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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / January 2005stump pyometra
In spaying, how common is it for a portion of the uterus to be left which might develop pyometra? Some references talk as tho this happened only rarely, by oversight. Other references talk as though some stump were normally left. Are there different procedures involved, one of which normally leaves a stump? If so, what would be the reason for using that method? TIA, Joan > In spaying, how common is it for a portion of the uterus to be left which > might develop pyometra? Some references talk as tho this happened only > rarely, by oversight. Other references talk as though some stump were > normally left. > Are there different procedures involved, one of which normally leaves a > stump? If so, what would be the reason for using that method? Actually, pyometra is quite rare if the ovaries are completely removed(pyometra being mostly stimulated by hormonal changes), and this is the reason why some surgeons removed only ovaries and leave the entire uterus inside. Other removed entire uterus and leave cervix inside, while some remove cervix as well. I don't think leaving a stump should do any harm, unless the castration was being done as treatment of pyometra. In that situation it is dangerous to leave a stump as it may contain pus as well. > > In spaying, how common is it for a portion of the uterus to be left which > > might develop pyometra? Some references talk as tho this happened only [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > uterus inside. Other removed entire uterus and leave cervix inside, while > some remove cervix as well. When a breeder wants a sexually active female for 'sterile mating' to keep his toms happy (female equivalent of a 'teaser tom'), one or both ovaries would need to be retained. In this case, is there a procedure that normally leaves no stump or other uterine tissue? Margaret S. > In spaying, how common is it for a portion of the uterus to be left which > might develop pyometra? Some references talk as tho this happened only [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > TIA, > Joan What I was taught, in a U.S. vet school, and what I've read in most text books, is to remove the uterus just above the cervix, so you are leaving the cervix itself. Inevitably though there is going to be a little bit of uterine tissue, where you have tied your ligatures. Depending on how many ligatures you tie, and where exactly you place them, you might wind up with a bit more or less uterine tissue with different surgeons. In my personal opinion, it would be more unusual to NOT have a bit of a "stump" left. But still, we very very rarely see stump pyometra (I've never seen it in 8 yrs of practice), simply because you usually have removed all the ovarian tissue, and don't have the hormones that are responsible for pyometra (in general). Deborah, DVM >> In spaying, how common is it for a portion of the uterus to be left which >> might develop pyometra? Some references talk as tho this happened only [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the > cervix itself. Why do you leave the cervix? Just curious. > >> In spaying, how common is it for a portion of the uterus to be left which > >> might develop pyometra? Some references talk as tho this happened only [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Why do you leave the cervix? Just curious. no idea, it's just what we were taught! :-) I presume it has something to do with not accidentally incorporating the bladder/ureters/urethra into your sutures. Deborah, DVM > no idea, it's just what we were taught! :-) This, IME, is why we do most things :-) I presume it has something > to do with not accidentally incorporating the bladder/ureters/urethra into > your sutures. > > Deborah, DVM Joan wrote: <snip> Gee, "Joan Marianne Margaret", why are you posting using one fake identity and then posting in this same thread using yet another fake identity? Megan  Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Joan wrote: > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Megan Megan, do you think Margaret hurts animals? >Megan, do you think Margaret hurts >animals? Since she claims she "spays, but leaves the ovaries" of all her female cats, and this forces them to live a miserable life of repeated heats and ever increasing risk of cancers and stump pyometra, yes I do. I suspect that's just the tip of the iceberg. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >Megan, do you think Margaret hurts > >animals? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Megan I kind of wonder about her too. She says she is not a breeder. Why subject the cats to heat? /snip/ > She says she is not > a breeder. Why subject the cats to heat? When people say things like this, it often turns out that they are thinking of heat periods when the cat is PREVENTED from mating, as heat without mating is in fact stressful. When a pair of cats peacefully share an indoor/outdoor home and the male is right there for the female as soon as she goes in heat, and no one tries to keep them separate, there need be no stress of calling and waiting. My females never needed to spray, sfaik; certainly they never sprayed in the house. Mine finished their mating in a day or two, without stress. After mating, my cats showed no sign of 'false pregnancy', but iirc they could go anywhere from 6 months to 2 months between heats, depending on the weather and other factors. The shortest interval I have heard of, was a breeder's cat, brought out of heat each time by 'sterile matings', who iirc stayed out about three weeks between heats; she was mating with a vasectomied tom ('teaser tom'). Margaret S. SignatureWho is speaking of "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries", not of tubal ligation. Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. Quick clarification here: /snip/ > After mating, my ["remove the uterus but leave the ovaries"] cats showed no sign of 'false pregnancy', but iirc they could go anywhere from 6 months to 2 months between heats, depending on the weather and other factors. > The shortest interval I have heard of [for cats allowed to mate], was a breeder's cat, brought out of heat each time by 'sterile matings', who iirc stayed out about three weeks between heats; she was [an intact breeding queen] mating with a vasectomied tom ('teaser tom'). Margaret S. >Why subject the cats to heat? Because in Marianne/Joan/Margaret's warped and ignorant world she believes that "if you've been putting off spaying because of personality change, you can avoid that by telling the vet "spay but leave the ovaries." Then she keeps her natural personality." Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >Why subject the cats to heat? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Megan What do the vets say about this? >What do vets say about this? They say that ovariohysterectomy doesn't change a cat's personality. I'd say the UC Davis Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital is a very reliable source: http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/home/beh/feline_behavior/spay.html Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray /snip/ > What do the vets say about this? Good question. That's the bottom line. If leaving both full ovaries when the uterus is removed really made a significant difference in danger of a serious stump pyometra, then it seems that some vet would have mentioned that tidbit of news to me. In 40 years, on 3 US coasts, I've had this surgery performed by perhaps 10 different veterinarians; none seemed unfamiliar with this method or reluctant to do it. One said other customers preferred keeping one ovary not both. (One vet made a pass at me. :) 40 years ago I asked a vet about tubal ligation and explained that I wanted my cat to keep her natural personality and continue mating. For my purpose he recommended removing the uterus but leaving the ovaries ('non-ovario-hysterectomy') rather than tubal ligation, saying that removing the uterus would prevent possible uterus problems later. It worked fine, so I used non-ovario-hysterectomy with quite a few other cats and dogs over the years. None of my animals got mammary tumors -- nor did they get any kind of pyometra or other reproductive system problems. Nor did they have false pregnancies. They came in heat about as often as before, mated, finished the heat quickly. They had no serious on-going health problems of any kind. Maybe it's a fluke -- lucky in my animals' genes and in my vets. :) Or maybe it's that animals who get to mate promptly whenever they go in heat, are less likely to get a stump pyometra even with full ovaries. Other theories welcome. But I do find that telling people about a non-desexing method gets a lot of people to stop producing litters, who would never agree to conventional spaying. If there are ways to adjust the non-desexing surgery to minimize risk of stump pyometra, I'd like to know about them. If tubal ligation is in fact just as good as "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries", I'd like to know that too, as tubal ligation is what most people begin by asking about. Margaret S. who hopes she has finally got the defaults set right for this ng "Margaret S." <email@withheld.com> wrote : > If there are ways to adjust the non-desexing surgery to minimize > risk of stump pyometra, I'd like to know about them. Do you consider women who have had complete hysterectomies "desexed?" My sister had one at age 25 and she didn't seem different at all. My cats are still very "girly," sans ovaries. Are you actually saying that an animal loses its gender when it loses its "package," so to speak? > "Margaret S." <email@withheld.com> wrote : > > > If there are ways to adjust the non-desexing surgery to minimize > > risk of stump pyometra, I'd like to know about them. /snip/ > Are you actually saying that an animal loses its gender > when it loses its "package," so to speak? I've seen 'desexing a female animal' defined as removal of both ovaries (and any stray ovarian tissue, I presume). That is the sense in which I'm using the term. Margaret S. SignatureNothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > > "Margaret S." <email@withheld.com> wrote : > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > any stray ovarian tissue, I presume). That is the sense in which I'm using > the term. Okay. Now tell me why you would rather not remove your cats' ovaries along with their uteri. > My cats are still very "girly," sans ovaries. Are you actually saying > that an animal loses its gender when it loses its "package," so to speak? Words have gender. Animals (including people) have sex. And animals that have their testicles or ovaries removed exhibit greatly reduced sexual behavior. That's the main reason we geld male horses. SignatureJohn Hasler john@dhh.gt.org Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI USA > > My cats are still very "girly," sans ovaries. Are you actually saying > > that an animal loses its gender when it loses its "package," so to speak? > > Words have gender. Animals (including people) have sex. Right you are. Thanks. >And animals that > have their testicles or ovaries removed exhibit greatly reduced sexual > behavior. That's the main reason we geld male horses. Okay. So this means there is a reason Margaret wants her cats to go into heat, and the reason is not breeding. Margaret, can you tell us why you want your female cats to go into heat when they can no longer breed, e.g. no longer have wombs? /snip/ > >And animals that > > have their testicles or ovaries removed exhibit greatly reduced sexual > > behavior. That's the main reason we geld male horses. > Okay. So this means there is a reason Margaret wants her cats to go > into heat, and the reason is not breeding. Margaret, can you tell > us why you want your female cats to go into heat when they can > no longer breed, e.g. no longer have wombs? I'm not going to risk disrupting alt.med.veterinary (or anywhere else on Usenet) by attracting the usual woo-woo flamers. I'm working on my website today so I just put up a page where we can talk about this issue if you insist -- and anyone else who is interested and can remain civil and rational. :) I've put a link "Note to Mary Smith about desexing" on the first page after the entry page. But I'd really so much rather see more discussion on the thread topic -- technical aspects of various surgical alternatives as related to stump pyometra. Or incidence of stump pyometra in animals who accidentally had an ovarian fragment left and were allowed to continue mating. There must be a few such cases when the owner said: "Don't open her up again. She's not having babies, she and her mate are happy, we'll live with the fragment and the mating." (My animals came in heat about as often as before, not 'continuously'.) -- Hm, for that matter, I'd love to have some knowledgeable remarks on *those* issues on my site! Margaret S. Signaturehttp://www.sangerfan.com Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. > /snip/ > > >And animals that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm not going to risk disrupting alt.med.veterinary (or anywhere else on > Usenet) by attracting the usual woo-woo flamers. 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