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Pet Forum / Aquaria / General / June 2004



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White Mollies

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Cardman - 04 Jun 2004 18:38 GMT
Just a quick question...

How many young fry should a fully grown White Mollie have on average
at any one time?

When I first got my Mollies, then not long following they had three
known live fry, who are now adults themselves. A few weeks later one
more young fry was given birth to.

Following this time I have changed my aquarium water from very hard
water to soft water. I have added a few more plants, where most of all
I have been feeding these fish a good supply of freeze-dried
Bloodworms and Tubliflex worms. And even a few live White Worms in the
past couple of weeks.

The Nitrate levels are still high, but my algae free aquarium means
that this is hardly a problem.

Since my first three fry are now adults, then I have been expecting
yet another White Mollie birth for a while. However, this one has
certainly taken me by surprise.

As another member of my family feeds them during the day, then I was
pleased when she reported that there was about a dozen new young fry
in my community aquarium.

And of course she wanted me to come save them from being eaten. Even
though I wonder if any of my current fish actually would.

So for the next hour I played catch the young fry in the net and to
transport them to the breeding trap. This is easy enough, when they
have not learned to run away yet and they almost always head towards
the light.

It soon became clear that there were more than a dozen young fry here,
where more and more kept popping up all over the aquarium.

Makes me wish that I had counted them as a caught them, but I would
say that it is a good guess that there is currently between 40 and 50
young White Mollie fry in my breeding trap.

That to me seems like rather a lot for these fish who give birth to
live fry. As the first birth was three, the second birth one, where
after all this good water and feeding I was expecting around a dozen.

And so 40 to 50 fry seems like more than what any one fish should
have. Since I have other females, then it may be possible that this is
a multiple birth, but that to me also seems unlikely.

So that poses my question of how many fry should an adult White Mollie
give birth to?

Still, it seems clear to me that at least one other White Mollie
female is close to having some fry as well.

Since all these young fry already make my breeding trap look crowded,
then they will soon have to have their own aquarium. However, since
even my larger 30 gallon aquarium won't be big enough for 40 to 50
White Mollie adults, then my LFS will be offered some White Mollies
just as soon as they reach teenage size.

This event is both pleasing and concerning, when these fish are
starting to breed faster than rabbits. Oh well should anyone in
England desire some very healthy young White Mollies in a couple of
months from now, then just let me know.

Now if only my more interesting fish would breed...

Cardman.
Dave Painter - 07 Jun 2004 21:13 GMT
> Just a quick question...
>
> How many young fry should a fully grown White Mollie have on average
> at any one time?

Up to 70!

You probably had more fry the first and second time, but lost a considerable
number.
One of my mollies had about forty fry, all still born.
Next month about twenty, most survived.

Stress, age of the fish, number of previous successful pregnancies,
overcrowding (even in clean water)
dirty water, harassment from randy father....

These are all reasons why fry can be down in number,
or at least they are IME

Try increasing the amount of plant you have on the water surface for the fry
to hide in/under.

HTH

Dave
Cardman - 07 Jun 2004 23:08 GMT
>> Just a quick question...
>>
>> How many young fry should a fully grown White Mollie have on average
>> at any one time?
>
>Up to 70!

Well that is quite a lot. One day soon I should really count these
young fry one by one and find out how many there really are.

Still, my 40 to 50 estimate is close enough, but I will keep in mind
that even more could be produced in the future.

>You probably had more fry the first and second time, but lost a considerable
>number.

I am not so sure.

When I first got these White Mollies, then the original three I had
contained no males at all. So it was a surprise when one of these
females soon after gave birth to three more.

What I mean is that these fish being fresh from the LFS (and a not
very good one at that) means that they would have been under
considerable stress during this pregnancy.

Also since my Angel Fish and one of these White Mollies soon died of
White Spot disease (over a weekend), that these very White Mollies
arrived with, then the fish that are left are not really of the
aggressive kind.

So with these fry being out in the open, then the other fish,
including the adult White Mollies, tend to leave them alone.

My plant cover on the surface I guess is about 25% these days, which
is more than the previous zero, but I have certainly never seen any of
my fish go fry hunting.

>One of my mollies had about forty fry, all still born.
>Next month about twenty, most survived.

That is a shame, but even twenty is quite a lot.

Since my second younger female White Mollie is clearly pregnant, then
I have now moved her into my second aquarium away from the other White
Mollies.

As this second aquarium only contains 3 Banded Wood Plecos, 3 Chinese
Algae Eaters, 2 Gold Barb and 5 Red-Eyed Tetras, then these smaller
more peaceful fish should leave her fry alone.

Considering the number of fry that I now have, then I will release
them into this aquarium once my breeding trap starts to look full. As
that will allow them space to grow in size before I mix them in with
the larger fish including adult White Mollies.

No real problems with these fish attacking my fry. When the only
problem was caused by my largest female White Mollie, who in one
unusual phaze seemed annoyed with all other fish and would try to
attack anything that came too close. As this was usually other White
Mollies, then these younger White Mollies soon learned to dive out of
her way.

This largest female White Mollie seems to have settled down a great
deal these days, now that her male son is constantly chasing her. I am
just wondering what is going to happen once my former youngest male
White Mollie will very soon become an adult as well.

So my White Mollie population until recently consisted of five females
and two males.

In fact that reminds me. As for a long time I have been puzzled about
the fact that while most of these fry are white, then some of them are
clearly of a much darker colour.

As these darker fry when turning into adults take on an unusual gray
colour, then it is my theory that you can tell the gender of these day
old fry by if their insides are white or the dark colour.

I guess that I could separate these fry into two groups in order to
prove this theory once and for all, but for a long time I was puzzled
as to how white fish had the occasional almost black fry.

>Stress, age of the fish, number of previous successful pregnancies,
>overcrowding (even in clean water) dirty water, harassment from randy
>father....

My adult male does harass the females somewhat. Still, as this is
mostly my oldest and largest female, who is about 50% larger than him,
then this is not too much of a problem.

>These are all reasons why fry can be down in number,
>or at least they are IME

I am sure that my fish fresh from the LFS, my only flake food feeding,
my former extra hard water, a pH of 7.8, with no surface cover, played
a large part. Also this female during her previous pregnancies was of
a younger and smaller size herself.

>Try increasing the amount of plant you have on the water surface for the fry
>to hide in/under.

I will do. Not that I really desire a Mollie population within the
hundreds, but I don't see not saving the young, or separating the
males and females a viable option.

Oh well I am sure my LFS would desire some free fish, even though I
believe I should be charging them at least some nominal fee in order
to cover the cost of my expensive feeding.

Thanks for the information, when now I know what my White Mollie birth
is not in any way unusual.

Cardman.
Dave Painter - 08 Jun 2004 18:34 GMT
> Oh well I am sure my LFS would desire some free fish, even though I
> believe I should be charging them at least some nominal fee in order
> to cover the cost of my expensive feeding.

I check with my LFS BEFORE I take him any fish so he has time to ensure an
empty tank
is ready and waiting for them.
He offers cash (at about 40% retail) or credit/goods (closer to 70%), he
likes locally tank bred fish
because they are fairly easy to sell on as being suitable for 'our' water
supply.

Ask for a discount against a largish purchase.

Costs nothing to ask.

Dave
Cardman - 08 Jun 2004 22:34 GMT
>I check with my LFS BEFORE I take him any fish so he has time to ensure an
>empty tank is ready and waiting for them.

Obviously that is always a good idea.

>He offers cash (at about 40% retail) or credit/goods (closer to 70%),

I guess that I would not mind trade for other items, when I am
currently in need of a few things.

>he likes locally tank bred fish because they are fairly easy to sell on as
>being suitable for 'our' water supply.

And there I was on both Saturday and Sunday spending about a total of
12 hours just processing all the water for my new aquarium. As my
local water supply is very hard with a pH of 7.8. Where I change this
to the start of very soft water with a pH of 7.0.

Damned lime scale (calcium carbonate) can easily be removed by first
boiling the water and then filtering it. Since it also makes better
cups of tea, then it is like "one for me and 600 for the fish". :-)

So my water is nothing like the local water supply. When my fish do a
lot better in my post-processed water. Not that they cannot survive in
the local water supply of course.

>Ask for a discount against a largish purchase.

I am sure that I can work out something. Just need to wait a couple of
months for these few day old fish to become a reasonable size.

>Costs nothing to ask.

Too true.

Cardman.
Dave Painter - 10 Jun 2004 23:27 GMT
<snipped>

> >He offers cash (at about 40% retail) or credit/goods (closer to 70%),
>
> I guess that I would not mind trade for other items, when I am
> currently in need of a few things.

I always need food and chlorine remover.

> >he likes locally tank bred fish because they are fairly easy to sell on as
> >being suitable for 'our' water supply.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> local water supply is very hard with a pH of 7.8. Where I change this
> to the start of very soft water with a pH of 7.0.

I too live in a hard water area, but do nothing to change it. Just take the
chlorine out.
But then I have mostly livebearers who appreciate a little lime in their
water.

> I am sure that I can work out something. Just need to wait a couple of
> months for these few day old fish to become a reasonable size.

Ask about that too!
My LFS takes week old fish (very small, because some people like to grow
them on)
Month old fish of a 'decent' size
and yearlings who are 'fully' grown, especially when they are at the top end
of the growth
range.
Obviously the bigger and better formed they more they retail at so the more
credit I get.

Dave
Cardman - 11 Jun 2004 09:43 GMT
>> I guess that I would not mind trade for other items, when I am
>> currently in need of a few things.
>
>I always need food and chlorine remover.

By your mention of chlorine I guess that you are in the US. Thankfully
my own water supply company does not add chlorine due to adverse
customer reactions.

My White Mollies eat a lot of food. That is why I always keep spare
food handy.

I mostly need extra equipment to get my second aquarium fully
operational, where a hood and light are top of this list. Followed by
a section of tubing and a power head. And a second air pump and
external filter would finish it off.

>I too live in a hard water area, but do nothing to change it. Just take the
>chlorine out.

My water ranks in the very hard rating of about 23. Where by spending
hours removing all the calcium carbonate reduces this to the upper end
of very soft water and I get a neutral pH as a bonus.

I already know that my White Mollies like things a little hard with a
higher pH value, but this latest 68 fish birth highlights that they
are doing very well in this water.

So my theory is that a pH of 7.0 and soft water is a fine medium for
just about all. As you cannot beat pure water, or at least my
approximation of it.

My former very hard water has many disadvantages, when this hard water
harms fish growth, plant growth and reproduction.

One thing for sure is that this soft water with neutral pH value
allows me to support a greater array of plant types. And that is why I
spend a few hours each week boiling and filtering a whole load of
water.

>But then I have mostly livebearers who appreciate a little lime in their
>water.

I can understand that. I have various fish who like different
conditions, but even my Mollies do well in this soft water.

>> I am sure that I can work out something. Just need to wait a couple of
>> months for these few day old fish to become a reasonable size.
>
>Ask about that too!

I would prefer to wait. They are still very young and I can grow them
to a reasonable size no problem.

My White Mollie fry were a little slow and just wandering about
before. But recently they have been moving about faster. And now they
even dive down from the surface when I open the lid.

They are starting to expand in size very nicely as well.

>My LFS takes week old fish (very small, because some people like to grow
>them on)

Mostly they do not realise that they are extra young. And are soon
impressed by how large they have grown. :-)

>Month old fish of a 'decent' size
>and yearlings who are 'fully' grown, especially when they are at the top end
>of the growth range.

I prefer to grow them to at least teenage size. When for example the
males then show off their rainbow colours at this age. I would prefer
to sell them before they reproduce again though.

>Obviously the bigger and better formed they more they retail at so the more
>credit I get.

Alas live bearing fish are the cheaper kind. I think that I paid
somewhere around 2.50 GBP each, but I will calculate for 1.85 GBP.

So a 40% fee on 1.85 GBP would be 0.74 GBP. And that times 67 fish
would make a total of 29.60 GBP. I would hope for an extra discount on
equipment, but not everyone would follow that same idea.

One thing for sure is that 67 mollies of a medium size would sure take
up quite a lot of their aquarium space.

With my fish I could certainly produce many more young mollies in the
future, but I wish that I could breed some rare fish. As those I could
sell for lots of money. :-)

Oh well these White Mollies are a nice looking fish, which means that
they should sell well.

Cardman.
Cardman - 08 Jun 2004 00:40 GMT
>> Just a quick question...
>>
>> How many young fry should a fully grown White Mollie have on average
>> at any one time?
>
>Up to 70!

Well in case you are interested, then I decided to count how many
young White Mollies there exactly are. And so I caught these young fry
in my smaller net. Transferred them into a small jug, where I could
count them. Before I then transferred them to a larger holding jug.

And as it turns out my 40 to 50 estimate was wrong. As following a
count I can say that there are exactly 68 White Mollie Fry. That is
very close to your "up to 70" comment, where maybe even next time this
female could break this total.

I believe that goes to highlight my much better water conditions and
the results of all this good expensive feeding. And at least I can now
mix some White Worms into this feeding to help reduce the cost. That
is if they have not all died in this heat wave of course.

Unfortunately, I am now down to 67 White Mollie fry. When one tried to
escape during this counting and died in the process.

Anyway, as this second female will soon "pop her load", then we will
see if this White Mollie fry can exceed 100 in total. And this time I
will make sure I count them as they are first caught.

Considering that my previous fish births have all been in the region
of one to three, then currently having 67 of them is a new thing for
me.

Although having an aquarium full of a total of 74 White Mollies plus
whatever this second birth brings has some appeal, but these are
clearly too many for even my larger 30 gallon aquarium.

Cardman.
Cardman - 29 Jun 2004 20:00 GMT
<Snip>

Well I can now report that my second female White Mollie has just
given birth. And that this has caused quite some changes around in my
two aquariums.

First of all I thought that I would that I would catch these young fry
and transfer them to the same breeding trap that contains my previous
67 White Mollie fry, now about 25 days old.

This I soon came to realise was not the best idea, when these 25 day
old fry, thanks to my generous feeding, where now over twice the size
to these recently born fry.

Not to mention that one of these fry has always been twice the size of
the other ones. Just a lucky one getting more space in the fishy womb
I guess, but that makes it four times the size of these new fry.

They older fry have now lost their fry colours and they have all
(including the black ones) turned the White colour that gives them
their White Mollie name.

Since these new fry were acting very nervous towards these older fry,
then so did I decide to first catch all these new fry, followed by
releasing the older fry early into the aquarium. Therefore these young
fry would have the breeding trap all to themselves.

Before this could happen I moved my adult White Mollie female back
into my second aquarium with the other adult White Mollies.

Soon after I caught a total of 34 new fry and placed them into the
trap, where these new fry were now swimming about with the older fry
and mostly trying to stay out of their way.

I then began catching the older fry and putting them into the
aquarium. Since my Gold Barb were showing a large interest in these
fry, then so as a precaution I moved these Gold Barb into my second
aquarium.

As one of these Gold Barb could also be pregnant, then I had lacked
the desire to move these in with the larger fish, but better that than
the chance that these Barb could eat my older White Mollie fry.

Catching all these old fry in the trap and moving them into the main
aquarium posed a bit of a problem. When these older fry now try
avoiding the Net meaning that I had to be quick in catching them.

Once I a while I caught one of the new fry, but it was easy enough to
release them back into the trap. When the older fry swam towards the
bottom of the net and the younger fry the top.

After moving most of the older fry into the aquarium, then I noticed
that a couple of the new fry had been killed. This could have been by
the older fry, or maybe I had squashed them with the Net,

Since just before noticing these new fry I had fed these older fry
some freeze dried blood worms, then new fry and bloodworms I guess do
not look that much unalike.

Once all the older fry had been released, then I counted the number of
new fry dead on the bottom of the breeding trap and this total came in
at three.

Also following my release of the older fry I spotted and caught number
35 newly born fry. And with 3 dead out of 35, then the total was 32
fry now in the breeding trap.

And as my previous fry numbered 67 (following the death of number 68),
then 67 plus 32 equals 99 Mollie Fry.

Then I noticed that one of the three Mollie Fry that I had believed
dead was now flapping its fins. And after giving it a poke (without
actually touching it), then so did it swim about 3 cm away and settle
down on the bottom of the breeding trap.

Since this young fry later swim into another corner, then fry number
100 was still alive, even though it did not look too healthy. So I
will be keeping an eye on that one to see if I end up with 99 or 100
White Mollie fry in total.

I guess from this situation I really need to get a second breeding
trap, but keeping fish is always a learning process. I has thought
that mixing these two births together would be fine, but I was not to
know that this pregnant looking female that I had removed from the
others, when I got my second aquarium up and running, was only to give
birth about 3 weeks following.

A long birth in my view. I had even questioned if she was really
pregnant or not, when these fish also get fat. And if I should move
her back in the other aquarium or not.

No doubt I will spot a few more stray new fry over the next couple of
days, when these is always the odd one that you miss. So even if
number 100 soon die, then there could be a replacement.

Provided that my older fry do not hunt them down of course.

Seeing these older 67 White Mollie fry swim all over this aquarium is
quite a sight, when these go simply everywhere. The biggest risk to
them are the Red-eyed Tetras, but since they seem more afraid of them
(remembering their larger family members), then these Fry should be
fine when these Tetras seem more intent on removing each other scales.

This aquarium also contains my three Banded Wood Plecos and two of my
Chinese Algae Eaters. And well since my Plecos eat wood and plants and
the other algae and plants, then they should pose no risk.

Anyway, at this time my two original White Mollies soon expanded to 7
White Mollies, where these two new births is the result of a new male
reaching adult age.

My better water, feeding and plant cover is responsible for these
larger births (this second birth is the first for this female), which
makes my Mollie population currently 107.

You can imagine what things would be like once these fry reach adult
stage and start breeding. As if three quarters of these fry are
females, then and average of 40 fry per female would make a total of
3200 fry being born.

Fortunately, it is my plan to sell these 100 fry to my LFS just as
soon as they start getting their adult markings. As then I will only
have to deal with my 5 adult females and the 2 adult males.

Anyway, I thought that you may be interested in my White Mollies
breeding faster than very horny rabbits on viagra.

Cardman.
 
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