 out of 20 that I play with weekly but they work for deep tanks. I am well aware of the need for circulation and it's importance for reef critters. but ya they work well in a marine tank. infact I can't really think of a freshwater based filter that wouldn't work in saltwater? minus rusting bits and stuff. anyway tis cheap and easy and as a plus the bubbles look good. heck if ya can chill the air it chills the tank rokin doesn't have to be a final filtration solution but they do cycle well and are easy the phase out. plus they are handy to rig to battery powered aerators in blackouts :) cheap easy and foolproof is popular with me hey > And yes I currently run 5 tanks on nothing but them and powerheads. Do you have some pictures of your 5 tanks with nothing than sponge filters? I would love to see them... >> And yes I currently run 5 tanks on nothing but them and powerheads. > > Do you have some pictures of your 5 tanks with nothing than sponge > filters? > I would love to see them... Okay but they are fish only yea gimme a bit here these are busy days but I could walk over to a mates and show you pics of a rack of nemo raising tanks running ugf > Okay but they are fish only yea > gimme a bit here > these are busy days > but I could walk over to a mates and show you pics of a rack of nemo raising > tanks running ugf No need to show me breeding tanks I have my own to look at. I want to see beautiful show tanks, the ones you have with sponge filters. >> Okay but they are fish only yea >> gimme a bit here [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No need to show me breeding tanks I have my own to look at. > I want to see beautiful show tanks, the ones you have with sponge filters. no not show tanks, selling tanks I have used them to slacken the initail cycle in display tanks tho. helps prevent die off on live rock by reducing severity of ammonia spike, while the tanks main filtration cycles that said it could be done, just the sponges can be ugly if not hidden and require frequent cleaning. If it was my tank I would drill some nice outlets and inlets and sump the hell out of it. costly plumbing but very low maintenence aside from evap top up and water changes. Still you can do a lot with powerheads and sponge air filtration. Tour ANY major wholesaler and you will see their power on an industrial scale. But I digress and stand corrected. I have no beautiful display tank to show you running those filters. They are sumped and hidden by the stand. Or running cannisters / powerheads I do use my prefilters as air powered filters during black outs so that kind of counts. :P Get a budget off the man perhaps and we can see if a fluval fx5/ehiem pro 3 , custom skimmer and UVS is the solution for the case, if he should try for a in other news I just got back from a nice trade show Was in a quarantine room on a tour.... all full size panda orandas. thousands yea I know reef, but they were like soccor ballz hey very cool >> No need to show me breeding tanks I have my own to look at. >> I want to see beautiful show tanks, the ones you have with sponge filters. > > no not show tanks, selling tanks I am sure the original poster was thinking about a show tank, not quarantine, not grow-up tank, not wholeseller tank... Show tanks are run with different equipment, so let's not mix this. >>> No need to show me breeding tanks I have my own to look at. >>> I want to see beautiful show tanks, the ones you have with sponge [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not quarantine, not grow-up tank, not wholeseller tank... > Show tanks are run with different equipment, so let's not mix this. nyea once again it's gonna depend on the person and their budget/experience * Pszemol wrote, On 10/13/2006 9:36 AM: >> no not show tanks, selling tanks > > I am sure the original poster was thinking about a show tank, > not quarantine, not grow-up tank, not wholeseller tank... > Show tanks are run with different equipment, so let's not mix this. The original poster isn't the only one reading, and I for one like to learn ALL the possibilities. Cindy Sponge filtering is not a possibility that you want to use with a salt water aquarium, much less a reef tank. They do however have a lot of benefits for breeder tanks in fresh water, and some with salt water fry tanks, but such a salt water tank would have lots of salt creep, and any electrical cords or anything else electrical would be wet with salt water. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com Cindy wrote on 10/13/2006 7:18 PM: > * Pszemol wrote, On 10/13/2006 9:36 AM: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Cindy * Wayne Sallee wrote, On 10/13/2006 6:42 PM: > Sponge filtering is not a possibility that you want to use with a salt > water aquarium, much less a reef tank. They do however have a lot of > benefits for breeder tanks in fresh water, and some with salt water fry > tanks, but such a salt water tank would have lots of salt creep, and any > electrical cords or anything else electrical would be wet with salt water. Couldn't you use a sponge filter with a powerhead instead of air pump? That would be better in that it would not cause salt creep, or splashing, but it still is not the way to go for a reef tank for many reasons. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com Cindy wrote on 10/13/2006 8:13 PM: > * Wayne Sallee wrote, On 10/13/2006 6:42 PM: >> Sponge filtering is not a possibility that you want to use with a salt [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Couldn't you use a sponge filter with a powerhead instead of air pump? Wayne your a wally hey. Seriously...... Cindy it won't work so well because the sponge on most airfilters is very fine. These clog very rapidly when used with a powerhead and so need to be cleaned regularily to maintain powerhead water flow. When powered by air the water flows thru the sponge slowly meaning the bacteria have lots of contact time with the water in which to fix ammonia and nitrite. Explain these many reasons wayne? I mean yea shoot me down if you have too but christ at least give a reason eh? more than one way to skin a cat mate and when you stock tanks with a good amount of life the most important thing to keep oxygen levels up is a nice disturbed splashy surface. What is more important than filter type is to match bacteria colonys to the amount you feed the tank. As long as your filters provide sufficient surface area for the needed bacteria to colonise and ya never kill them all washing under a tap or something then the nitrate cycle is taken out of the equation as a worry. People scared of salt creep should grow up I think piscine tb is a much more worthy concern heh > That would be better in that it would not cause salt creep, or splashing, > but it still is not the way to go for a reef tank for many reasons. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Couldn't you use a sponge filter with a powerhead instead of air pump? * swarvegorilla wrote, On 10/15/2006 12:17 AM: > Wayne your a wally hey. > Seriously...... > Cindy it won't work so well because the sponge on most airfilters is very > fine. These clog very rapidly when used with a powerhead and so need to be > cleaned regularily to maintain powerhead water flow. That would make sense. Thanks! > When powered by air the water flows thru the sponge slowly meaning the > bacteria have lots of contact time with the water in which to fix ammonia > and nitrite. I ran my first saltwater tank, 50 gallons, with an UG filter, oyster shell substrate, Dynamaster II air pump and glass bead airstones. Yeah, that was a long time ago.... Salt creep is a pain in the butt, but I had less problems with my tank with all that nice air, and I NEVER had to fight cyanobacteria, which has been a constant problem for me lately. > Explain these many reasons wayne? > I mean yea shoot me down if you have too but christ at least give a reason [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I think piscine tb is a much more worthy concern > heh > Salt creep is a pain in the butt, but I had less problems with my tank with all > that nice air, and I NEVER had to fight cyanobacteria, which has been > a constant problem for me lately. Cyanobacteria becomes a problem in fish tanks, where there is not enough nitrates but large amounts of phosphates... UGF produces a lot of nitrates, similarly like sponge and canister fiters so you will less likely have problems with cyanobacteria, but more likely with ugly green hair algae. I am not sure what algae looks uglier to be honest... >> Salt creep is a pain in the butt, but I had less problems with my tank >> with all that nice air, and I NEVER had to fight cyanobacteria, which has [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > with ugly green hair algae. I am not sure what algae looks uglier to be > honest... Really it depends what media your cannisters are packed with and what your maintenence shedule is. example I have a double fbf, the first chamber is just sand but the next is full of purigen. so yes still a nitrate factory but the second chamber helps absorb. Algae is a number one concern in marine tanks. It shouldn't be but it is. Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second. The only point I wanted to make is that with the proper dedication and research there is no reason a coupla cycled air sponge filters could not support a nice tank of damsels, pair clowns, dottyback, maybe a bicolour angel and lawn mower blenny. If it's going to be a full reef then you need to get serious on your equipment level. chillers and lights need to be bought suppliments to promote coral growth over algae all sorts crap. but for a low tech tank, patience and good husbandry is enuf. 'Display' is a sense of mind. Yes maybe a tank in a hotel is going to have to be 'a slice of the ocean' with no visable filters and exotic corals. but a tank in the living room, stocked with conscienscously chosen fish that do well in captivity, and a bit of maintenence is also what I call a display. If it's your first tank, I say set up a little cheap one. My first marine tank was maybe 2 foot and had a crab in it. It cost me maybe$20 in total and that includes second hand tank, powerhead filter and a live crab from fish markets. I had a world of fun keeping salt levels right due to huge evap, and waiting out the nitrate cycle. Most of the drawbacks of large tanks are financial I tell ya. heh heh point is I setup a cheap tank and did research and tested water. I never killed a fish in that tank. I admit it ended up with a pair of unkillable clowns for ages tho. If however it was not for me. I wouldn't have spent ALL me cash and still would have had the experience. That said bring on the requirements as you see them for a 'display' tank Don't forget the UVC and kalk dosers. :) > Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second. It is very hard to compare real ocean to our fish tanks... > The only point I wanted to make is that with the proper dedication and > research there is no reason a coupla cycled air sponge filters could not > support a nice tank of damsels, pair clowns, dottyback, maybe a bicolour > angel and lawn mower blenny. I would always like such statements backed up with a nice pictures showing beautiful tanks with no problematic algae running this way :-) How are you progressing in making such photos of your tanks ? What are the levels of nitrates and phosphates in your tanks ? What is your maintenance schedule ? How often do you play with the tanks ? How big is the tank from the above mentioned example ? > If it's going to be a full reef then you need to get serious on your > equipment level. > chillers and lights need to be bought > suppliments to promote coral growth over algae > all sorts crap. What supplements would you add ? How do they work in supporting corals to outcompete algae in our tanks? > 'Display' is a sense of mind. Yes maybe a tank in a hotel is going to have > to be 'a slice of the ocean' with no visable filters and exotic corals. > but a tank in the living room, stocked with conscienscously chosen fish that > do well in captivity, and a bit of maintenence is also what I call a > display. What I say by "display" is the tank which has PRIMARY concern: aesthetics. It simply has to LOOK nice. The different story is for example in breeding tanks or grow up tanks... In such tanks you do not care much about how do they look - what you care for is that you can cram a lot of fish in smalles possible tank without sacrificing their health and well being... So if you have to add big and ugly filter in the center of the tank - do it... Again, you do not care about aesthetics in a grow-up tanks. It can be ugly but it has to work. Opposite to your show tank in living room - it cannot be an eyesore with visible plumbing or a lot of hair algae covering rocks. > That said bring on the requirements as you see them for a 'display' tank > Don't forget the UVC and kalk dosers. > :) UVC is a no-no for a reef tank. You want to encourage the plankton growth in the water instead of killing it with UVC lamp... You filter feeding animals like clams, scallops, feather dusters, sponges will feed on unicellular algae in the water preventing the green water problems you might want to fight withUVC lamp in FO tanks. >> Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second. > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > sponges will feed on unicellular algae in the water preventing the > green water problems you might want to fight withUVC lamp in FO tanks. Ok lemme get back to this sorry but one other little advantage is bubble filtration is little critter friendly much less damaging than impellors and the like. I'd also like to just say that as a combo filter they work well but ya sleep n stuff >>> Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second. >> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > I'd also like to just say that as a combo filter they work well > but ya sleep n stuff Are you going to answer my specific questions included in the previous posting? swarvegorilla wrote on 10/17/2006 9:45 AM: > Ok lemme get back to this sorry > but one other little advantage is bubble filtration is little critter > friendly > much less damaging than impellors and the like. > I'd also like to just say that as a combo filter they work well > but ya sleep n stuff That's one of the many reasons that I like to use one big pump to do all the water movement, instead of power heads. But what ever water movement method you use, with good water movement around the rock and corals, that stuff gets filtered out quite well. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com >> Even the barrier reef is mainly algae species, coral is a distant second. > > It is very hard to compare real ocean to our fish tanks... mate I work with simulations not replications. I know how the rules are different. i.e. size = dilution >> The only point I wanted to make is that with the proper dedication and >> research there is no reason a coupla cycled air sponge filters could not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > showing beautiful tanks with no problematic algae running this way :-) > How are you progressing in making such photos of your tanks ? Not at all My sponge filtered tanks are chockers with fish. I'm hardly about to go riding around taking photo's of peoples tanks to satify one crazy usenet freek with a million questions and demands. no disrespect intended as I'm one as well but I'm a busy man eh. > What are the levels of nitrates and phosphates in your tanks ? WTF would you care? Come on dude > What is your maintenance schedule ? I water change 25% EVERY sunday I live beside the unspoilt pacific yea and pump it into big plastic drums on a truck at a boat ramp How often do you play with > the tanks ? every day or once a month depends on the tank and it's need for sparkle fresh appearance How big is the tank from the above mentioned example ? get a life mate if you really need to know so much about the tanks come read the bloody journals for them yourself hey >> If it's going to be a full reef then you need to get serious on your >> equipment level. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What supplements would you add ? > How do they work in supporting corals to outcompete algae in our tanks? They come in bottles and are called things like 'live rock food', I also mix my own kalk and culture greenwater for me filter feeders when I can be bothered. Remember I work in the industry mate, little widdle fings in your tank like coraline algae and stuff suck minerals outta the water to build body structures yea? Once they are gone the algae that doesn't need them surges ahead. Do your own bloody research. I do not at all see why ya need the details when you supposedly know them dude? If I need a suppliment I ask 4 different reps their opinion, then I ask me fellow lfs brotherhood, then I check my books, then the net and if all else fails or I feel no$taljik usenet :) but usually a handful of epsomsalt or calc carb powder can do any job a fancy bottle can do yes I can do the science to a .ppm but when you face a problem the 2nd time, you already have an idea of the solution. >> 'Display' is a sense of mind. Yes maybe a tank in a hotel is going to >> have to be 'a slice of the ocean' with no visable filters and exotic [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What I say by "display" is the tank which has PRIMARY concern: aesthetics. > It simply has to LOOK nice. All my tanks look nice even my feeder fish tanks are decorated my goldfish have castles and stuff live plants and stacked rocks getting nicer everyday but looking good hey, sponge filter or no! > The different story is for example in breeding tanks or grow up tanks... > In such tanks you do not care much about how do they look - what you [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > sponges will feed on unicellular algae in the water preventing the > green water problems you might want to fight withUVC lamp in FO tanks. Was kiddin mate look fair enuf you are curious and thats cool but really I ain't about to go to huge trouble to 'prove' myself to you tomorrow I drain a cichlid tank and begin to setup another 6x2x2 foot marine display. It will take me a while as kinda moved it ahead a few weeks. still start as early as ya can! I will take a lot of pictures, but be patient mate. Things move slow with these things. If you are curious I will be adding some very boring liverock, substrate, water,and filter media from an established marine tank. My lights won't be ready for a bit but planning on hanging a coupla MH from the roof. The tank is in a new position so going to be interesting to see the chiller power I am going to need to keep this girl happy. Aussie summers hey, already getting record highs for Oct. For filtration I am going with an Otto 450G cannister filter and a few powerheads for water movement. I will upgrade as needed. Yep no sponge air filter! But this tank will be surrounded by others with them! With water changes anyone can keep stuff alive.... although big lights are certainly going to help. So sponge filters- ugly, cheap, basic and give ya the additional challenge of solving alt creep problems, frequent cleanings in aquarium water and hiding them behind something :-) so what I say, they work if you can get past that Now if you still feel the need to educate me, go ahead. It's what I'm here for, but realise I am not your average n00b. and I have dickheads feeling me out all day at work trying to figure out if I know my sh.t so it may be hard for me to be polite when it happens from a stranger on the net. brown rice 'n all eh Cindy wrote on 10/15/2006 2:20 AM: > I NEVER had to fight cyanobacteria, > which has been a constant problem for me lately. That's because cyanobacteria does not like higher nitrates. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com > When powered by air the water flows thru the sponge slowly > meaning the bacteria have lots of contact time with the water > in which to fix ammonia and nitrite. Why would we care about their contact time ? Do you suggest that a similar filter with high flow, and "shorter contact time" would be less efficient ? If so, why do you think this way? (let's forget about the clogging factor for a second...) Yes, yes I do. contact time is very important. water blasting thru media too fast will not allow bacteria sufficent time to eat nutrients in the water. Yes mechanical filters work better with higher filter flows and up to a point yes more is removed but then it drops right off. Almost a different topic but matching flow rate on a home made fbf to get the best ammonia/nitrite take up is a fiddly business! An extreme example of contact time is a trickle filter where water is slowed to drips thru biological media. A good example of contact time optimization in commercial filters is the ehiem family of filters. While not as powerful in flowrates as comparable brands the flow has been matched to the media to provide the best contact time to the bacteria. Now all that said, no it's not going to be much of a problem when used as a sort of prefilter on a powerhead up to 1000 lph but after that it's going to be too fast or squashed flat. For that sort of water flow you want a stiffer coarser sponge, most smaller sponge's used with air filters are really really small pored. Get a coarser sponge and it matters not, but then wouldn't you just buy a powerhead pump with attached sponge that a company has already matched to the flowrate? You want good waterflow around L/R if that is your filtration and also to keep corals happy but biological filtration occurs best slowly delicate colonys building on top of each other forming matts of brown crap charming I know should visit a sewrage farm some time will be quite the bacteria eduaction for you! >> When powered by air the water flows thru the sponge slowly >> meaning the bacteria have lots of contact time with the water [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > efficient ? If so, why do you think this way? > (let's forget about the clogging factor for a second...) > Yes, yes I do. > contact time is very important. > water blasting thru media too fast will not allow > bacteria sufficent time to eat nutrients in the water. [...] > but biological filtration occurs best slowly > delicate colonys building on top of each other > forming matts of brown crap > charming I know > should visit a sewrage farm some time > will be quite the bacteria eduaction for you! Sewage farm and aquarium filter have big difference: Sewage is pass through, water passes one time only. Aquarium filter works in closed circuit loop... And this single difference is very important! When you have single pass filter - then yes, you want long contact time for the bacteria to use up all the nutrients from water and leave water pure. When you have closed circuit loop, like in the aquarium, it does not matter really if you put 10 gph through the filter or 100 gph there: if not all nutrients will be removed in the first pass, than you have 10 more chances - the same water passes through the filter several times per hour! I would rather say contact time is NOT important. What is important is that bacteria will have enough oxygen in the whole volume of the filter media... When you restrict flow in quest to get long contact time you can make the last part of the filter lack oxygen and bacteria will not work since nitrification requires a lot of oxygen to consume. On the outlet of the filter with low flow bacteria will starve. We do not want this to happen. We would rather give the filter maximum flow it can handle to make sure bacteria in its whole volume of its filtration media is well fed and oxygenated. >> Yes, yes I do. >> contact time is very important. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > can handle to make sure bacteria in its whole volume > of its filtration media is well fed and oxygenated. each filter is matched to flowrate and no, every sewrage farm is not an open system! infact most are closed too! you have missed the point friend and it's too late and my chicky is too hot too explain now. later tho :) > each filter is matched to flowrate How do you measure flowrate for an air driven filter ? How do you check if you reached the "matching" flow ? Where do you get the optimum flowrate for a given air-driven sponge filter ? Is it something written on the box the sponge comes in ? > and no, every sewrage farm is not an open system! > infact most are closed too! Closed in what sense ? Do you dump raw sewage into the same tank cleaned water is taken out from the system ? Interesting... > you have missed the point friend > and it's too late and my chicky is too hot > too explain now. > later tho > :) There is always another day - sleep well and please explain this when you find some time. >> each filter is matched to flowrate > > How do you measure flowrate for an air driven filter ? Most are dynamic environs which change as cells clog and flow diverts. I imagine it would be quite the equation. Perhaps contact a filter company pr dude? > How do you check if you reached the "matching" flow ? By dosing with ammonia and measuring time taken to convert it all to nitrate > Where do you get the optimum flowrate for a given > air-driven sponge filter ? a veteren can adjust air taps by eye alone to what is working elsewhere > Is it something written on the box the sponge comes in ? yes often it is, however I'm sure a rep can assist you with this as the answer is going to be difficult on paper. you are better practising with them and working out your own optimums. Slighty easier with a few hundred tanks to stuff around with >> and no, every sewrage farm is not an open system! >> infact most are closed too! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cleaned water is taken out from the system ? > Interesting... No friend, you process batches and then dilute. Serious go on a tour, you will get some good ideas. Almost every filter in the hobby was developed from the sewrage industry. Wheels and ugf and all sorts of stuff I can see your interested and I can only say READ READ READ man!! >> you have missed the point friend >> and it's too late and my chicky is too hot too explain now. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There is always another day - sleep well > and please explain this when you find some time. no prob mate, but perhaps a few less broad demands and maybe I will bother explaining anything more than half arsed ? dude have you ever heard of a 90 degree elbow? I think a lot of the industry would be shocked to hear that air powered sponge filters are no good for marine. For fish only they are cheap, easy and last for yonks. For reef where water movement is more important and maybe you'd like less filter bacteria and more live rock life to try drop nitrates. But that only works with low stocking levels. With a tall tank despite usual wisdom saying that it should be a very light stocking due to surface area, I would prob overstock it a bit. Tall tanks need more fish to look good. It means more water changes and more feeding though. A good airpump can run a few filters and the skimmer. Salt creep is pretty easy to take care of, good lids and a wipe or 2 the point I was trying to make is that A marine tank can be set up on any budget. With a powerhead or 2 to give the water movement needed there is no reason sponge air filters cannot be used. Yes maybe you may have to consider filter placement to cut down on salt creep but it's the same nitrate cycle mate. A powerhead pumping water thru a pipe into a bucket of small coral chunks and draining out the bottem into the tank makes an ok filter. Keep in mind that with good liverock and powerhead placement, plus the advantage of strong lights the tank will have other natural forms of bio-filtration occuring. Bio accumulation of nutrients into algae,bacteria mulm or in O2 zeron environs into N2 gas. What is more important than having the latest gear is having good husbandry practises with the tools at hand. Never believe the hype I say, good food, nice clean warm water and regular water changes. If you are going to shoot for the moon, buy your liverock and coral foods and use them. Have a local fish geek design your filter and lights setup. And get on good terms with a good local lfs so you can cherry pick the best liverock out of a big new shipment for your initial stocking of the tank with rock. > Sponge filtering is not a possibility that you want to use with a salt > water aquarium, much less a reef tank. They do however have a lot of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> Cindy Your speech proves your lack of experience with reef tanks. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com swarvegorilla wrote on 10/15/2006 1:09 AM: > ? > dude have you ever heard of a 90 degree elbow? [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >>> >>> Cindy Yes well your speech proves you to be a rude w@nker! get over the experience thing. I have mates who have had reef setups for decades. I have fellow specialist shops I can go chat with. You are probably good at selling certain setups sounds great I keep fish alive and healthy and I do it with whatever I can. experience is not always as important as research and asking questions Who cares how I speak anyway We are fish geeks hey not royalty get over yourself and educate me if you wanna try be all high and mighty!!! > Your speech proves your lack of experience with reef tanks. > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >>>> >>>> Cindy swarvegorilla wrote on 10/10/2006 10:17 AM: > cheap easy and foolproof is popular with me hey Nope, not foolproof in a salt water aquarium. Air lines will clog with minerals, and salt creep will abound on top of the tank. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com > swarvegorilla wrote on 10/10/2006 10:17 AM: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Wayne's Pets > Wayne@WaynesPets.com Thanks for all you replys guys, on another note I just saw the tank in question is 12mm think glass. Does this sound adequate to you? It seems a bit light for me. I found the equation at http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aquariumdiy/a/aa052903DIYcust.htm but cant make any sense of it. > Thanks for all you replys guys, on another note I just saw the tank in > question is 12mm thick glass. Does this sound adequate to you? It seems > a bit light for me. I found the equation at > http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aquariumdiy/a/aa052903DIYcust.htm but > cant make any sense of it. The equation produces a minimum thickness of 17.4825 mm. I find it interesting, since the equation says that the glass for my commercially manufactured 125 gallon should be 11.31mm thick, and it's actually only 9mm. George Patterson All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are permanent. > The equation produces a minimum thickness of 17.4825 mm. I find it interesting, > since the equation says that the glass for my commercially manufactured 125 > gallon should be 11.31mm thick, and it's actually only 9mm. Is it tempered or just float ? > > The equation produces a minimum thickness of 17.4825 mm. I find it interesting, > > since the equation says that the glass for my commercially manufactured 125 > > gallon should be 11.31mm thick, and it's actually only 9mm. > > Is it tempered or just float ? Just good ol regular glass i believe. I believe the author of the calculator has a large safety margin to withstand hard knocks. George, your tank is only 2mm difference my tanks is over 5mm. dont think I want to risk putting 450 litres on my lounge room floor. LOL. Will contact seller, hopfully it's a mistake and he ment to right 15mm think glass. that I can handle. > Is it tempered or just float ? Dunno. I bought it about 15 years ago and don't remember the brand. I was replacing a 20 year old 100 gallon tank made of 1/2" float glass and was mainly delighted with the fact that this larger tank was actually lighter than my old one. George Patterson All successes in conservation are temporary. All defeats are permanent. > swarvegorilla wrote on 10/10/2006 10:17 AM: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Air lines will clog with minerals, and salt creep will abound on top of > the tank. In time yes but nothing a bit of maintence won't fix. there is no problem that can't be worked around and no filter that doesn't have any drawbacks. hang on back increase evap, cannisters are nitrate factorys, trickles are nitrate factorys..... sometimes ya just use whats at hand and cheap and don't be a pussy about it but I digress, I have a lot to learn about reef . I always do like to duplicate great success I have had in tanks with copys using much cheaper and more basic technology people have a tendancy to aim for the best goochie new technology when with good husbandry the requirments can be met with a lot less. :) I ain't havin a dig mate, just had to set up a new rack , most the fish in the tanks are cycling mollies but the filters are sponges eh dam that salt creep swarvegorilla wrote on 10/11/2006 8:27 AM: > In time yes but nothing a bit of maintence won't fix. > there is no problem that can't be worked around and no filter that doesn't > have any drawbacks. But some filters have more drawbacks than others. And who wants to make reef keeping a chore with unnecessary maintenance and fixing. Some of us have been in the hobby a long time, and know what works well, and what doesn't. Wayne Sallee Wayne's Pets Wayne@WaynesPets.com > swarvegorilla wrote on 10/11/2006 8:27 AM: >> In time yes but nothing a bit of maintence won't fix. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Some of us have been in the hobby a long time, and know what works well, > and what doesn't. Once again it depends on the scale and what the customer wants as an end result. For $20 ya could get that tank on the road cycling with air pump and coupla sponge filters. sure once it's filled ya can't drill but if that was never going to happen it'd be a plan the quicker the tank is breeding bacteria and algae the sooner you can throw fish in it. No disrespect to your sumpreme authority on reef mate, but I have kept fish for quite a while now. full blown reef setups are still something that I approach very slowly and with much asking and pilfering of ideas. I have numbers I can call for tricky questions, and mates who can tell me what I'm doing wrong. Pretty much anything else I can throw together easily. It's what I do. The quality/effort/cost triad is something I deal with every day. While fish smith is too lame a term perhaps tank tailor would suit. Tis a shame you are prob on another continent, yank yea? would love to come for a tour, I may type like a tard but I do most my listening with me eyes mate. :) * intenseimagery@gmail.com wrote, On 10/8/2006 5:25 AM: > Hi there > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Cheers thanks for taking the tinme to repspond Dude...that's a very cool tank, but how are you going to work in it? You'll need a stepladder and very long arms. That would be a killer tank to look and marvel at, but an even bigger killer to set up and maintain. I set one up for a client end of last year, which was 6'L X 2.5'W X 4'H using 19mm tempered glass for safety reasons. The aquascaping required me to be in the tank ... ok so I'm only 5'6" but it was a lot quicker with me inside and my mate handing me the LR from the outside. Lighting is 3 pieces of 400W XM 15K and 16 pieces of 96W PC actinics and yet its not as bright as I'd like it to be way at the bottom. So the livestock had to be carefully placed on the rock structure, with mostly shrooms at the bottom. Strictly no SPS corals, the rest were mostly softies and LPS, lots of shrimps, and other inverts like cukes and snails. Maintenance is a big PITA on this tank, especially with algae on the tank walls - you can use magnets to scrape off some of it, but the persistent ones need a blade. And finding a blade with a 3-4' long handle strong enuff not to bend was tough. Sure it looks good, but personally, I'd never get this kinda tank for myself > Hi there > > I'm looking to get back into a marine tank. It's been a while since I > have had one. the last was a bio ball setup which i believe has gone > out of fashion to be replaced by live rocks etc. anyway my question > is.. I'm looking at this tank http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Unique-Custom-4-foot-tall-fish-tank-aquarium-full-set up_W0QQitemZ150044026743QQihZ005QQcategoryZ20755QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > and just wondering if higher rather than wider tanks are still harder > to maintain with the new techniques of fish and invertebrates keeping. > > Cheers thanks for taking the tinme to repspond |
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