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Pet Forum / Aquaria / General / February 2005CO2 or not
My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. But from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not. The plants get fairly "manky" coz I get a lot of algae...the tank in question is in a well lit room...but the fish are happy and I feel to a certain degree this all adds to the bio balance of the tank...I keep the front and sides clear so I can see my "babies".... They also suggested Black Mollies but I don't want to add any more fish...the tank has enough in there as is... What do you all think???? > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. But > from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fish...the tank has enough in there as is... > What do you all think???? Well you could make up a one bottle DIY CO2 and see how it goes. There are lots of articles on the web about how to do it. If it doesn't work then you can yank it later. You don't say how big the tank is - of course over 100L you'll need more than one bottle to get the CO2 levels up. All the best, Oz > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. > But [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > fish...the tank has enough in there as is... > What do you all think???? CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a steady and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of the water and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory of what you will be doing). The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until the plants reach another constraint (some nutrient in the water it ran out of). Now algae has a field day with the remaining plant food. CO2 pushes the tank's equilibrium closer to an edge (which can be quite fun to live in as you should see the plants go), but it's not without its own eccentricies and characteristics (lowers your pH, cyclical with your single bottle delivery system, may be excessive at night when plants are also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats... etc etc. The use of CO2 is also influenced by your current water parameters. If your kH is lower than 2dkH, CO2 is quite risky. If your pH/gH/kH is quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to slow it's global warming ;~).  Signaturewww.NetMax.tk > CO2 is plant food and algae are plants. The theory is that given a steady > and abundant food supply, plants will strip the nutrients out of the water > and starve the algae (it is important to understand the theory of what you > will be doing). I can vouch for this theory working for real ;) I did my weekly maintainence today, including a cleaning of all the heaters, impellers, filter casings, tubes and glass and the algae reduction was impressive! The plants are fed, macro nutrients via slow release, in the substrate, and micro nutrients weekly with the water change via liquid in the water column. I expected a real green attack, or worse green water, when I started doing this two weeks ago, but the results are just outstanding - the tank seems to have stabalised and every single plant pearls every day, and a couple of them (Asian Ambula and Hygrophilia polysperma) grow at least 1cm per day. All new growth is abundant and green. My Blue Stricta "forrest" is really filling out and all of these plant's new leaves are large and bushy - so much so, I think I am going to have to prune them - I wouldn't have ventured to say this when diatoms covered all the leaves a while back and I had to prune them hard. Even the plant I've had the least sucess with - Corscrew Val., has shot runners off from both plants, so if I'm not careful I'm going to have and abundance of Val. soon ;) This is great stuff!!! Their recovery is outstanding and I feel it's more tailored to my tank now and not to some emmersive culturing plant place, where they grow in sunlight in almost hydroponic solutions. The swords have a great time pecking the new leaves of anything that grows on them. You're dead right; it's balancing act, and an understanding of the relationship of a few things, but once you get a handle on it, apart from bringing a sense of satisfaction because the tank is doing well, it's something well worth knowing. Something interesting has happend to the Banana Lilies though - they have slowed right down. They used to grow like wild fire and I had to trim their surface leaves regularly to allow light through to the bottom of the tank. They now shoot occasionally - perhaps they have run their bananas out of nutrient? - they did get quite damaged by the diatoms. They are cheaper than other plants any how, so if they lose it then it's not really a problem. I've manged to cultivate two smaller plants from them, but they don't have bananas, just nice white roots ;) The green algae that was threatening is still there but in much reduced levels this week, and it's mainly confined to two rocks, where the 4 SAE's, Mystery Snail and 2 Swords have a little munch when they get on the rocks. So it appears that all this advice about plants out competing algae is actually right ;) I can't tell you how thrilled I am with this lush plant growth and receding algae. There isn't a ditaom in sight either and it looks as though I may have hit a balance of flora and fauna for now. Of course one little thing could change everything, but for now it's all seemingly in a reasonable balance. I am not sure that the liquid fertilizer is quite right, so I may hunt around for one with a different balance of nutrients (less phosphate (reduced fish feed?) and more iron). > The theory works, but not always, and there are too many environment > variables to be able to predict its effect. For example, it works until [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > also producing CO2, prone to various 'incidents' especially with cats... > etc etc. I have been pondering this single bottle issue and I think I may have a solution: Instead of a single 2L bottle - use two 1.25L bottles on a T-Connector. Each bottle has 1 cup of sugar, 1/2 tsp of yeast and 1/2 tsp of baking soda. The bottles can be cycled in a smaller tank this way, without huge pH/carbonic acid swings and you ultimately would have more control over the mixtures and the CO2 system as a whole. Oz > Instead of a single 2L bottle - use two 1.25L bottles on a T-Connector. > Each bottle has 1 cup of sugar, 1/2 tsp of yeast and 1/2 tsp of baking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Oz If they are available, try what I use plastic .... 1-gallon US juice jugs, they run for weeks. The cat can't tip them over. Bob > > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. > > But [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > quite high, blowing CO2 in there is like dropping ice in the ocean to > slow it's global warming ;~). Thanks for the update. Current pH is 7.5 but Nitrates are pretty low being just under 5 mg/L - which might be part of the problem (doh). Don't know the other parameters but our water here is very hard (can tell by looking in the kettle). Tank is approx 47.5 UK gallons. What do you think of upping the plant food instead? - I tend to forget this part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially as gardening is my other hobby.... >>>My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. >>>But [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > part with the usual tank maintenance and feel really silly especially as > gardening is my other hobby.... I'd look at adding K (potash), iron, and possibly trace elements along with the Flourish Excel. You already have some nitrate in the water, and probably plenty of phosphate. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > >>>My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. > >>>But [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > with the Flourish Excel. You already have some nitrate in the water, > and probably plenty of phosphate. After reading everyones suggestions I added some Nutrafin Plant Gro tonight - it came with the tank. I already replaced most of the plants this weekend so here's hoping. As I think we have all agreed, I don't think the fish suffer but it isn't pretty to look at. I'll look into sourcing the Flourish Excel. Thanks for the advice...I'll keep you posted... >> > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my >> > tank. [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > as > gardening is my other hobby.... If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a variety of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational problem. It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which feed newborn fish :o). Signaturewww.NetMax.tk > If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a variety > of algae eaters. Keep in mind the algae is not an operational problem. > It is removing ammonia, nitrates etc, gives many fish something to nibble > on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which feed > newborn fish :o). Agreed. My view on green algae is that some is okay for the reasons cited above. It does look good and it's actually a sign of a healthy biotope as well. If it gets out of control though it's almost a nightmare from hell ;) It's all about balance ulimately. Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > >> > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my > >> > tank. [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > to nibble on, and provides a home for a variety of micro-organisms which > feed newborn fish :o). So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big - I'll have to move something anyway to get them in. The problem is more that I have to keep buying new plants than the algae itself - in some ways it is a good thing as it is helping to keep the tank balanced. Already have had a Platy fry survive on what he could get naturally : -). I got some big leafed stuff this weekend to see if these fare better - the smaller stuff was just getting tangled in the algae and ending up as a clump one end of the tank - the fish seem to be appreciating the additional open space. Gill > "NetMax" <computeralias@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with > this. I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your tank may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple bottles to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2 and wiping out your fish population if you aren't careful. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in > there. Another consideration is that I don't want anything too big - I'll > have to move something anyway to get them in. But you need algae eaters in your tank even if you are injecting CO2 as the algae doesn't magically disappear without mechanical removal which the right fish provide. Get a few Otocinclus, or better, Siamese algae eaters. The SAEs solved my algae problem over a couple of weeks. I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2. Nikki > > "NetMax" <computeralias@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >>If your water is hard then algae control might best be done with a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Nikki Hi Nikki, Your water quality must be quite close to mine I guess - I live in Reading. I think I prefer the idea of trying to tackle this naturally with fish rather than adding more variables into the tank (ie. CO2) - going off to research the fish and see what will suit. Thanks Gill >>>"NetMax" <computeralias@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > rather than adding more variables into the tank (ie. CO2) - going off to > research the fish and see what will suit. How did the tank in the conservatory cope with that heat wave in 2003?? BTW, I just ordered some of that Flourish Excel fertiliser from http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/. I may give it a try in a spare tank when I find the time as I'm curious about it. Nikki > >>>"NetMax" <computeralias@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >>> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Nikki Didn't have the tank then....but since 2003 we've made some changes in there so it doesn't get too hot... > I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if > there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your tank > may rule out DIY CO2, unless you want to start combining multiple bottles > to provide enough. There's always a danger of over-dosing CO2 and wiping > out your fish population if you aren't careful. Is it hard from the pH reading or hard from GH and KH readings? You can actually have high pH and soft water. The GH and especially KH determine the effectiveness of CO2 (carbonic acid)effect on the water. I really high KH will buffer the water so effectively that nothing can shift it, or the pH. The water here in Sydney, Australia, has gone through a phase like this previously and it's going through one right now, because of the sources switching frequently (still in drought unfortunatly). For instance when the KH in my tank was 5dKH a few weeks ago I was at pH 6.8 and getting 15ppm CO2. This week, however, it's more like pH 7.2 and KH of 7dKH with exactly the same CO2 bubble rate and reactor. - The water is more buffered, so the CO2 drops. It's a relationship, that once you get a grip of the factors, makes perfect sense. I think this is what NetMax was intimating when said his tanks are "liquid rock" ;) > But you need algae eaters in your tank even if you are injecting CO2 as > the algae doesn't magically disappear without mechanical removal which the > right fish provide. Get a few Otocinclus, or better, Siamese algae eaters. > The SAEs solved my algae problem over a couple of weeks. This is part of "the balance" I quite often go on about. I have 4 SAE's, 2 Swordtails and a large snail and a medium amount of plants, but I still have some green algae. It's deliberately left there, but I get the impression it's actually not doing too well. The SAE's only spot remove the stuff. The Snail seems more intent on eating brine shrimp excess on the substrate and the Swordtails take care of new leaves which have anything on them. I am off to buy some algae wafer food for the posse today actually because I think I have the balance too far the other way now. What I am getting at, is that a certain balance can be achieved using plants and algae eating creatures. This is obtained at the human/macro level by balancing nutrient amount and compostion, lighting intensity, spectrum and period, and to a certain extent, what you actually place in the tank. The natural balance comes after the macro stage, and even then mechanical removal of some of it is still needed. SAE's and Snails don't excuse any of us from glass scraping and gravel vaccing ;) Well not me at any rate. Besides, I like getting my hands into the water and doing the gardening and cleaning, and as an added bonus I can "feel" the KH of the water ;) > I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2. Agreed - especially SAEs if you can get them - Crosselius siamensis only though. Great little fish - much, much better than those dreadful look-alikes The Chinese Algae Eater ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith >>I've got very hard London water, 340 mg/L. I inject CO2. I'm not sure if >>there's a reason why hard water would rule out CO2. The size of your tank [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is it hard from the pH reading or hard from GH and KH readings? Without CO2 additions, the pH is 8.1 in a stocked tank. Goes up to 8.3 without fish and plants. The GH is 340 mg/L. The KH is 220 mg/L. > You can actually have high pH and soft water. The GH and especially KH > determine the effectiveness of CO2 (carbonic acid)effect on the water. I > really high KH will buffer the water so effectively that nothing can shift > it, or the pH. I get my tanks down to pH 7.25 with no problems with compressed CO2 cylinder. It's about 90 bubbles per minute in my 330L. I keep hearing about end of tank dumps so I got myself a couple of pH controllers. The bubble rate seems to be proportional to the room temperature. Slow in the morning, faster in the evening. The controller keeps check on that. > The water here in Sydney, Australia, has gone through a phase like this > previously and it's going through one right now, because of the sources [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the same CO2 bubble rate and reactor. - The water is more buffered, so the > CO2 drops. Who tells you when the water switches? That could prove deadly to the fish if you're controlling the pH through a pH controller. > It's a relationship, that once you get a grip of the factors, makes perfect > sense. The pH/KH/CO2 relationship? Yes. > I think this is what NetMax was intimating when said his tanks are "liquid > rock" ;) 340 mg/L Total Hardness, I suppose there's still a bit to go before Liquid Rock status. Maybe not. > This is part of "the balance" I quite often go on about. I have 4 SAE's, 2 > Swordtails and a large snail and a medium amount of plants, but I still have > some green algae. It's deliberately left there, but I get the impression > it's actually not doing too well. That's so cruel. Poking fun at that algae. You turn your back and before you know it... > The SAE's only spot remove the stuff. I think my SAE removed that one BIG spot in my aquarium. > I am off to buy some algae wafer food for the posse today actually because I > think I have the balance too far the other way now. Ever few days I drop in a leaf of Romaine lettuce. The Ancistrus love the stuff, although it's usually only the big Ancistrus who really gets to eat it, the bully he is. It's shuffle, shuffle and whack with the tail, "Mine!" > What I am getting at, is that a certain balance can be achieved using plants > and algae eating creatures. This is obtained at the human/macro level by > balancing nutrient amount and compostion, lighting intensity, spectrum and > period, and to a certain extent, what you actually place in the tank. The > natural balance comes after the macro stage, and even then mechanical > removal of some of it is still needed. Ooh, I'm going all cross-eyed. :-) > SAE's and Snails don't excuse any of us from glass scraping and gravel > vaccing ;) Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp: http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg > I can "feel" the KH of the water ;) I bet that takes some practice! >>I'd start with the algae eating fish before considering CO2. > > Agreed - especially SAEs if you can get them - Crosselius siamensis only > though. Great little fish - much, much better than those dreadful > look-alikes The Chinese Algae Eater ;) I don't believe there's a substitute for SAE. Maybe a few dozen Amano shrimp? Do they eat BBA? Nikki <snip> > Glass scraping, yes, but vacuuming? No room to vacuum in my swamp: > http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/330L-23-02-2005.jpg Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords. I just took a shot of mine last night. http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow into that jungle kinda look. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the > contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords. Aquascaping, what's that? You'd have to hypnotise me and ask my subconscious creativity. Anything artistically pleasing is purely accidental. I deny all responsibility, I tell ya, lol! > I just took a shot of mine last night. > http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow > into that jungle kinda look. That makes a great photo for advertising 5 gallon hex tanks. A slice of paradise. Shame it's too small for scuba diving! I'll have to experiment with a 13L tank I've got hanging around. Nikki > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Nikki Looking at your tanks I think more plants is a must this weekend!!!! >>><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Looking at your tanks I think more plants is a must this weekend!!!! *grin* If you can find an open patch of gravel, there's room for another plant! I have no problem algae in mine (knock wood) - just a bit on the glass and rocks. As I said, I think the Flourish Excel is helping and it has made a definate difference in growth. You might want to look for some easy fast growers like hygro, hornwort, water wisteria (put it in a bright spot), or Rotala rotundifolia. Grasses like valisneria or saggitaria are also good. They'll use up the nitrates and grow fast enough to keep from getting covered with algae. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Nikki Thanks! Small tanks are fun because something like a medium sized crypt can become a centerpiece. There's a 2 gallon cube tank in LFS and it is an absolute lush jungle with only a handful of plants. I'm SO tempted to get one of these little tanks and replace my 2 gallon hex. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wow, Nikki! Your tank looks gorgeous! I love the aquascaping and the > contrast of the purple crypts against the bright green swords. Nikki, the plant on the foreground left with the round leaves - is that Cardamine? If it si how old is it? I got something similar yesterday and it's quite strappy and no-where near as lush as your one ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > Nikki, > > the plant on the foreground left with the round leaves - is that Cardamine? It's a type of Hydrocotyle or Pennywort. I took a photo of it a few weeks back when it was deficient in a nutrient. Iron most probably. http://www.ncasali.demon.co.uk/HYDROCOTYLE.JPG > If it si how old is it? I got something similar yesterday and it's quite > strappy and no-where near as lush as your one ;) This plant grows as fast as a weed can grow. Leaves don't last for more than a few weeks before they're pruned. The last prune sent 90% of its mass into the bin. I feel bad, but it's only a plant. No need to anthropomorphise! Nikki > I just took a shot of mine last night. > http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow into > that jungle kinda look. It's getting there isn't it? :) That's one thing I've noticed with plants - when they grow in the tank takes on an otherworldy look, and they certainly don't look like the day you planted them out. Congratulations - that looks like a really nice little tank. Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith >>I just took a shot of mine last night. >>http://eethomp.com/Graphics/5_gal2.jpg It's finally starting to grow into [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Oz Thanks! I always love watching new planted tanks grow. I know exactly what you mean about otherworldly. I've never managed one quite as otherworldly as some of Amano's...maybe one of these years. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > Who tells you when the water switches? That could prove deadly to the fish > if you're controlling the pH through a pH controller. Sydney Water have a web site that's pretty on the ball, but basically I have a mate who works for them and tells me where the water is coming from at any particular time. I test the water at this end out of the tap to confirm. I've taken to mixing rain water with tap water at about 50/50 lately and especially if the pH and hardness shoot right up. I am not bothered about minerals in the water because I use this stuff I get from K-Mart, which a lot of Oz Aquarists are shy of for some reason, which basically puts the minerals back in the water. It's got Acroflavin in it, which bothers me a little, but at the concentrations it's in it's not going to kill anything. The dechlorinator I have switched to also replaces electrolytes (sounds like salts to me ;) so as long as I don't do a massive (more than 50%) water change there isn't a lot of danger of osmatic shock. Any way it must be ok because every one in the tank is as randy as, full of life, full of colour, slimey and apparently happy ;) Even the plants are going off so I think it's safe to say my tank is reasonably balanced and stable at this particular point in time. >> This is part of "the balance" I quite often go on about. I have 4 SAE's, >> 2 Swordtails and a large snail and a medium amount of plants, but I still [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's so cruel. Poking fun at that algae. You turn your back and before > you know it... LOL!. It's hardly having a chance to replicate and grow, to be honest. I actually wish they'd all leave it alone because it looks quite good. To that end I've bought some algae wafers for the bottom dwellers, so they don't have to gnash their teeth on rock to get their greens ;) > Ever few days I drop in a leaf of Romaine lettuce. The Ancistrus love the > stuff, although it's usually only the big Ancistrus who really gets to eat > it, the bully he is. It's shuffle, shuffle and whack with the tail, > "Mine!" I used to do this with blanched Cauliflower leaves from my garden, BUT I had a heart attack when I suddenly realised after I ate the cauliflower that the leaves were polluted with chemicals, and no matter how hard or much I blanched or nuked them the bitter taste of chemical wasn't going away. I hadn't considered it may be poisoning the critters - I live right under the flight path for Mascot Airport (3rd or 4th busiest in the world) and 747's and all sorts of things come over so close you feel like you could reach up an touch them. - I was harvesting leaves one day and a Jumbo went over the garden and it was particularly low so I looked up - about 20 seconds after I had tilted my head my reading glasses got all these little particulate dropletts on the glass. It was jet fuel!!!!! So I thought - well the fish aren't getting of this stuff which has been subjected to months and months of these deposits - it was no wonder that no matter how much I washed the cauliflowers they always tasted bitter! I was poisoning myself as well. Eeek!. So growing food crops is out for me due to too much pollution. I am glad I realised this is one of the factors that propbably killed Mystery Snail #2 and the Chinese Algae Eater who'd both had a chew on my cualiflower leaves a couple of days before their passing. The wafers I bought weren't cheap - Haikari Brand - but the fish love them and I have peace of mind there are 0 pollutants in them ;) >> I can "feel" the KH of the water ;) >> > I bet that takes some practice! I can feel the softness actually. But I have no idea without testing what the numbers actually are ;) > I don't believe there's a substitute for SAE. Maybe a few dozen Amano > shrimp? Do they eat BBA? Almost definately. Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with > this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Gill I suddenly realized that none of us have asked how much light you have. It sounds like that tank is getting an awful lot of light to grow big clumps of thready algae like that. And I bet your platy fry are loving life! Light is an essential part of the light/CO2/fertilizer/micro element balance. You mentioned that the room is bright. If your tank is actually getting sunlight, you'll have to a lot of plants before they can outcompete the algae. Clown pl*cos are iffy algae eaters but cool little fish. Bristlenose plecos are a bit harder-working but you probably don't want another pleco. For cleaning green algae from glass and broad-leaved plants, I like Farlowella spp. (stick catfish) myself. They'll often hang out nose-down in amazon sword plants. Avoid the huge "Royal Farlowella" which eats the plants right along with the algae. Farlowellas can have a tough time acclimating and you may lose one, but once you have a fish that likes your tank it will live for many years. Another to consider is otocinclus but they tend to eat soft green algaes and diatoms rather than the big, thready stuff. They are small, shy, and should be kept in groups. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > > So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal with > > this. What algae eaters would you suggest? I've already got a Clown Pl*co in [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > and diatoms rather than the big, thready stuff. They are small, shy, > and should be kept in groups. Light is very much a big factor although we do have a lot of blinds....the tank is in a conservatory - beginners mistake.....heat shouldn't be too much of a factor in the summer as we've learnt over the years how to control it although I will monitor this summer and consider a cooler if nec. I've already accepted that the algae control will be a challenge with this amount of light which is why everyone's ideas are really great - thanks!!! Do you think that the Twig Catfish would cope with a PH of 7.5? - I did a google which suggested they prefer more acidic (but you get so much contradictory info). The Ottos sound appealing but I'll have to shift some fish to accommodate a group of them..... More plants might be another option.... >> > So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to >> > deal [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > More plants might be another option.... Floating plants (Hornwort) or plants which send large lilypad-like leaves to the surface (Tiger Lotus) have the added advantage of reducing the light reaching the rest of the tank. The effectiveness of CO2 (on plant growth) diminishes in an environment where the water is highly buffered and the pH is high. Signaturewww.NetMax.tk > The effectiveness of CO2 (on plant growth) diminishes in an environment > where the water is highly buffered and the pH is high. Are you saying that 25 mg/L of CO2 in highly buffered water is less conducive to plant growth than 25 mg/L of CO2 in lightly buffered water? Nikki >> The effectiveness of CO2 (on plant growth) diminishes in an >> environment where the water is highly buffered and the pH is high. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nikki Very nice tank Nikki. I presume there are fish in there too ;~). My work tanks were 3dgH, 2dkH and 7.5-7.7pH, which accounts for my soft water experience. At home. my liquid rock varies. While my tap has reached 38dgH (680ppm), I try to keep my tanks at between 16 and 18dgH (286- 322 ppm or mg/L) and the pH is 8.4 (rock steady with 16dkH). There are many plants which will labour under these hardwater and high pH conditions, and adding CO2 will not make a significant difference. We used to get well-water customers wanting to buy CO2 systems so they could have low pH and lush plants. At high buffer, the pH is just not going to budge significantly, and the natural CO2 balance will be very low, so anything injected will not hang around long. In summary, 25 mg/L of CO2 would not have the same effect in well-water, *even* if the plants were not affected by the liquid rock that they were sitting in. Once these customer's expectations were 'adjusted' if they still wanted to add CO2, then I'd have the RO/DI/rainwater chat with them ;~). Signaturewww.NetMax.tk >>>So I guess you are saying adding CO2 might not be the best way to deal > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > More plants might be another option.... I kept a Farlowella at pH 7.4 for years. Just acclimate the fish to your tankwater carefully. Also, if you get one that's been at LFS for a couple of weeks, it should be used to your local pH. We did often have some fish in new shipments die so don't buy new imports if you can help it. More plants are ALWAYS an option for me! *grin* Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > My LFS has recommended I get a CO2 unit to sort the algae in my tank. But > from reading various postings I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fish...the tank has enough in there as is... > What do you all think???? LFS wants to make some money. I agree that algae is generally harmless, but a tank certainly looks nicer with the plants free of algae. Any idea how much nitrate is in your water? You could try feeding less and changing more water to lower nitrates (if your tapwater has low nitrate). Also a lot of us are getting good algae control with a plant supplement called Seachem Flourish Excel. It adds carbon for the plants and seems to inhibit algae growth at the same time. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > Also a lot of us are getting good algae control with a plant supplement > called Seachem Flourish Excel. It adds carbon for the plants and seems to > inhibit algae growth at the same time. I am possibly going to switch to this next week because I think in combination with brine shrimp pellets (phosphate) my current stuff may be causing a bit of algae. There is more light getting into the tank these days because I've cut all of the surface leaves off the Banana Lilies, so in combination with higher nutrient levels in the water column it could be causing an algae outbreak. I added a lot more plants last week and already they are growing and pearling like mad. They have grown healthy white roots in less than a week (from bare stalks) and seem to have the green algae in check. It's mainly confined to the rocks these days and I reckon it looks good to have a "mossy rock" or two. Besides, there are creatures in my tank now that like to nibble on it - namely, the SAE's, Swords and Mystery Snail. I have a little rock in front of the two larger ones with the algae on them and this has Java Moss on it and all 3 rocks grouped actually look quite nice. Hopefully, if the Java Moss keeps growing at the astounding rate it is I can get it grow over all of the rocks. As a side note to this algae issue - I also removed that nice piece of driftwood I had in the back right corner - it was suspicious after all - it used to slime up really quickly and I am starting to think this is where the spores from the original green algae attack came from, as it was given to my by a mate who doesn't take care of his tanks or fish very well, and certainly wouldn't have prepared the wood properly other than water logging it. I suspect also it came out of his outside gold fish tank which is in full sunlight and chocked with green crap. It wouldn't stay down anyway and it was a hassle having tied to a brick ;) Oz Oz, I loathe you and your plants! You obviously have something going right. Phooey. my aquarium page, info and pics at: www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html > Oz, I loathe you and your plants! > You obviously have something going right. > > Phooey. I am tempted to LOL! because you have no idea of the "pain" I've been through to get to this stage. (well perhaps you do) Honestly, it's been touch and go for a couple of months now, and it's only this week I feel big enough to tell people about it. The path to this current success was winding and torturous, but that said, I read a lot, was patient and took the advice of many people in these groups. In my case it's apparently working. ymmv. If I can say anything about it, it is this: I am happy it's all happening at the moment, but as things use up (nutrients in the gravel etc,) and the small things go in and out of balance, I can't honestly say I can "brag" like I have been of late ;) I am hoping the plants keep it up, and that the CO2 doesn't fail. I am expecting a massive change in circumstances when I replace the fluoro tubes in a few months for instance. I have noticed different growth characteristics from the two tubes I use. The Philips Aquarelle seems to put out a lot of light in the the red part of the spectrum, in comparison to the Chinese plant spectrum one I have from LFS#1 - the result is that while the fish look great, I think it's turning leaves red. It's hard to say because for so long I went with out fertilization other than fish food and mulm. The greatest and most solid advice for plants in my experience seems to be - right sized particles in the substrate, sufficient light intensity and period (spectrum and CRI independent), macro fetilization via slow release, micro fertilization via water column, correct plant selection for the amount of light and nutrient and the right fish to go with all of this, and of course a stable, reliable and non-polluting CO2 system. It all seems daunting when you first hear of it all, but given a little time for it to sink in, the experience of doing and the wisdom of time, it all seems to come together. BTW, your tanks look just fine to me - there don't appear to be any massive outages with your stuff either, so I'd say you've got envious systems too ;) They are just different. There is also another issue which I don't think a lot of us realise: the geographical location of tanks - mine are located in a sub-tropical part of the southern hemisphere (East coast of Australia) and it's quite warm in the day time here atm. I don't have such a battle on my hands to raise water temperature as my northern cousins do. Neither is the water quality so bad I have to play with it. I am lucky living in this lucky land to be honest with you. Any way, enough ranting, all I have to really say is application and patience will get you pearling, growing and oggling :) Best Regards, Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith >> Oz, I loathe you and your plants! >> You obviously have something going right. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Oz To Oz, Based on what I think is the excellent advice you provide, and the short time which you have been researching in earnest, I have the feeling that you are neither typical or representative of the average hobbyist. I would say that your results and your level of knowledge is exceptional, and the only drawback that your accurate and well intentioned observations might sometimes have, is when the less 'exceptional' try to reproduce them ;~). Signaturewww.NetMax.tk > To Oz, > Based on what I think is the excellent advice you provide, and the short [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > might sometimes have, is when the less 'exceptional' try to reproduce them > ;~). Well, thanks! I try to be as illustrative as possible with my answers and conversations but I think I have propensity to rave a bit. I still need advice though and when all is said and done, all of my knowledge has come from links provided by Google searching of web and groups and many more useful links have come from these discussion groups - nothing the average person couldn't do, to be honest. Currently, advice I am tending give is actually coming from personal experience, but over-all I just can't believe how "into" this I got so soon. I thought I learn about computers fast, but this takes the cake ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > Currently, advice I am tending to give is actually coming from personal > experience, but over-all I just can't believe how "into" this I got so soon. > I thought I learned about computers fast, but this takes the cake ;) > > Oz You and me both, Oz. It isn't that suprising for me though, based on my past eh, hobbies (read obsessions). Years back, a friend took me bass fishing. By the end of that year I had subscribed to 2 magazines, bought one of every kind of bass lure from Bass Pro Shops and countless other vendors, and had 6 fishing poles that I took to the lakes weekly. A few years later while shopping for my son's 12th birthday I found some model rockets. I'd done them as a youngster and we had a great time the following weekend. Finding the internet then, (1998) I was subjected to more information on the subject than I could ever dream of. From here: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/4186/ to here: http://www.geocities.com/erviservy/hojocrew3.jpg in just a few short years. Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store or have a 7 tiered pond-aquarium-vivarium combo large enough to scuba dive in. :) steve > Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store That would put an end to the hobby... Nikki > > Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store > > That would put an end to the hobby... > > Nikki I almost went that route in the '90s when the first round of the obsession hit. I had a friend who has run a store and loves to do it. I actually did end up working weekends in LFS. I made extra cash, got a discount, and had great fun netting every fish, plant, or invertebrate imaginable on the busy weekend fish aisle. Just don't touch carpet anemones with bare hands and expect to be soaked when you have to catch a foot-long koi! Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > > Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store > > That would put an end to the hobby... That's a problem for me too - too many hobbies have turned into jobs and in the process I've gone off them - music was the first and I am old enough now to know better I guess ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > Makes me wonder when I'm going to own a Tropical Fish Store or have a 7 > tiered pond-aquarium-vivarium combo large enough to scuba dive in. :) Me too. The girl at the Pet Warehouse gave me information about dechlorinators as I was buying my regular yesterday and she was trying really hard to impart her understanding to me about what electrolyte replacement was for. I listened and left without additional comment (I thanked her for her advice) but I thought to myself - perhaps I should start looking for a job in the aquarium industry? ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > Oz, I loathe you and your plants! > You obviously have something going right. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > my aquarium page, info and pics at: > www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html I go for a jungle look ... http://www.angelfire.com/wy2/wyogeo/aquariums/ Now I just have to sort it out and learn to landscape. Myself and some of my favorite rocks from a recent Utah visit Bob Oh well ,no one would have been interested me the rocks...the url got lost somewhere Bob >> Oz, I loathe you and your plants! >> You obviously have something going right. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Bob >>Oz, I loathe you and your plants! >>You obviously have something going right. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Bob Wow! I bet your fish are happy in that mass of green. What is the reddish stem plant that's in the midground of the closer end of the tank in the Jungle #2? It looks like it might be a thin-leaved Ludwigia? I'm trying to choose a reddish plant and I like that one. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > Wow! I bet your fish are happy in that mass of green. What is the > reddish stem plant that's in the midground of the closer end of the tank > in the Jungle #2? It looks like it might be a thin-leaved Ludwigia? I'm > trying to choose a reddish plant and I like that one. I'm trying to find out.... I got it at a SFBAAPS plant swap. So much gets passed around I loose track of what is what is what. I'm slowly trying to get everyhting identified. I'll try to find out. That tank has barely 2 effective watts per gallon, tank 1 has 80 watts for 55 gallons. I use Tom Barrs methodm with ferts. bob > > Also a lot of us are getting good algae control with a plant supplement > > called Seachem Flourish Excel. It adds carbon for the plants and seems to [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Oz Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and one small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure removing it all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think giving the other two bits a good clean up would be? Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off.... Gill > Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and one > small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure removing it > all is an option (one bit houses the pl*c). How useful do you think giving > the other two bits a good clean up would be? Well in my experience a boggy slimey piece of wood, even after a bleach bath, H2O2 dosing, a scrubbing and an airing will do exactly the same thing again and again. It's the lignin breaking down I suspect. What I am tinkering with atm, is covering my piece with fibreglass resin. Either that, or making a fake piece from foam and fibreglass resin - a piece that will stay down on it's own. I can also get "artistic" with the paint and have any wood finish I like this way ;) I am thinking this from a maintinence point of view - so that it can be easily scrubbed and cleaned. It's also an option for rocks as well. The resin is inert so it doesn't affect water chemistry, and I subscribe to the KISS principal lately, by simplifying as many processes as possible so it's easy to diagnose faults as they happen. Things leaching into the water column bother me, so I really think artificial is the way to go in this instance ;) It's some time off in the future any how, but I'll inform you all through my photos when it's happened ;) > Don't have any snails - the clowns finished them off.... They wouldn't finish a large Mystery Snail or two off I'm betting ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > > Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and one > > small in the tank. They are quite "hairy" with algae. Not sure removing it [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Oz BTW I love what you've done with the styro backing.....just wish I had the artistic ability to do similar for my new Malawi tank - been looking for something like that for weeks but couldn't find anything local... > BTW I love what you've done with the styro backing.....just wish I had the > artistic ability to do similar for my new Malawi tank - been looking for > something like that for weeks but couldn't find anything local... Hi, there is nothing more to that background other than foam, glue and a knife and paint. The hardest bit was cutting thw right size out. The "rocks/stones" are simply broken bits of foam stuck onto the backing. I just went 45 degrees with a knife along all the square edges and then painted it. Nothing artistic there ;) It's one of the easiest DIY things I've done for an aquarium to be honest. Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith >> Interesting what you say about the driftwood. I have 2 big pieces and >> one [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Oz Somewhere in this article http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=driftwood/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=1/IPC=ca/SHE=0/H=2/ SIG=12glgllfh/EXP=1109207595/*-http%3A//www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/aquascapi ng/wood.shtml there is an explanation why you should not scrub the bio-film of off driftwood, except in the area affected. Signaturewww.NetMax.tk > Somewhere in this article > http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=driftwood/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=1/IPC=ca/SHE=0/H=2/ SIG=12glgllfh/EXP=1109207595/*-http%3A//www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/aquascapi ng/wood.shtml > there is an explanation why you should not scrub the bio-film of off > driftwood, except in the area affected. Thanks, I know this article well and it was considered before I finally removed my piece of wood from the tank. I am just over it. On re-reading though, I think it's probably not a good idea to cover it in resin, so the artificial wood is the route I am going to take, if at all. I added quite a few more plants today (I will photograph it and upload it to the photo-blog some time over this coming weekend), and the tank is starting to get short on free swimming space. That's it now for the plants. I can just divide from here on in. I still have 4 red plants on order at LFS#1, but I may lay off them for the time being because my pearling has stopped because of increased carbon consumption and the time is approaching where aquascaping is going to be the issue. I also added 5 more Serpae, 2 female swords and single Hockey Stick (to replace the stargate loss;); I put my sick Serpae out of her misery as she just wasn't getting any better unfortunately, so I thought while I was at LFS#2 today 5 more wouldn't hurt;) So in a (now) quite heavily planted, CO2 injected 220L/58gal tank I have a total of 45 fish, and I'd say I am at the limit on the fish side right now. There isn't enough space, quite frankly, for the wood, and it really was more trouble than it was worth to me. It must have been affecting the pH though, because my pH has been hovering around 7.0 since I removed it. It was previously 6.6 to 6.8. As long as I keep the CO2 up I can keep the pH down from it's natural 7.8. Because I've got 4SAE's (which are growing pretty fast I might add) and 4 swords and a Mystery Snail, I bought some wafers today, because all of these things have the algae completly under control and I'm particularly worried about the SAE's not getting enough greens. Strange thing happened though when I fed them tonight - the SAE's went for the ground brine shrimp pellets floating on the surface and the Swords, Serpae and Gourami went for the wafers - it was very funny watching the non-bottom dwellers tossing the disks around and scrapping over the off shoots ;) Oz <snip> > Strange thing happened though when I fed them tonight - the SAE's went for > the ground brine shrimp pellets floating on the surface and the Swords, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Oz When I worked in a pet shop, that was one of the most enjoyable parts, feeding the fish. About 120 tanks, and while I could do it in about 20 minutes, my preference was to spread it out over the morning (or evening). I found that it benefited the customers a lot when they saw the various foods and techniques available. Your post reminded me of the games of soccer some fish would have. Drop a single algae wafer in a 60g tank of Silver dollars, and invariably one will get it in his mouth and run with it. Soon someone wrestles it out of his mouth, until it is stolen by someone else (and so on). I could get about 3 wafers in simultaneous play. Similar gameplay would be happening in the tank of Tiger barbs, Monos, Piranhas, Pacus, Congo tetras, and stealing foods from the cats (and vice-versa) was part of the game. The big Pacus would take the wafer in its mouth and spin it, chewing it into a progressively smaller disk. Sometimes they would even spin 2 disks at the same time (with varying degrees of success ;~). -- www.NetMax.tk > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > -- > www.NetMax.tk My bigger clowns now play catch with any wafers/sinking tabs....usually get them mid-tank and then carry them off....The Gouramis try and steal them from the smaller clowns but wouldn't dare try it on the bigger ones....great fun to watch... > When I worked in a pet shop, that was one of the most enjoyable parts, > feeding the fish. About 120 tanks, and while I could do it in about 20 [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > even > spin 2 disks at the same time (with varying degrees of success ;~). It's funny isn't it? I just came from my AM inspection of the tank and most of the Serpae are vibrating at each other which I guess means they are mating ;) The male starts vibrating/fluttering, or is it the female? - moves off into some vegetation and the partner follows and starts a little vibrating itself if it's in the mood. Funny thing about this is I never see the actual intercourse. It is either very fast, or no seemingly actually happening. I am getting quite an experiential knowledge of this fish's behaviour. The Black Phantoms do a slightly similar thing at times, but they are mostly concerned with turning black and twirling around each other in displays of territorial dominance - looking like little Orca in the process :). The females seem to be far more aggressive in this lot too. Every scrap of that food I was talking about was gone this morning, so I am starting to reconsider the feeding frequency. Perhaps once per day isn't enough for these particular types of fish? I have a feeling that once they've digested their meal they are ready again (about 30 minutes), so I may experiment with building it up to 3 smaller feedings over the lighting period of the tank. Ah, the joys of fish keeping, and who says that fish don't have personality? ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > > When I worked in a pet shop, that was one of the most enjoyable parts, > > feeding the fish. About 120 tanks, and while I could do it in about 20 [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Oz I don't believe for one instance that fish don't have personality....Ok maybe when I just kept goldfish as a kid I thought that....but every single one of my fish has it's own quirks...maybe that's why I love them so much :-) > I just came from my AM inspection of the tank and most of the Serpae are > vibrating at each other which I guess means they are mating ;) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > territorial dominance - looking like little Orca in the process :). The > females seem to be far more aggressive in this lot too. You voyeur, you! The only fish that internally fertilize are the livebearers. With the rest, the female lays eggs either on a solid substrate or by scattering and then the male fertilizes them either as she lays or shortly thereafter. Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > You voyeur, you! The only fish that internally fertilize are the > livebearers. With the rest, the female lays eggs either on a solid > substrate or by scattering and then the male fertilizes them either as she > lays or shortly thereafter. Ah! well there you go! - there's something I didn't know - so I guess I won't see a physical union then.? How boring! for the fish as well. One of the Hockeys sprayed what I think was eggs tonight - they were doing their usual lighting dashes around the tank that they always do at sunset (I am sure they can see the sun going down outside through the curtins even though they have blaring fluoro lights above them simulating tropical mid-day sun) and on one particularly furious sprint from one end to the other all these white things sprayed out from the back of one of the three in the chase. I didn't see it directly, but out of the corner of my eye. When I turned to look at it all directly there was a tank wide feeding frenzy, so I'd be surprised if Hockey Stick Tetra males ever get a chance to fertilise their eggs. ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > > Somewhere in this article http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=driftwood/v=2/SID=w/l=WS1/R=1/IPC=ca/SHE=0/H=2/ SIG=12glgllfh/EXP=1109207595/*-http%3A//www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/aquascapi ng/wood.shtml > > there is an explanation why you should not scrub the bio-film of off > > driftwood, except in the area affected. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Oz What fish have you got in there? Mine's much the same size. > What fish have you got in there? Mine's much the same size. 1 Mystery Snail 1 Male Honey Gourami 4 SAE 4 Sword Tails 6 Black Neon Tetra 6 Penguin/Hockey Stick Tetra 9 Black Phantom Tetra 10 Serpae Tetra 11 Neon Tetra Hey! that's 52 fish. Sorry, it was late last night and my mind was on other matters when I reported 45 (like how to get DOS USB2.0 happening ;)). So I am definitely close to, if not at the limit for this tank. Time to sit back now and maintain it - the stocking phase is concluded for the time being. Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > > What fish have you got in there? Mine's much the same size. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Oz I really don't think I can go more fish....so plants has to be the option right now until I can get my son to take some of my fish into his new tank....I might only have 33 but they are bigger than yours >>What fish have you got in there? Mine's much the same size. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 10 Serpae Tetra > 11 Neon Tetra 2 Angelfish 7 Ancistrus 2 Otocinclus 2 Upside Down Catfish 4 Mollies 3 SAE 1 Ruby Shark 21 fish. Not many for a 330L tank! The icing on the cake will be 4 Clown Loaches. But only when I regain the confidence to have them. > Hey! that's 52 fish. Sorry, it was late last night and my mind was on other > matters when I reported 45 (like how to get DOS USB2.0 happening ;)). I see, you're trying to house train your pet DinOSaur too. Good luck. Nikki > I see, you're trying to house train your pet DinOSaur too. Good luck. LOL! Actually a friend bought, against my advice, a USB2.0 removable HD for a Hard Drive transfer/back-up. The program he was using couldn't image XP while it was up and running. In the end I forgot about the "training" and found a program that does it under Windows - too hard under DOS - it wasn't meant to be IMO - I did get it to work in the end but as with all DinOSaur matters one has to ask why bother when Windoze can do it better and with a GUI ;) Anyway, after that I sat down a drew with pencil and paper, my new "aquascape". I've decided to remove the Pongol completely after information that it's a bog version of Mondo Grass (as I suspected) ,which gives more latitude for getting better placement for the plants. The fish I have all need a fair amount of open swimming space at times. So I've designed it to push all the tall plants to the back. The newer Blue Strictas to the front and try to get the Java Moss (which is growing like no-ones business) to cover the two rocks. I am a little concerned that my GH and KH may be off the scale because I bought a 5 in 1 test strip thing (JBL Brand from Deutchland) and it gave off the scale readings for the hardness. I will test again tomorrow because I think I may have caused false positive readings by testing about 10 minutes after a 10% water change with tap water. Too eager to see if it worked ;) The fish seem fine and all are randy as buggery, but there is another (potential) problem which has to do with dissolved gasses and plant growth, and that's the water temp. I can't get it down below 30C because the ambient temperature is so high for so long lately. We're smack in the middle of summer weather here and it's bothering me that hot water holds less oxygen, CO2 etc., and it may be affecting the pH and KH and causing stress of the osmotic variety. I guess if I aquascape the plants right I will be able to put the wood back in because that seems to have been doing more, consistently, for lowering the pH than CO2 injection does - while the hardness is so high (I think) and until I can get a supply of rain water (RO isn't an option for me) the wood is the only thing I have which can lower the hardness. I am not sure about lowering the KH with chemicals, particularly acids because the fish actually seem fine. It's on going, so we'll see as of tomorrow A.M. and then again at Midday and then again at late P.M. just before the lights go out. I hope it was nothing more than the price of impatience and a false positive reading. I wouldn't like to pull the rocks out too because that would leave the tank at the mercy of the CO2..we'll see it how it goes after further future testing. I am sort of confident everything's okay and I need to get more sleep and concentrate more on the tasks at hand ;) Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > > Nikki snip... > I am a little concerned that my GH and KH may be off the scale because I > bought a 5 in 1 test strip thing (JBL Brand from Deutchland) and it gave off [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > CO2 etc., and it may be affecting the pH and KH and causing stress of the > osmotic variety. 30C is certainly on the high side. However, high and stable is usually OK. What's bad is if it goes up during the day and drops at night. I've lowered summertime tank temps in the past by replacing my glass canopy with fluorescent lighting diffuser. It's often called "eggcrate" and is a sheet of open white plastic squares. You get it at hardware stores. It allows for some evaporative cooling, especially if you clip a little fan to the side of the tank. You can lower temps a couple of degrees this way. You also may want to consider running an airstone at night when the plants are using oxygen rather than providing it. Also, don't sweat osmotic stress as long as pH and KH aren't shifting around. Fish can adapt to a lot of different stable conditions. Yours are clearly content and it may be the high temps that are inducing spawning. > I guess if I aquascape the plants right I will be able to put the wood back > in because that seems to have been doing more, consistently, for lowering [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lowering the KH with chemicals, particularly acids because the fish actually > seem fine. You could also filter over peat or use blackwater extract. Most softwater fish really like blackwater. But I'm not convinced you need to mess with your water. > It's on going, so we'll see as of tomorrow A.M. and then again at Midday and > then again at late P.M. just before the lights go out. I hope it was > nothing more than the price of impatience and a false positive reading. I > wouldn't like to pull the rocks out too because that would leave the tank at > the mercy of the CO2..we'll see it how it goes after further future testing. Rocks? I hope you're not using limestone rocks. It's much better to control KH with a bit of baking soda because you can measure and control what's going into the water. That could be the source of your high KH readings, and of course they will dissolve faster at higher temps. > I am sort of confident everything's okay and I need to get more sleep and > concentrate more on the tasks at hand ;) Yes. Fish are spawning and plants are growing so everything is OK. > Oz Signature__ Elaine T __ ><__'> http://eethomp.com/fish.html <'__>< > 30C is certainly on the high side. However, high and stable is usually > OK. What's bad is if it goes up during the day and drops at night. I've [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > way. You also may want to consider running an airstone at night when the > plants are using oxygen rather than providing it. Well it's been on my mind to put an air stone on a timer to start 30 mintes after lights out, but because I'm not sure about my hardness right now and seeing no-one is gasping at the surface overnight or in the morning I may wait a little longer, but thanks for the heads-up. I haven't re-tested for hardness yet, but will do so PM tonight just before lights out. I would do your vent proposal if it weren't for one thing - I have 10 quite able jumpers in my tank and I'm sure they would somehow make it through the egg crate openings ;) I have been moving the lighting canopy backwards and blowing a room fan over the exposed water surface, but it only drops the top 1/3 by about 1 degree C. > Also, don't sweat osmotic stress as long as pH and KH aren't shifting > around. Fish can adapt to a lot of different stable conditions. Yours > are clearly content and it may be the high temps that are inducing > spawning. You are correct ;) The fish are the indicator. As I said no-one is gasping or hanging. I guess also there is another benifit to these high temps. and that is that most ich and things like that aren't going to be able to get a hold in the tank while the temp is on the high side. No wonder they are all so hungry all the time - their metabolisms are in high gear ;) I also can't imagine that in the wild, especially in the regions my fish hail from, that water temps do regularly rise above 30C at this time of year - especially in the Amazon/Rio Negro basin pools, and in Bangladesh and Mexico where the Gourami and Swords come from. My LFS#1 guy stated once that if I wasn't careful I would kill my fish with kindness - so maybe I should chill out and relax a little? ;) > You could also filter over peat or use blackwater extract. Most softwater > fish really like blackwater. But I'm not convinced you need to mess with > your water. Neither am I to be honest. The more I think about what I stated in the previous post, the more I think the tank is ok, and I just managed a false postive test through impatient testing - new toy and all that ;) > Rocks? I hope you're not using limestone rocks. It's much better to > control KH with a bit of baking soda because you can measure and control > what's going into the water. That could be the source of your high KH > readings, and of course they will dissolve faster at higher temps. That's true - no they aren't limestones by my testing (with pH Down instead of piss weak Vinegar). I really think after what my water board mate has told me that it's more likely coming from the tap on water changes. When all things are considered and time is allowed for the chemistry to settle - if anything I think the tank should bring the hardness down. Any way it's due to rain again soon, so I'll get out there and mix some rainwater with the tap water and see if that makes a difference and then I'll be closer to knowing where my (possible) hardness is coming from ;) > Yes. Fish are spawning and plants are growing so everything is OK. Thanks for the reassuring words - I'm going to chill out and enjoy my tank. The flow has reduced quite a bit on my main filter, so I may attend to that, but apart from that - I think now I'm stocked and planted it's just time to sit back and enjoy it ;) thanks for your words and advice, as always, Oz SignatureMy Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith > I have been moving the lighting canopy backwards and blowing a room fan over > the exposed water surface, but it only drops the top 1/3 by about 1 degree > C. A couple of summers ago, I placed a small fan a few inches away from the surface of the water. It drove the temperature down by an incredible 5 degrees C. The down side is that almost 1 cm of water was evaporating per day. Why only the top 1/3? Wouldn't you expect convection to even that out? Nikki Hey, that reminds me - I noticed an increasingly yucky smell last week when I opened the hinged glass lid on my 46-g bowfront. I had just done a water change, and the water level was quite high - near the top of the lid. The smell, combined with an oily sheen on top of the water, led me to believe that perhaps not enough oxygenation was happening. I began thinking that too much of the tank's surface was being covered by the glass. There was only a 2-in. strip in the back, where I suppose some air exchange would occur. I wanted to increase this exchange without losing any fish to jumping. OTOH, I still wanted to be able to lift the hinged front section as needed. So, I bought some stiff PVC mesh from Home Depot and cut it to fit the shape of the front portion of the glass lid. Since my lid allows partitions to slide in and out, I slid out the glass panel, used it as a template to cut the mesh, and then slid the mesh panel into place. I was able to attach the lift-clip to the front of the mesh panel, too. My tank lid is now about 1/3 glass (where the light fixture rests) and the rest is composed of the plastic mesh instead. The mesh portion probably wouldn't bear a lot of weight, but it is more than enough to prevent suicide jumps. I have noticed more water loss to evaporation, but I'll bet that I have improved the oxygen levels in my tank by a lot. There is no more bad smell, and no more oily sheen o |
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