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Pet Forum / Aquaria / General / April 2006A few aqua newby questions if someone has time....
1.) Should you vacuum the gravel before your tank begins to cycle? Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle? 2.) Besides water testing, is there a way to tell if your tank is cycling? 3.) How much air should one have going into their tank, and how do you tell. I don't see a cfm or flow rate on the pump boxes. 4.) If I am using an external filter, do I need to add air or does is put in enough, or even any at all? 5.) How often should I change the filter on my external filter? The box says "...reduced water flow" but when do most people change the filter? Also, is it a bad idea to clean and reuse the filter and replace the activated charcoal? 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if it were a problem I should use something other then the coral rather then trying to correct it? But I didn't know if the coral would offset the pH enough to make it something I'd have to monitor or not? (When I say familiar I mean at one time I knew more about pH, pOH, buffering equations, acids & bases then I ever wanted to know but God was great in granting me the ability to forget traumatic periods in our life. And, thankfully, only a few bits of knowledge remain) Thanks for most responses. I have and will continue to read the FAQs on different webs sites. Blanton > 1.) Should you vacuum the gravel before your tank begins to cycle? I don't. > Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle? What do you mean BEFORE it begins to cycle? The cycle starts when you add the first fish. Start partial changes as soon as you see ammonia. Don't let it reach deadly levels. You can also try BioSpira. > 2.) Besides water testing, is there a way to tell if your tank is > cycling? No. > 3.) How much air should one have going into their tank, and how do you > tell. I don't see a cfm or flow rate on the pump boxes. That depends on the filter and fish load. Please Google Aquarium+Beginner. You can read for days.... :-) > 4.) If I am using an external filter, do I need to add air or does is > put in enough, or even any at all? That depends on the filter and fish load. > 5.) How often should I change the filter on my external filter? The > box says "...reduced water flow" but when do most people change the > filter? Also, is it a bad idea to clean and reuse the filter and > replace the activated charcoal? Toss the charcoal, rinse the filter material and reuse if possible - when the tank FINISHES cycling. > 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering > & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if > it were a problem I should use something other then the coral rather > then trying to correct it? But I didn't know if the coral would > offset the pH enough to make it something I'd have to monitor or not? I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you have fish that need hard alkaline water? > (When I say familiar I mean at one time I knew more about pH, pOH, > buffering equations, acids & bases then I ever wanted to know but God [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Blanton  SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> >> Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle? > >What do you mean BEFORE it begins to cycle? The cycle starts when you add >the first fish. Start partial changes as soon as you see ammonia. Don't >let it reach deadly levels. You can also try BioSpira. Pardon. I should have written should I do a partial water change BEFORE the tank reaches equilibrium? >Toss the charcoal, rinse the filter material and reuse if possible - when >the tank FINISHES cycling. My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue but for knowledge. Will the tank quit cycling, or, is it just that the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state? So much to know but I'm trying. >> 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering >> & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I'm not sure what you're asking here. Do you have fish that need hard >alkaline water? I'm using starter fish. Will I need to buy fish tolerant of alkaline water? Is that the main reason to buy the crushed coral? I just wanted something besides the merrily colored stones that most places sell. Something natural looking. Thanks >>> Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state? > So much to know but I'm trying. It'll slow down the cycle, or even restart it. >>> 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering >>> & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > something besides the merrily colored stones that most places sell. > Something natural looking. Coral is only nessesary of you are keeping alkaline-water species that need the high pH, for example some of the African cichlids. Otherwise, don't worry about it. Most freshwater fish will adjust to whatever your local pH is, just be sure to drip them when introducing them to a new tank. For the most part crushed coral is not used with freswater. Gloria >Coral is only nessesary of you are keeping alkaline-water species that need >the high pH, for example some of the African cichlids. Otherwise, don't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Gloria Hi, what do you mean by "drip them"? Thanks "Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts." ~ Aristotle >>Coral is only nessesary of you are keeping alkaline-water species that >>need [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Hi, what do you mean by "drip them"? It's a way of acclimatizing the fish to their new aquarium. If there is a great difference between the water chemistry in their bag, and the water chemistry in their new tank and you tossed them straight in (even if you've floated them) you'll cause the fish to go into shock. There's different ways to drip a fish. What I like to do is open the fish bag and place it inside a jar. I put the jar inside a five gallon bucket on the floor below their new tank. I then run a airline tube from the tank to the open bag. (I usually suck on the end to get the water flowing). Once the water over-flows the jar I empty out about half the water and let it fill up again. It usually takes about 15-20 minutes. When it's done I just pick up the bag and submerge it in the tank and let the fish swim out. Other people net them out totally to keep from adding any 'new' water to the tank. I don't bother since I quarantine all my new fish first, either they're going into a quarantine tank or they've been proven healthy, and letting them swim out of the bag reduces stress. Gloria >>>Coral is only nessesary of you are keeping alkaline-water species that >>>need [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >Gloria Thank you for the answer, now one more question, how would I know if the chemistry is so different as to use this method? Do you test the water in the bag with the new fish? Thanks again. "Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts." ~ Aristotle >>>>Coral is only nessesary of you are keeping alkaline-water species >>>>that [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > water in the bag with the new fish? > Thanks again. Yes, testing the water they originated from ideally, not the water in the bag, though gH and kH would still be accurate. Fishbag pH and ammonia is misleading. The problem is that their respiration (CO2 & ammonia) causes two things to happen. The CO2 (forms carbonic acid) causes the pH to drop. The toxic ammonia (NH3) turns into non-toxic ammonium ions (NH4) in this acidic water. This is an ok equilibrium while they are in the closed bag. The problem starts (and is a concern with the drip method mentioned) when the bag is opened. O2 rushes in, CO2 rushes out, pH rises, ammonium turns into toxic ammonia and the fish suffers from pH shock and ammonia burn, while you slowly drip acclimate them (which is primarily to equalize differences in osmotic pressure from DOCs, TDS, and gH). If you know there is osmotic differences (especially going from hard water to soft water), then the drip method is great, but squirt a little Ammo-lock in there to keep the NH3 neutralized, if it has been a long trip in the bag. hth :o) Signaturewww.NetMax.tk > The problem starts (and is a concern with the drip method mentioned) when > the bag is opened. O2 rushes in, CO2 rushes out, pH rises, ammonium turns > into toxic ammonia and the fish suffers from pH shock and ammonia burn, > while you slowly drip acclimate them (which is primarily to equalize > differences in osmotic pressure from DOCs, TDS, and gH). Wow i bet that is what i did last night with the female betta's, i did not realise that. The bag of water they were in was cold from coming home, i was slowly adding tank water to get them used to it and also as not to take them from cold to warm tank temp water, i had a problem with a couple of them. The black moor..... i had his bag floating in the tank adding water from my tank but not as long because you had posted not to, and i did not have any problems with him, that makes sence, i wish i would have realised that sooner. Nik sorry for cutting in...just realised what happend. >> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question >> and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It'll slow down the cycle, or even restart it. ====================== But if the ammonia reaches high enough levels his fish will die. I do enough water changes in a case like this to keep the ammonia below deadly levels and don't lose any fish - the cycle still completes in due time. I feed fish very lightly during cycling. Little food and feces would be dropping into/on the gravel. I leave the filter untouched. Nowadays I just move a seeded filter to new tanks. At least 99% of the time that prevents cycling. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> >>> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question >>> and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > just move a seeded filter to new tanks. At least 99% of the time that > prevents cycling. But some ammonia is necessary for cycling, if there isn't any in the tank the nitrifying bacteria won't grow and he will have a real problem if he adds more fish. Partial water changes aren't bad if the ammonia gets into the danger range, but it will slow down the time it takes to cycle. As long as the amount of ammonia is within the safe range (.25ppm or less) then a water change shouldn't be necessary. Large water changes when the ammonia level is relatively small might even cause the cycle to restart. Seeding a tank shortens the cycle a great deal, but there still is a small cycle. Whenever I've seeded a tank by using old filter material it's taken about a week or two for everything to fully stabilize. The tank should only be half-stocked during that time IMO. Gloria > "Koi-Lo" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in message >> But if the ammonia reaches high enough levels his fish will die. I do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> just move a seeded filter to new tanks. At least 99% of the time that >> prevents cycling. ====================== > But some ammonia is necessary for cycling, if there isn't any in the tank > the nitrifying bacteria won't grow and he will have a real problem if he > adds more fish. Please read my post again. I didn't say REMOVE all the ammonia - just keep it down to level that doesn't kill the fish. Partial water changes aren't bad if the ammonia gets into > the danger range, but it will slow down the time it takes to cycle. Probably - but don't you value your fish? If you're doing fishless cycling then it doesn't matter. As long > as the amount of ammonia is within the safe range (.25ppm or less) then a > water change shouldn't be necessary. I didn't say it would be. Large water changes when the ammonia > level is relatively small might even cause the cycle to restart. Who mentioned large water changes??? > Seeding a tank shortens the cycle a great deal, but there still is a small > cycle. So small when done *correctly* it hardly matters. Whenever I've seeded a tank by using old filter material it's taken > about a week or two for everything to fully stabilize. The tank should > only be half-stocked during that time IMO. Less than that for the 1st week or two. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> >>>> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a >>>> question [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > water changes when the ammonia level is relatively small might even > cause the cycle to restart. I don't think that is how it works. Bacteria multiply on the presence of ammonia, not the magnitude. I don't think you could do enough water changes to remove all the presence. In a fishless cycle, if the magnitude gets too high it even negatively affects the ability of some bacteria to multiply (though that's just trivia and probably not really relevant to this topic ;~). If you scale this to nature, it makes more sense. In nature (with huge water volumes as compared to an aquarium), it is a tiny amount of ammonia which triggers bacterial growth. Where in nature would you get such an obscenely huge .25ppm of ammonia? Signaturewww.NetMax.tk > Seeding a tank shortens the cycle a great deal, but there still is a > small cycle. Whenever I've seeded a tank by using old filter material > it's taken about a week or two for everything to fully stabilize. The > tank should only be half-stocked during that time IMO. > > Gloria >>>>> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question >>>>> and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > amount of ammonia which triggers bacterial growth. Where in nature would > you get such an obscenely huge .25ppm of ammonia? Max ya get water like that in a lot of our local polluted streams. But then most the fish are on the bank. heh heh >>>>>> My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a >>>>>> question [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > then most the fish are on the bank. > heh heh hmmm, that would be a real 'fishless' cycle then ;~). Signaturewww.NetMax.tk >>> Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Pardon. I should have written should I do a partial water change > BEFORE the tank reaches equilibrium? If you're doing fishless cycling - no. If you have fish in your tank than do enough water changes to keep the ammonia below critical levels. Then watch for nitrites. >>Toss the charcoal, rinse the filter material and reuse if possible - when >>the tank FINISHES cycling. > My pardon again. Nothing nettles me like someone asking me a question > and then arguing the point when I answer. So, I'm asking not to argue > but for knowledge. Will the tank quit cycling, or, is it just that > the cycle becomes established and reaches a steady state? > So much to know but I'm trying. Yes, in time the cycle will finish with or without fish (some people use pure commercial ammonia for fishless cycling). How long that takes can't be foreseen. It depends on too many things, too many variables. Just do enough water changes to keep the levels above what will kill your fish. >>> 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering >>> & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I'm using starter fish. Will I need to buy fish tolerant of alkaline > water? If you plan to have a tank with alkaline water, then it's better to purchase fish that do well in such water. > Is that the main reason to buy the crushed coral? Well you wouldn't want coral in a tank for soft acid water fish. I just wanted > something besides the merrily colored stones that most places sell. > Something natural looking. Home Depot and Lowe's both sell a small brown gravel for something like $3 o $4 per 50 lb bag. It's as small as what you get in the pet shops. It's all natural and very attractive in tanks. Add some river rock for variety in the tank (also sold there). Neither of these effect the PH of the water like coral does. Coral will tend to keep your water alkaline. SignatureKoi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995... Aquariums since 1952 My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~ }<((((o> ~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~ }<(((((o> > 1.) Should you vacuum the gravel before your tank begins to cycle? > Should I do a partial water change before it begins to cycle? 'Cycling' typically refers to the establishment of the aerobic nitrifying bacteria which coat the filter media. This takes about 4 to 6 weeks without bacterial seeding (aged media, or Biospira will accelerate the process). However there are many other bacteria which move into their niches throughout the aquarium. I would not do any filter or gravel cleaning until the main nitrification cycle was complete, but I would feed sparingly and be careful to not allow any excess food to accumulate. You can safely remove axcess food by lightly gravel vaccuming (and you should) as this adds to your bioload, making your ammonia & nitrite spikes higher than they should be (decaying organic matter and fish waste and respiration are all sources of ammonia). > 2.) Besides water testing, is there a way to tell if your tank is > cycling? Yes, some fish will show some symptoms, others will simply die. Generally smaller fish can die so quickly that they don't have much opportunity to show symptoms. Ammonia burn will cause their gills to go bright red. This is generally considered permanent (irreversible) damage. Nitrites can cause flashing (fish scratching themselves against objects). Other stress symptoms are rapid respiration (gilling), loss of color, loss of appetite, nontypical swimming behavior (sitting at the bottom, floating near the surface, wobbling etc). In all cases, it's impossible to correlate toxicity levels from behavior. The behavior is only suitable as a trigger to take action. Many of these symptoms will result in severely weakened fish which are then prone to disease and shorter life expectancies, so their exposure to stress conditions should be minimized. During cycling, you don't need to watch for behavior as you already know there is an issue to be monitored, so water tests are the only reliable method. > 3.) How much air should one have going into their tank, and how do you > tell. I don't see a cfm or flow rate on the pump boxes. None. Aeration increases the O2 level slightly (mostly to the benefit of the fish under high fishload conditions), and breaks up the protein skim at the surface, but it's otherwise a cosmetic addition for us. Airpumps are not rated, as their performance is variable to the depth the air exits, and they degrade with time. It's a very imperfect science. > 4.) If I am using an external filter, do I need to add air or does is > put in enough, or even any at all? Answered above. No air is normally needed. > 5.) How often should I change the filter on my external filter? The > box says "...reduced water flow" but when do most people change the > filter? Also, is it a bad idea to clean and reuse the filter and > replace the activated charcoal? Reduced water flow is a valid indicator. If the flow drops too much the aerobic bacteria die off (water is their oxygen, literally). You don't want to much decaying organic matter trapped in the filter either. If the design allows, it's better to wash the filter media in unchlorinated water, and return it to operation (all the nitrifying bacteria on the filter is preserved). If you need to replace the media, to avoid a mini-cycle, rinse, crush and place the old media with the new media for 3 weeks. > 6.) I used crushed coral for a substrate. I'm familiar with buffering > & pH but I'm guessing that I don't need to worry about the pH, and if [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > was great in granting me the ability to forget traumatic periods in > our life. And, thankfully, only a few bits of knowledge remain) LOL. Without knowing what fish you want and your exact gH, kH and pH levels, it's not possible to comment intelligently. Bad pH for one application is good pH for another. Generally, you should match your fish to your natural source water conditions as measured after airing for 24 hours. Acclimation should be done with an understanding of the source water they are coming from (LFS) ....and, it's very unusual and imprudent to chemically mess with your water parameters unless absolutely neccesary. Fish are quite adaptable to clean water, so regular water changes and proper maintenance will do more for you than any chemicals on the market (and I'm speaking with some experience on this point, from residential fish husbandry of over 30 years, and from working in the trade, but as always, jmo ;~). ps: you'll find rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc better travelled that this newsgroup, for a greater diversity of answers, and better response time. cheers Signaturewww.NetMax.tk > Thanks for most responses. > I have and will continue to read the FAQs on different webs sites. > > Blanton "NetMax" You put a lot back into the hobby mate!! Try ta follow your lead hey but max respec' to ya anyway. Prob saving more aquarium fish from death than..... well I can't think of anyone else. good work dude! > "NetMax" > You put a lot back into the hobby mate!! > Try ta follow your lead hey but max respec' to ya anyway. > Prob saving more aquarium fish from death than..... well I can't > think of anyone else. > good work dude! Thanks, nothing wrong with your answers either! Signaturewww.NetMax.tk Apparently the gin kicked in during question 6. |
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