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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / October 2004docking dogs' tails
what is the purpose of docking a dog's tail??? A beauty standard? Is the dog consulted? > what is the purpose of docking a dog's tail??? A beauty standard? Is the dog > consulted? In hunting dogs, it is to protect the tail. With the increase in dogs who are not docked and actively hunting, I've seen percentages of injuries requiring surgical amputation as high as 38%. And when you have a breed that is actively used in the field, it's hard to decide at 3 days of age whether or not that dog is going to be used to hunt. Other dogs, like guard dogs, it was so that they looked fierce or so that they didn't have a tail for someone to grab on to, something like that. But that was why, historically, Dobermans and Rottweiler and Boxers had their tails docked. natalie  SignatureWhat fresh hell is this? --- Dorothy Parker << In hunting dogs, it is to protect the tail. With the increase in dogs who are not docked and actively hunting, I've seen percentages of injuries requiring surgical amputation as high as 38%. >> yeeks- I never thought of that. Thanks for the info. www.mimiforsyth.com > ...With the increase in dogs who > are not docked and actively hunting, I've seen percentages of injuries > requiring surgical amputation as high as 38%. ... Natalie, I don't understand this statement. Are you suggesting that 38% of hunting dogs that injure their tail require it to be amputated? >In hunting dogs, it is to protect the tail. From what? >With the increase in dogs who >are not docked and actively hunting, I've seen percentages of injuries >requiring surgical amputation as high as 38%. Hunting what, tigers? Where do you get this figure? >Other dogs, like guard dogs, it was so that they looked fierce or so that >they didn't have a tail for someone to grab on to, something like that. >But that was why, historically, Dobermans and Rottweiler and Boxers had >their tails docked. Exactly - it's purely cosmetic and breed tradition. It serves no functional purpose, even in hunting and working dogs. > >In hunting dogs, it is to protect the tail. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Exactly - it's purely cosmetic and breed tradition. It serves no functional > purpose, even in hunting and working dogs. Yup. If the purpose was to protect the tail, then why aren't *all* hunting dogs docked? Have you ever seen a lab or golden with a docked tail????? Deborah, DVM > Yup. If the purpose was to protect the tail, then why aren't *all* hunting > dogs docked? Have you ever seen a lab or golden with a docked tail????? Deborah, You are re-defining the term "pointer" in hunting if you are using the argument that pointers don't have their tails docked so no hunting dog should have its tail docked. Why not examine the dogs that go into the brush and run down their quarry? On this subject, I would rather hear from someone that actually hunts with dogs - if there are any such folks that post here. > You are re-defining the term "pointer" in hunting if you are using the > argument that pointers don't have their tails docked so no hunting dog > should have its tail docked. I really should not have said "point" but rather "point" "flush" and "retrieve." >Deborah, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Why not examine the dogs that go into the brush and run down their quarry? Such as...? Almost all the dogs originally bred to do that no longer do, or at least not in the western world. Some examples would be the terriers, dachshunds, and fox hounds. Fox hounds are the only breed I can think of that still actively hunt this way, and they're not docked. >On this subject, I would rather hear from someone that actually hunts >with dogs - if there are any such folks that post here. I don't hunt myself, but I own retrievers and I'm active in a breed club that has many members who do hunt their dogs. I participate in their training and competitions. No docked tails to be found, and no hunters who would even think of doing so. I don't think it's particularly harmful or cruel, it's just pointless and unnecessary. >>Why not examine the dogs that go into the brush and run down their quarry? > > Such as...? Almost all the dogs originally bred to do that no longer do, or > at least not in the western world. ... I have no argument with that. It is not what was originally offered as an argument to which I responded. The notion that some dogs that participated in hunting do not have their tails docked proves the notion that their is (was?) no justification for docking ANY breed is wrong. There are untold legends of things done in the 21st Century to modify appearance to harken back to years past. and I'm not talking about changing a dog's appearance. Body piercing, certain makeup applications, tattoos, hair styles, etc, etc, etc. I happen to be in a breed that has absolutely zero modern opportunity to perform its original intended purpose - the good news is that no modifications to appearance are called for in the standard, and none are allowed. << I don't think it's particularly harmful or cruel, it's just pointless and unnecessary. Isn't it part of the doggie's spine?? > << > I don't think it's particularly harmful or cruel, it's just pointless and > unnecessary. > > Isn't it part of the doggie's spine?? Yes, it's part of the coccygeal vertebrae, but it's not (I almost hate to use the word) 'neccessary' in the same way it is for cats.. A dog doesn't *need* to have it's tail, but still, that's no reason to go around chopping 'em off all willy-nilly.. ;) Mar ----------------------- Total Fishkeeping http://totalfishkeeping.co.uk/index.php? The Blood Parrot Forum http://www.bloodparrot.aquariahobbyist.com/forum/ Learning so many interesting things here! I had a Springer spaniel as a child, & remember howling when my dog was taken to have its tail cut off. It had a beautiful tail. www.mimiforsyth.com <If the purpose was to protect the tail, then why aren't *all* hunting dogs docked? Have you ever seen a lab or golden with a docked tail?????> i almost hate jumping in here, but i have run field trial weimaraners for about 30 years. some pointing breeds, such as pointers, do not hunt in heavy cover. they are what is called "plantation dogs" and are generally used to hunt in wide open spaces. weims, gsps, viszlas are what is referred to as "versatile dogs" and they do hunt in heavy cover. they also have extremely thin coats and do not have the protection that labs, goldens, setters, etc. have to prevent tail damage. i guess i will have to say that i don't understand why springers and brittanies are still docked. i have only seen anecdotal problems with undocked weims as there are hardly any in the US. but i have seen tail injuries in some dogs that required amputation. just my observations. Ruth > In hunting dogs, it is to protect the tail. With the increase in dogs who > are not docked and actively hunting, I've seen percentages of injuries > requiring surgical amputation as high as 38%. And when you have a breed > that is actively used in the field, it's hard to decide at 3 days of age > whether or not that dog is going to be used to hunt. ........I always thought they did it in hunting dogs so the dogs wouldn't alert the game. I'm thinking of fowl, not something like a hog. How exactly do they injure their tails hunting? .........I have, OTOH seen a great dane who probably would have been better off with a docked tail. His poor tail was severely battered from wagging it in a small apartment. He kept hitting door frames and furniture with his tail. Being an essentially happy dog he was always wagging. buglady take out the dog before replying I've seen a number of Great Danes that required tail amputation due to repeatedly banging their tails on walls. That said, I certainly don't recommend prophylactic amputation of their tails. In fact, our practice won't do tail docks, dewclaw removals, ear crops, etc. Mark, DVM > > In hunting dogs, it is to protect the tail. With the increase in dogs who > > are not docked and actively hunting, I've seen percentages of injuries [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > buglady > take out the dog before replying > "Natalie Rigertas" <spam@spam.me.not.com> wrote> > .........I have, OTOH seen a great dane who probably would have been better off with a docked tail. His poor tail was severely battered from wagging it in a small apartment. He kept hitting door frames and furniture with his tail. Being an essentially happy dog he was always wagging. My God, who would keep a Great Dane in a small apt? Mary said in alt.med.veterinary: > My God, who would keep a Great Dane in a small apt? Why not? Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > Mary said in alt.med.veterinary: > >> My God, who would keep a Great Dane in a small apt? > > Why not? Are you serious? Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: >>> My God, who would keep a Great Dane in a small apt? >> >> Why not? > > Are you serious? Yes. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yes. Two of the reasons I have cats (and I live somewhere where it is relatively safe for them to have free access to the outdoors) and not a dog is that a) there's not someone home most of the time to keep the dog company and b) there's no space on my section that I can easily fence off that would leave a dog room to run around in. Even if I did have a section that I could fence for a dog, I would never have a big dog in the city - I would only have one where it could have a *very* large safe area to run around in. Large dogs need lots of exercise, more than most adults are able to accompany them on. One of the ways they can get that exercise is by running around and playing sans humans. I don't believe most yards are big enough for that, and apartments most certainly aren't. > there's not someone home most of the time to keep the dog company ........that's why you get 2 dogs or a companion cat ;-) > Even if I did have a section that I could fence for a dog, I would never > have a big dog in the city - I would only have one where it could have a > *very* large safe area to run around in. ........some cities have off leash areas for dogs and they're rapidly becoming more popular. > Large dogs need lots of exercise, more than most adults are able to > accompany them on. ...........I don't really think that's true. One of the ways they can get that exercise is by running > around and playing sans humans. .........what you're really saying is that you prefer not to use your time exercising a dog - not that it's impossible to give a big dog the needed exercise. There are many dogs living in cities with perfectly good lives. Their owners take them on walks and to dog parks. Training exercises and work that a dog can do (like agility) also exercise the body and mind. My dogs have a yard. They're bored when they're in it by themselves (all 3 of them). They want something to do. buglady take out the dog before replying > > there's not someone home most of the time to keep the dog company > ........that's why you get 2 dogs or a companion cat ;-) [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > buglady > take out the dog before replying We're talking about Great Danes in small apartments. >> > there's not someone home most of the time to keep the dog company >> ........that's why you get 2 dogs or a companion cat ;-) [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >We're talking about Great Danes in small apartments. I don't know about you, but my dogs don't get all their exercise running around the house. Plenty of apartment dwellers are perfectly capable of walking their dogs, and for many dogs, walks are sufficient exercise. Mustang Sally > I don't know about you, but my dogs don't get all their exercise > running around the house. Plenty of apartment dwellers are perfectly > capable of walking their dogs, and for many dogs, walks are sufficient > exercise. Or at least, that's what their owners keep telling themselves. Mary said in alt.med.veterinary: > We're talking about Great Danes in small apartments. What would you say to a Jack Russell Terrier in a small apartment? In my opinion, the JRT needs way more exercise than the Great Dane, though neither are going to get adequate excercise in an apartment - small or large. Most dogs are also not going to get adequate exercise in a large house, even one with a fenced yard. If you were god, would you deny a dog to someone based solely on the square footage of their home? So, my answer to your sensationalist "My God, who would keep a Great Dane in a small apt?" stands. Why not? Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > If you were god, would you deny a dog to someone based solely on > the square footage of their home? Yes - meaning the area of the building and any fenced outdoor area the dog could wander at will in. > So, my answer to your sensationalist "My God, who would keep a > Great Dane in a small apt?" stands. Why not? I've already explained my reasoning. Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: >> If you were god, would you deny a dog to someone based >> solely on the square footage of their home? > Yes - meaning the area of the building and any fenced > outdoor area the dog could wander at will in. Do you own dogs? If you do, have you noticed that they generally don't self-exercise? It's not the size of the home, it's the size of the commitment to a dog's needs by the owner. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It's not the size of the home, it's the size of the commitment > to a dog's needs by the owner. Absolutely. I just got my first dog about 3 months ago. I live in a 2400 sq ft house with a large fenced back yard. My dog lays on the sofa, or her bed, or the carpet.....and when I put her outside she lays on the porch right in front of the door whining to come back inside....and lay on the sofa! She won't even come close to exercising/playing in the backyard, even when I'm with her! I don't think it would matter to her if we lived in a 600 sq ft studio apt on the 10th floor. The only exercise she wants is to go for a walk on the leash. Unfortunately as she's a large dog (shepherd mix) and I've currently got a back injury of some sort, my relatively slow pace and inability to walk longer than 15 minutes is not working very well to meet her needs! I can tell she's desperate to burn energy, but it doesn't matter how antsy she gets, she still won't play in the yard. Oh well....we'll figure out something until my back is better...and in the meantime I'll try to ignore the pitiful looks she keeps giving me :-). Deborah, DVM Unfortunately as she's a large dog (shepherd > mix) and I've currently got a back injury of some sort, my relatively slow > pace and inability to walk longer than 15 minutes is not working very well > to meet her needs! I can tell she's desperate to burn energy, but it > doesn't matter how antsy she gets, she still won't play in the yard. Oh > well....we'll figure out something until my back is better...and in the > meantime I'll try to ignore the pitiful looks she keeps giving me :-). ........Deb, can you get a dog walker til your back heals up? (Yikes are you still working?) Or does she know any well-behaved dogs who can come over and play? I had a back flareup last year and luckily I have an offleash place I can take my dogs, cuz there's no way I could have handled dogs on leashes. I drove my car out to the middle of it and just let them go, shuffling along behind them. Poor things couldn't figure out why I was so slow and they burned up a lot of energy going back and forth trying to make me go faster! ........I went to a chiropractor, but I like my massage person better. Much more relaxing and it did me a lot of good. Get an hour massage 3 times a week for a while and report back Oh and drink all the water you can stand... buglady take out the dog before replying Deborah, DVM (formerly CPT) said in alt.med.veterinary: >> It's not the size of the home, it's the size of the >> commitment to a dog's needs by the owner. > Absolutely. I just got my first dog about 3 months ago. I > live in a 2400 sq ft house with a large fenced back yard. > My dog lays on the sofa, or her bed, or the carpet.....and > when I put her outside she lays on the porch right in front > of the door whining to come back inside....and lay on the > sofa! Yup, though I have the opposite type of house: My home is 650 square feet and, while I have a good sized fenced yard, my dogs don't run around much without me there with them. Even though I have a tiny house, and two energetic herding breed dogs, I made the commitment to actively exercise them, both mentally and physically. It bothers me that some would rather a shelter dog be put down than adopt to someone without a large house - even when they've proved themselves capable dog owners in many other ways. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. >Deborah, DVM (formerly CPT) said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >square feet and, while I have a good sized fenced yard, my dogs >don't run around much without me there with them. my dog has to be actively engaged in the backyard or she just moseys around and sniffs and grazes. it doesn't do anything to burn off that energy. but an hour of fetch, chase, tug, some training, and a bit of a vigorous walk gives her what she needs. inside, even with a whole house to run around in, she is pretty much just a couch potato. i really don't think it makes much difference at all, at least with my dog, what kind of place we live in. having access to a fenced yard (my parents' down the street, not my own) makes things easier, but it doesn't really take away any time requirements on my part. >Even though I have a tiny house, and two energetic herding breed >dogs, I made the commitment to actively exercise them, both >mentally and physically. It bothers me that some would rather a >shelter dog be put down than adopt to someone without a large >house - even when they've proved themselves capable dog owners >in many other ways. <nod nod> --- petey was a pit bull. http://shattering.org > Deborah, DVM (formerly CPT) said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Yup, though I have the opposite type of house: My home is 650 > square feet Oh my God! Please accept my apologies, now I see why you objected to the initial post. A HOUSE? 650 sq. feet? Really?? I don't think I have ever seen this. Mary said in alt.med.veterinary: >> Yup, though I have the opposite type of house: My home is >> 650 square feet > > Oh my God! Please accept my apologies, now I see why you > objected to the initial post. A HOUSE? 650 sq. feet? > Really?? I don't think I have ever seen this. I've been asked before how I deal with 2 (used to be 3) dogs in my small home. My home could be 10 times the size, yet my dogs would be right with me. It's unfortunate for your pets that you equate a large house with good animal care. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. treadmill. perfect way to exercise your dog > > Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Deborah, DVM > Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Do you own dogs? Have you been reading the thread. If you do, have you noticed that they > generally don't self-exercise? Au contraire. My parents dog was free to wander around a fully fenced area of their section (which would have been as large as the entire section of many people's houses). And wander she did, she was constantly walking round investigating things, amusing herself by playing with the toys that were left out for her. Of course she lay around in the sun relaxing as well - but she most definitely also had periods of activity. > It's not the size of the home, it's the size of the commitment > to a dog's needs by the owner. So you think apartment owners have 2-3 hours available every day to devote to walking and running their dogs? >So you think apartment owners have 2-3 hours available every day to devote >to walking and running their dogs? I fail to see how living in an apartment vs. house determines how much free time someone has. There's no shortage of homeowners who leave their pets at home alone for many long hours every day. Come to think of it, when I lived in apartments I had a damn sight more free time...... >>So you think apartment owners have 2-3 hours available every day to devote >>to walking and running their dogs? > > I fail to see how living in an apartment vs. house determines how much > free > time someone has. It doesn't. I never claimed it did. There's no shortage of homeowners who leave their pets at > home alone for many long hours every day. Usually with room to move in. >>>So you think apartment owners have 2-3 hours available every day to devote >>>to walking and running their dogs? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >It doesn't. I never claimed it did. Well, actually, you did. If that's not what you meant, then please explain your comment above. > There's no shortage of homeowners who leave their pets at >> home alone for many long hours every day. > >Usually with room to move in. Perhaps apartments are very different things were you live. I've seen some small apartments, but I've never seen one so small that even the largest dog couldn't move around in it. Walking around a house or apartment isn't exercise in any sense of the word no matter how roomy it is. Perhaps you attribute more exercise value to a dog merely walking around than I do. >>>>So you think apartment owners have 2-3 hours available every day to >>>>devote [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Well, actually, you did. No I didn't. If that's not what you meant, then please explain > your comment above. Easy - by having room to move around in during the day when owners are absent, dogs will actually require less exercise time with a human. Owners of dogs that are able to move around freely, did the occasional hole, chase whatever it is that catches their attention, etc, will need to set aside less specific time to exercising the dog. >> There's no shortage of homeowners who leave their pets at >>> home alone for many long hours every day. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > dog > couldn't move around in it. To be honest with you, I wouldn't have a dog if it had to remain inside all day while I was working. Walking around a house or apartment isn't > exercise in any sense of the word no matter how roomy it is. Actually, walking around, digging the occasional hole, chasing the occasional butterfly or bird (and yes, I have seen dogs do this) is activity and activity is exercise. It's just the same concept as, for example, people whose working life is entirely sedentary, in front of a computer, needing to make more specific time to go for a walk, go to the gym, etc, whereas people who move around a lot during the day don't need to set aside as much specific time for other exercise. Perhaps you > attribute more exercise value to a dog merely walking around than I do. > Easy - by having room to move around in during the day when owners are > absent, dogs will actually require less exercise time with a human. Owners > of dogs that are able to move around freely, did the occasional hole, chase > whatever it is that catches their attention, etc, will need to set aside > less specific time to exercising the dog. I don't know about this, but I do know that having grown up with Great Danes in a fair sized place it is just depressing as hell to think about one trapped in a cramped space for any length of time. Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: >> Do you own dogs? > > Have you been reading the thread. I give up. Bye. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I give up. Bye. I'll take that as a no. > Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I give up. Bye. Well she did mention it. > <snip> > > So you think apartment owners have 2-3 hours available every day to devote > to walking and running their dogs? > > <snip> Many adult dogs do not need three hours of exercise a day. That being said, yes an apartment dweller should find enough time for the dog. We don't (currently) have a yard. Eight hours of sleep, eight hours of work, three hours for cooking/eating, and an hour for commuting leaves four hours a day (not counting weekends) for relaxation (i.e. interacting with the dog), housework, shopping etc. I have a wife, which makes it easier, but we both occaisionally travel and the one at home handles our dog's needs when the other one is away. My dog is mid-sized (~40 lbs) and is higher energy than most of the adult dogs in the neighborhood. Current exercise schedule. In the morning I walk the dog to the schoolbuses with my daughters, and then visit the neighborhood 0.5-1 hour. In the afternoon my wife takes the dog to a neighborhood park and walks her 0.5-1 hour. My daughters also sometimes walk her, and more often play with her. In the evening I take her for a walk, 1+ hours unless she wants to cut it short. On weekends, we do more exercise, often visiting a dog park, a local dog shelter to co-walk/play with some rescues, or a nearby national forest. Things are more complicated for puppies, less because of the exercise needs, than because of the potty breaks. Fortunately my wife only got a job after our dog was housebroken. Our adult dog can go 10+ hours in the daytime without a break, but is typically left alone in the house less than 8.5 hours. > Yes - meaning the area of the building and any fenced outdoor area the dog > could wander at will in. Maybe someone should tell my poor, under-exercised dogs, then. I have a large house and NO fenced yard. Does that mean I can't have a dog? My dogs also get a 3 mile walk in the morning and an hour or two at the dogpark in the evening. If the weather cooperates, they get to go pretty much everywhere with me, and they at least get car rides out of it. My dogs are better socialized and better exercised than a vast majority of the dogs that have a yard to walk around in. I don't know about you, but my dogs don't exercise themselves. If I am not around, they're busy holding the couch/bed down. To be perfectly honest with you, I can take my Great Dane and live in a small apartment. I wouldn't try that your average Jack Russell Terrier. There are many, many breeds of dogs (including smaller dogs) that are not as suited to living in an apartment. > I've already explained my reasoning. Keeping any dog in an apartment requires committment from the owner. If the owner is willing to do what it takes to keep the dog's mind and body well exercised, where they live is irrelevant. Suja > > If you were god, would you deny a dog to someone based solely on > > the square footage of their home? > > > Yes - meaning the area of the building and any fenced outdoor area the dog > could wander at will in. ........I think you have an idea of a dog that is akin to a cat like creature. Cats prefer their own company. Dogs are pack animals. If they're only dogs you're their pack. Wandering around sniffing the backyard is not exercise. They want to do something - preferably with you. If you don't want to use time walking and working and playing with a dog, don't get one. buglady take out the dog before replying >> > If you were god, would you deny a dog to someone based solely on >> > the square footage of their home? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ........I think you have an idea of a dog that is akin to a cat like > creature. No, I do not have that idea at all. Cats prefer their own company. Dogs are pack animals. If > they're only dogs you're their pack. Wandering around sniffing the > backyard > is not exercise. Any movement is exercise. They want to do something - preferably with you. If you > don't want to use time walking and working and playing with a dog, don't > get > one. > > buglady > take out the dog before replying > Mary said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > In my opinion, the JRT needs way more exercise than the Great Dane, though neither are going to get adequate excercise in an apartment - small or large. Most dogs are also not going to get adequate exercise in a large house, even one with a fenced yard. At least the Jack Russell could jump and run inside the apartment, something a Great Dane could not. The OP mentioned a dog that did not even have space to WAG HIS TAIL without knocking things around. Jack Russells are precious, spastic little dogs, and I know of one that lives in a large trailer. He also gets tons of walks and runs, but when I enter this friend's place he can still jump straight up in the air as they love to do and lick my face, etc. Cramping a Great Dane up in a place so small he cannot wag his tail is cruel. > If you were god, would you deny a dog to someone based solely on the square footage of their home? Yes. > So, my answer to your sensationalist "My God, who would keep a > Great Dane in a small apt?" stands. Why not? Because the dog will suffer during the time that he is cooped up in there. Sincemost people work, he would find himself cramped and confined for at least 8 hours a day--then another while the human sleeps. That is why not. > We're talking about Great Danes in small apartments. .......yep, and since I was the one who brought it up, I'll tell you that I met this person with a great dane out walking his dog. He was a happy and fit dog. I don't understand your beef. If you're willing to make sure your dogs get enough exercise, it doesn't matter where you live. If the apartment is big enough for a person, it's big enough for a great dane. buglady take out the dog before replying > > We're talking about Great Danes in small apartments. > > > .......yep, and since I was the one who brought it up, I'll tell you that I met this person with a great dane out walking his dog. He was a happy and fit dog. I don't understand your beef. If you're willing to make sure your > dogs get enough exercise, it doesn't matter where you live. If the apartment is big enough for a person, it's big enough for a great dane. Oh, of course, how silly of me. You described the dog's tail as "battered." I think you need to go live in a shipping carton for a while and see how you feel. > .........what you're really saying is that you prefer not to use your time > exercising a dog - not that it's impossible to give a big dog the needed > exercise. If you had 2-3 hours a day, every day, 365 days a year, you might be able to give the dog the exercise it needed. I don't believe it is possible to give them the exercise they need in any lesser time. I also, quite frankly, think it is cruel to keep a large animal locked up in a small house or apartment for the other 21 hours a day. >> .........what you're really saying is that you prefer not to use your time >> exercising a dog - not that it's impossible to give a big dog the needed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >give the dog the exercise it needed. I don't believe it is possible to give >them the exercise they need in any lesser time. Most dogs don't need 2 - 3 hours of exercise a day. Mine certainly don't, and Great Danes don't either. Mustang Sally > >> .........what you're really saying is that you prefer not to use your time > >> exercising a dog - not that it's impossible to give a big dog the needed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Mustang Sally They do need to be able to stretch out and move and wag their damned TAILS without knocking something off a table during the approximately 16 hours of 24 that most people are sleeping and working. Period. > They do need to be able to stretch out and move and wag their damned TAILS > without knocking something off a table during the approximately 16 hours of > 24 that most people are sleeping and working. Period. So, your dogs walk around wagging their tail when people are not around or sleeping? Not my experience at all. That not withstanding, I have a 2800 sq. ft. house. My Dane wags her tail the most when she's around her people (understandably so, I hope), and where we are, is usually surrounded by furniture. A *vast* majority of the time, I cringe, because I am afraid she's going to break her tail open with all that wagging, banging against the couch, the coffee table, the kitchen cabinets, our bed, etc. The worst is when we come home, however. The entry from the garage to the house is through the laundry area, and there are all sorts of things there for her to bang into. Moral of the story is that Dane tails hitting stuff has nothing to do with the size of the house. It may however have something to do with the amount of stuff you have in the house. In the interest of protecting my girl's tail, I should perhaps get rid of all that furniture, th electronic gizmos and that pesky washer and dryer. Suja > > They do need to be able to stretch out and move and wag their damned TAILS > > without knocking something off a table during the approximately 16 hours of > > 24 that most people are sleeping and working. Period. > > So, your dogs walk around wagging their tail when people are not around or sleeping? Not my experience at all. Oh my god, how lame is that? lol! > That not withstanding, I have a 2800 sq. ft. house. My Dane wags her tail the most when she's around her people (understandably so, I hope), and where we are, is usually surrounded by furniture. Aha! So I guess you have been very observant when you are NOT AROUND to note whether she wags her tail! How brilliant. > Aha! So I guess you have been very observant when you are NOT AROUND to note > whether she wags her tail! How brilliant. I am around when I am sleeping. When I am sleeping, she's sleeping. Oh, and there is this handy little invention called a webcam. My Dane sleeps on the bed when I'm gone, my furry dog sleeps in the basement until 3;00 PM, then goes upstairs and sits by the window. Suja Suja said in alt.med.veterinary: > Oh, and there is this handy little invention called a webcam. Heh. I used a webcam after Murphy died and wasn't around to keep the young ones in line. My spying showed that they spent much of the morning searching for food and general sniffing, and the rest of the day sleeping. A little bit of play in the way of bitey-face, but no exercise. Yet they play together often while I'm home. Go figure. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. >Suja said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >A little bit of play in the way of bitey-face, but no exercise. But Matt, that searching for food and sniffing is valuable exercise! Mustang Sally > But Matt, that searching for food and sniffing is valuable exercise! .........No, no, I am soooooo sorry, but a dog can't possibly exercise in a 650 sq ft house. Tsk. buglady takeout the dog before replying > > Aha! So I guess you have been very observant when you are NOT AROUND to note whether she wags her tail! How brilliant. > I am around when I am sleeping. When I am sleeping, she's sleeping. > Oh, and there is this handy little invention called a webcam. My Dane sleeps on the bed when I'm gone, my furry dog sleeps in the basement until 3;00 PM, then goes upstairs and sits by the window. Lame, lame, lame. Had you recorded your dog you would have mentioned it. Pretty sad. > Lame, lame, lame. Had you recorded your dog you would have mentioned it. > Pretty sad. Why? I told you that I knew my dogs weren't walking around wagging their tails off when I am sleeping or not home. You conveniently ignored the part about the sleeping, and asked how I knew what they were doing while I wasn't home. I gave you a simple answer. Here is a recap: You: They do need to be able to stretch out and move and wag their damned TAILS without knocking something off a table during the approximately 16 hours of 24 that most people are sleeping and working. Period. ME: So, your dogs walk around wagging their tail when people are not around or sleeping? Not my experience at all. YOU: Oh my god, how lame is that? lol! YOU: Aha! So I guess you have been very observant when you are NOT AROUND to note whether she wags her tail! How brilliant. ME: I am around when I am sleeping. When I am sleeping, she's sleeping. Oh, and there is this handy little invention called a webcam. My Dane sleeps on the bed when I'm gone, my furry dog sleeps in the basement until 3;00 PM, then goes upstairs and sits by the window. YOU: Lame, lame, lame. Had you recorded your dog you would have mentioned it. Pretty sad. It is very convenient, how you ignore people who know for a fact what it is their dogs do when you think they should be walking around, wagging their tail. Suja >Large dogs need lots of exercise, more than most adults are able to >accompany them on. It's not the size, it's the breed. For example, compare Mastiffs and Border Collies. Mastiff's are huge but have very low exercise requirements while BCs are the exact opposite. In fact, many of the large breeds are a really good choice for city dwellers (if the couch is big enough <g>), and many of the small ones are a poor choice. > >Large dogs need lots of exercise, more than most adults are able to > >accompany them on. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (if the couch is big enough <g>), and many of the small ones are a poor > choice. And we're still talking about Great Danes in small apartments. >And we're still talking about Great Danes in small apartments. I'm the second person you've said that to. Not sure why. Are you suggesting we're off topic? > >And we're still talking about Great Danes in small apartments. > > I'm the second person you've said that to. Not sure why. Are you > suggesting we're off topic? No, I'd just like to know what more people think about the specific issue that was raised. As far as I can see, asking why NOT keep a huge dog in a tiny apartment is a stupid question. But I am open to new ideas. Mary said in alt.med.veterinary: > As far as I can see, asking why NOT keep a huge dog in a > tiny apartment is a stupid question. A question which you haven't bothered to appropriately answer. You don't seem to understand that big dog doesn't necessarily equate to big exercise. I'd rather keep a Great Dane or Greyhound than a much smaller Jack Russel Terrier in a small apartment. You've been told repeatedly that the size of one's home and the size of one's dog has absolutely nothing to do with the size of one's commitment to exercise them. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > Mary said in alt.med.veterinary: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You've been told repeatedly that the size of one's home and the > size of one's dog has absolutely nothing to do with the size of one's commitment to exercise them. Yes, and I disagree. Mary said in alt.med.veterinary: >> You've been told repeatedly that the size of one's home >> and the size of one's dog has absolutely nothing to do >> with the size of one's commitment to exercise them. > Yes, and I disagree. You've made it clear that you're operating from a point of ignorance with regards to dogs. I don't mean that as an insult, since there are many who confuse this issue; it's still a point worth addressing. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > No, I'd just like to know what more people think about the specific issue > that was raised. As far as I can see, asking why NOT keep a huge dog in a > tiny apartment is a stupid question. But I am open to new ideas. .......no one said the apt was tiny, I said it was small. buglady take out the dog before replying >> Ashley said in alt.med.veterinary: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >around and playing sans humans. I don't believe most yards are big enough >for that, and apartments most certainly aren't. 1) The amount of exercise dogs need is not necessarily determined by their size. For example, a Dalmatian needs considerably more exercise than a Greyhound, or an Irish Wolfhound. Great Danes do not require an especially large amount of exercise. 2) For a sighthound, such as the aforementioned Greyhound or Irish Wolfhound, there is no yard large enough to allow the dog to run full out. That certainly doesn't mean that such dogs can't or shouldn't be kept as companions 3) Often, only dogs do not run around and play sans humans. Dogs that live together often play together, but dogs that live only with humans often require interaction with those humans to get them running around and playing. 4) There are other, often better, ways to exercise dogs besides turning them out into a fenced yard. Mustang Sally > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:28:07 +1300, "Ashley" > 4) There are other, often better, ways to exercise dogs besides > turning them out into a fenced yard. Let me make one thing utterly clear: I am not suggesting dogs get *sufficient* exercise by being allowed to run, or walk, around a large yard. All dogs still need taking for walks, and preferably be taken somewhere where they can run off the lead as well. What I am suggesting is that, given the time constraints most people live under, it is pretty close to impossible to give large dogs all the exercise they need through supervised walks, and that having a large area at home to walk and run around at the dog's leisure is necessary to supplement this. >What I am suggesting is that, given >the time constraints most people live under, it is pretty close to >impossible to give large dogs all the exercise they need through supervised >walks, and that having a large area at home to walk and run around at the >dog's leisure is necessary to supplement this. Again, size is not the key issue. You've been given several examples that demonstrate this. I certainly agree with you that dogs should not be cooped up in a house (or anywhere else) with no exercise, but the fact is that many large dogs need less exercise than smaller ones. Size just isn't the factor you seem to think it is. > >What I am suggesting is that, given > >the time constraints most people live under, it is pretty close to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > less exercise than smaller ones. Size just isn't the factor you seem to > think it is. That is not her point. Everyone knows that different dogs need different amounts and types of exercise. The fact remains that a larger dog need more space to do *everthing* dogs do. You are at work for 8 hours and asleep for another 8. And during that 16 hours per day the large dog cannot even wag his tale, let alone do a little lap around the room. Jesus Christ, you and Rocky's owner have quite the flawed grasp of the painfully obvious. >"Carey Gregory" <tiredofspam123@comcast.net> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >That is not her point. Then why does she keep saying it? >Everyone knows that different dogs need different >amounts and types of exercise. The fact remains that a larger dog need more >space to do *everthing* dogs do. You are at work for 8 hours and asleep for >another 8. And during that 16 hours per day the large dog cannot even wag >his tale, let alone do a little lap around the room. Jesus Christ, you and >Rocky's owner have quite the flawed grasp of the painfully obvious. No, I have a flawed grasp of the rooms you're talking about. No apartment I've ever seen was so small that a large dog couldn't wag his tail or do a little lap around the room. Hyperbole seems to be getting the best of you. But mainly, I fail to see the superiority of a dog cooped up and left alone in a huge mansion vs. one cooped up and left alone in a tiny apartment. Either way they lay around and sleep and get no exercise. > >"Carey Gregory" <tiredofspam123@comcast.net> wrote in message > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I've ever seen was so small that a large dog couldn't wag his tail or do a > little lap around the room. Hyperbole seems to be getting the best of you. This was the example that resulted in my comment. The OP actually said the dog could not wag its tail without knocking something over. Have you read the thread? > where they can run off the lead as well. What I am suggesting is that, given > the time constraints most people live under, it is pretty close to > impossible to give large dogs all the exercise they need through supervised > walks, That's YOUR impression of it. IOW, you don't think you can do it, but that doesn't mean that other people can't. Let me see if I can shed some light on this for you. My husband runs his own business, and spends anywhere between 10-16 hours a day working. At the same time, I was working a full time job, doing my post graduate degree part time, and helped my husband with his business. When he had to go out of town for business travel, I managed to do all of the above, and give my dogs the stimulation they needed. Yeah, it meant that I got a little less sleep than normal, but so what? Between the two of us, we provide a pretty good exercise routine for the dogs. And lest you think I don't have big dogs, or a Great Dane, I have a shepherd/Malamute mix (90 lbs) and a Great Dane (120 lbs.). I am also pretty sure that I'd rather deal with meeting their exercise needs than that of a Jack Russell or a Border Collie. Suja >> where they can run off the lead as well. What I am suggesting is that, >> given the time constraints most people live under, it is pretty close to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > or a Great Dane, I have a shepherd/Malamute mix (90 lbs) and a Great Dane > (120 lbs.). You sound like a superwoman, and I'm pleased for you that you're able to achieve all that. Most people would find that extraordinarily difficult. > You sound like a superwoman, I won't argue with that. > and I'm pleased for you that you're able to > achieve all that. Most people would find that extraordinarily difficult. I volunteer with the local German Shepherd rescue, and we have successfully adopted dogs to people who live in apartments. I am familiar with two all-breed rescues, the Lab rescue, the Sheltie rescue, the Rottie rescue and the Doberman rescue, and all adopt to people living in apartments. Heck, even the local Dane rescue that won't adopt to me because my yard is not fenced in would adopt to people who live in apartments. So, I am hardly alone in being able to "pull this off". I know you said upthread that you have answered the 'Do you have any dogs?' question. I couldn't find the answer anywhere in this thread, so please answer this. Do you have any dogs? If yes, what kind of dogs? Suja > Do you have any dogs? If yes, what kind of dogs? Meant to rephrase. Have you ever had any dogs? If yes, what kind? Suja >> Do you have any dogs? If yes, what kind of dogs? > > Meant to rephrase. Have you ever had any dogs? If yes, what kind? Oops, and sorry, my parents' dog was a refugee from the pound, but the general concensus was that she was a german shepherd terrier cross. > Oops, and sorry, my parents' dog was a refugee from the pound, but the > general concensus was that she was a german shepherd terrier cross. So, you have no Dane experience. If you lived with one, you'd know just how likely it is that a GSD/Terrier mix is a whole lot more active than a Dane. My Dane sleeps a lot and runs and plays a lot. However, she won't do the latter if I am not out there with her. If I leave the door open for her, she'll run out and do her business if she has to, and walk right back in. If not, she'll stand at the threshold, look outside, look back at me to ask if I'm going out, and will just get back on the couch if I don't go out with her. Suja >> Oops, and sorry, my parents' dog was a refugee from the pound, but the >> general concensus was that she was a german shepherd terrier cross. > > So, you have no Dane experience. If you lived with one, you'd know just > how likely it is that a GSD/Terrier mix is a whole lot more active than a > Dane. And retrievers? I have no reason to doubt what you say about Danes, but still, quite honestly, keeping them in an apartment in that is disproportionately small for their size appears cruel to me. As Mary has pointed out, they actually don't have the proportionate room to move in. No matter how lethargic a dog may or may not be, I maintain it needs room to move in freely proportionate to its size. And what about stimulation when it's left alone. If a dog is left in an apartment alone, without much room to move, of course it's gonna laze around doing stuff all - I mean, what is there to do? What birds are there to bark at, bones to chew at leisure without messing up its owners floor, boundaries to sniff for whatever animals may have visited overnight .. > My Dane sleeps a lot and runs and plays a lot. However, she won't do the > latter if I am not out there with her. If I leave the door open for her, > she'll run out and do her business if she has to, and walk right back in. > If not, she'll stand at the threshold, look outside, look back at me to > ask if I'm going out, and will just get back on the couch if I don't go > out with her. Obviously she's very attached to you! The dogs I have lived with have never been like that. Yes, they hang around the humans inside the house and enjoy their company, but they've also quite liked exploring to see what new smells are around the section, chase the neighbour's cat back to where it belongs, bark at birds for the sake of it, carry their favourite ball from one part of the yard to another for no apparent reason other than it's there ... > "Suja" <spanaval@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in message > And retrievers? Are you serious? The dogs in the retrieving group are also high energy dogs. I would strongly suggest that you get out and meet some Danes. > to its size. And what about stimulation when it's left alone. If a dog is > left in an apartment alone, without much room to move, of course it's gonna > laze around doing stuff all - That has *nothing* to do with it. A mellow dog will most likely do nothing no matter what the size of the house. For proof, see: http://photos.yahoo.com/spanaval You get a feel for what a certain dog's favorite activity is, don't you? > I mean, what is there to do? What birds are > there to bark at, bones to chew at leisure without messing up its owners > floor, boundaries to sniff for whatever animals may have visited overnight My dogs stay *inside* when they are home alone. Heck, they choose to stay inside when I'm home with them. It is unsafe to let them roam around outside when no one is around to keep an eye on them. Oh, and mine don't bark at birds. I would consider that nuisance barking, because there are tons of birds around, and the neighbors certainly won't appreciate that. My dogs chew bones. They have their designated spot with towels on which to chew their bones. What does that have to do with an apartment? > Obviously she's very attached to you! That's how Danes are. They're very velcro, people oriented dogs. > The dogs I have lived with have never > been like that. Yes, they hang around the humans inside the house and enjoy > their company, but they've also quite liked exploring to see what new smells > are around the section This one rarely ventures more than 20 ft. from me. I once accidentally locked her out (my husband had let her out, and I didn't know), and came back 5 minutes later to find a big dog standing with her nose glued to the door. > chase the neighbour's cat back to where it belongs, Not allowed. Not to mention, this one is good with cats and won't chase them. > bark at birds for the sake of it, carry their favourite ball from one part > of the yard to another for no apparent reason other than it's there ... Balls and other toys are only interesting if I am there to make it interesting. I happen to be the most interesting thing in her universe. And, I have it on good authority that my Dane is not in the least bit exceptional in that respect. Suja >>> Oops, and sorry, my parents' dog was a refugee from the pound, but the >>> general concensus was that she was a german shepherd terrier cross. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >And retrievers? Ah yes, retrievers. Different breed, which is what I've been trying to say from the beginning. It's not the size, it's the breed. I've got two retrievers, by the way. Owned them since 1987. The thing is, a retriever in a tiny apartment that gets plenty of attention and exercise is probably a happy, healthy dog. A retriever who's left alone and neglected in a huge mansion is probably an unhappy, fat dog. >I have no reason to doubt what you say about Danes, but still, quite >honestly, keeping them in an apartment in that is disproportionately small >for their size appears cruel to me. As Mary has pointed out, they actually >don't have the proportionate room to move in. No, what Mary said is there's an apartment somewhere in the world so small that a Dane can't wag it's tail or walk around the room. Maybe I'm just naive about living conditions elsewhere, but I have a hard time envisioning rooms a human can live in but a Dane can't. Mainly, I think you both need to lighten up on the hyperbole a bit. >No matter how lethargic a dog >may or may not be, I maintain it needs room to move in freely proportionate >to its size. Of course, but where are these incredibly tiny abodes you speak of? >And what about stimulation when it's left alone. If a dog is >left in an apartment alone, without much room to move, of course it's gonna >laze around doing stuff all - I mean, what is there to do? What birds are >there to bark at, bones to chew at leisure without messing up its owners >floor, boundaries to sniff for whatever animals may have visited overnight It seems your complaint is about neglect, not size of the room. On that point we agree completely. >Obviously she's very attached to you! The dogs I have lived with have never >been like that. Yes, they hang around the humans inside the house and enjoy >their company, but they've also quite liked exploring to see what new smells >are around the section, chase the neighbour's cat back to where it belongs, >bark at birds for the sake of it, carry their favourite ball from one part >of the yard to another for no apparent reason other than it's there ... Sounds like retrievers. So what other breeds have you lived with? Ever tried to convince a Mastiff to get off the couch and go *do* something? Like I said, I think your complaint is about neglect, not size of the dog or the place. > Sounds like retrievers. So what other breeds have you lived with? As I pointed out in an earlier post, German Shepherd and German Shepherd cross Ever > tried to convince a Mastiff to get off the couch and go *do* something? > > Like I said, I think your complaint is about neglect, not size of the dog > or > the place. Well it may be. I consider leaving a dog in an enclosed environment with little external stimulation or room to move for 10 hours at a time (ie while the owners' are working and travelling to and from work) neglect. Having a decent fenced yard, that fully contains the dog but allows them to experience other things going on and run around a bit should the urge overtake, means there is external stimulation and stuff to do. They can chase the sparrow off the lawn and all the other things I have mentioned in earlier posts. In a small apartment, they can do nothing. Now if the owner isn't out for that period of time, and is prepared to spend lots of time outside taking the dog for exercise, I would not consider it abuse. I would however, consider it less than ideal. As I also said in an earlier post, I think there's a cultural difference going on here. I can't actually think of New Zealanders ever agreeing that it's OK to keep a large dog in a home without easy (ie open the door and there you are) access to the outdoors. When you understand that the concept of indoor-only cats is seen as, well, rather unusual here, you might understand that! Americans, however, seem to consider the latter the norm, and obviously are more accepting of having dogs in apartments. >Well it may be. I consider leaving a dog in an enclosed environment with >little external stimulation or room to move for 10 hours at a time (ie while >the owners' are working and travelling to and from work) neglect. I do too, but as has been pointed out repeatedly, any place large enough for a human to move is large enough for a dog to do the same. >Having a >decent fenced yard, that fully contains the dog but allows them to >experience other things going on and run around a bit should the urge >overtake, means there is external stimulation and stuff to do. I would point out that dogs in a fenced yard can be stolen, poisoned, teased, harassed, hung on fences, caught under fences, or any number of other things. They can also escape if someone happens along and leaves the gate open. Do you ever leave your dogs out in a fenced yard with collars on? I once had one of my dogs nearly strangled to death when another dog it was playing with got her collar twisted tightly around his muzzle. If I hadn't been there to cut the collar free, she would have been dead in minutes. All of these things can and do happen to dogs in fenced yards, so it's not just paranoia. There are two sides to every coin. I've got a decent-sized fenced yard, but when we're away we don't leave them outside for the simple reason that they're less safe. My wife works from home, so our dogs are never left alone for hours at a stretch, but if she did work outside the home, I wouldn't leave them outside all day. >As I also said in an earlier post, I think there's a cultural difference >going on here. I can't actually think of New Zealanders ever agreeing that >it's OK to keep a large dog in a home without easy (ie open the door and >there you are) access to the outdoors. That's true of "most" Americans too, but it doesn't mean large dogs can't live long, happy lives in small dwellings. Fact is, millions of them can and do. >When you understand that the concept >of indoor-only cats is seen as, well, rather unusual here, you might >understand that! Americans, however, seem to consider the latter the norm, >and obviously are more accepting of having dogs in apartments. Well, maybe New Zealanders are unaware that the average life expectancy for outdoor cats is about 3-5 years as compared to 14 years for indoor cats. > Well, maybe New Zealanders are unaware that the average life expectancy > for > outdoor cats is about 3-5 years as compared to 14 years for indoor cats. It might just do you to check where those figures come from. My two outdoor cats are both approaching 10 as I type. >> Well, maybe New Zealanders are unaware that the average life expectancy >> for >> outdoor cats is about 3-5 years as compared to 14 years for indoor cats. > >It might just do you to check where those figures come from. My two outdoor >cats are both approaching 10 as I type. Congratulations. Do you understand how averages work? > Congratulations. Do you understand how averages work? Yes - and the average for the US would be vastly different for the average of NZ, so I will not accept American averages. We don't have coyotes, racoons or rabies. We don't have any wildlife that threatens cats. I, for one, will not live anywhere where the traffic risk to my cats is too high. Most cat owners take the same approach You might like reading this. It is instructive reading for both sides of the debate, and it's made me realise that "indoor-only" American evangelists are not complete arseholes (which they most definitely can seem to people from other countries with different environments who are reading these groups), they are simply relating their experience of how they care for cats within their environment. http://www.messybeast.com/indooroutdoor.htm You may be interested to know that my vet surgery has a surgery cat. On the door as you go out is a sign asking you to please check your car before you drive off because the cat likes to travel. This is a highly respected, tertiary care surgery. >Yes - and the average for the US would be vastly different for the average >of NZ, so I will not accept American averages. We don't have coyotes, >racoons or rabies. We don't have any wildlife that threatens cats. I, for >one, will not live anywhere where the traffic risk to my cats is too high. >Most cat owners take the same approach So, there are no dogs or large birds of prey in New Zealand? Interestingly, if you search google for "new zealand AND wildlife AND predators" you'll find that cats are a major problem as predators of penguins and various species of birds. We have the same problem here in the US. My point being that indoor cats don't become prey _or_ predators as outdoor cats do. I'm not an evangelist about this, and don't condemn either choice, but I think it's pretty unmistakable that indoor cats are likely to live longer, healthier lives than outdoor cats no matter where they are. >You may be interested to know that my vet surgery has a surgery cat. On the >door as you go out is a sign asking you to please check your car before you >drive off because the cat likes to travel. This is a highly respected, >tertiary care surgery. My neighbor once started his car on a cold winter morning, and heard a terrible screeching sound. He shut off the engine and opened the hood to find a badly mutilated cat tangled in the fan belt. |
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