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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / January 2006



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heart murmur

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Nicole H - 06 Jan 2006 01:00 GMT
I took my 2yo bloodhound (from a bloodhound rescue group) to the vet and he
heard a heart murmur.  No congestion but the murmur is 3/6.
I only have experience with old dogs and congestive heart failure.
Can my dog, Maynard, live a normal life?  Can I take him running,
rollerblading, etc?  Of course, not overworking him.
I plan to start him on Coenzyme Q10.  Anything else to add?

Thanks for the help
Nicole

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buglady - 06 Jan 2006 01:36 GMT
> I took my 2yo bloodhound (from a bloodhound rescue group) to the vet and he
> heard a heart murmur.  No congestion but the murmur is 3/6.
> I only have experience with old dogs and congestive heart failure.
> Can my dog, Maynard, live a normal life?  Can I take him running,
> rollerblading, etc?  Of course, not overworking him.
> I plan to start him on Coenzyme Q10.  Anything else to add?

.......Isn't there a chance the dog will *grow out* of this murmur?  He's
pretty young.  And I wonder about the scoring too.  I've heard you can go to
3 different vets and get 3 different sets of numbers..  I think if you
really want to know how the heart is functioning that more definitive tests
would be in order.  Personally I'd also add fish body oil (like salmon oil),
taurine and L-carnitine.

buglady
take out the dog before replying
Nicole H - 09 Jan 2006 07:59 GMT
Thanks for the info. Do you have any dosages for the supplements?
Maynard is 100lbs and growing.  I hope he grows out of it but I don't know.
Nothing was said when we adopted him thru a rescue group.  He was neutered,
vaccinated and tested for heartworm.  BUT from the condition he came to us
in, I can't even say he had adequate nutrition much less vet care.
Nicole

>> I took my 2yo bloodhound (from a bloodhound rescue group) to the vet and
> he
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> buglady
> take out the dog before replying
buglady - 15 Jan 2006 14:04 GMT
> Thanks for the info. Do you have any dosages for the supplements?
> Maynard is 100lbs and growing.  I hope he grows out of it but I don't know.
> Nothing was said when we adopted him thru a rescue group.  He was
neutered, vaccinated and tested for heartworm.  BUT from the condition he
came to us
> in, I can't even say he had adequate nutrition much less vet care.

.........which might be why he has a heart murmur.  I'm not saying you can
turn this around with supplements, or that there's proof that it helps heart
murmurs, but it can't hurt, might help.  At the very least supplementation
provides the dog with the essentials to make a healthy heart.  Both taurine
and carnitine are only found in meat (also dairy for carnitine); some B
vitamins are necessary for the body to produce CoQ10 and taurine; Vit C
might be necessary to make taurine, so if this dog was on the short end of
the stick where food was concerned and is still growing, then perhaps good
grub may make a difference.  They are starting to consider taurine to be a
conditionally essential amino acid for dogs.

........This is the major site that talks about the use of supplements, but
unfortunately it's under construction for a new look and there's nothing
there right this minute, though perhaps Google cache might have something:
http://www.vetheart.com/index.html

Certainly there are some cases where supplementation of the amino acids
carnitine and taurine improve heart function (in this case it's a genetic
disorder):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
ds=9298474&dopt=Citation

....This review article will cost you 5 bucks for a 2 day access, but might
be worth it (better than the 25 bucks some other journals charge!):
Nutritional and Herbal Therapies in the Treatment of Heart Disease in Cats
and Dogs
Gompf J Am Anim Hosp Assoc.2005; 41: 355-367.
http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/full/41/6/355

Dr. Clemmons site on vitamins - don't think the aimno acids are listed, but
many supplements are:
http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/Alt_med/Library/Advisor/vitamin.html

Suggestions for supplementation of amino acids, fish oil, plus lots of
links:
http://www.dogaware.com/specific.html#heart

......From Complementary & Alternative Vet Med, Eds., Schoen and Wynn:
Ch 4, Robert Kendall
Suggestions for heart disease (dilated cardiomyopathy, congestive heart
failure, myocarditis) in dogs (ranges are for daily use - smallest to
largest dog):
Vit C 500-6,000 mg
Vit E 50-400 IU
CoQ10 20-100 mg
L-Carnitine 500-1000 mg
Taurine 100-1000 mg
Selenium 5-50 micrograms
Fish oil 250-1000 mg
Dimethylglycine 50-250 mg

........On the other hand if you want to focus on food, I'd add a small can
of sardines to this dog's food a few times a week, give an egg daily (can't
beat the nutritional value of egg plus it's a great source of B vitamins,
which are used in everywhere in the body), and some heart meat (raw) 3 or 4
times a week.  Taurine is destroyed (or made unavilable) by heat, so if
you're nervous about adding raw meat to your dog's diet, then use
supplements for taurine, L-carnitine.  If you supplement with fish oil, make
sure you also supplement with Vit E to keep the fish oil from oxidizing in
the body.

Sorry to take so long to answer this - it went in my draft file when I
didn't have time to finish it, and when it's out of sight, it's out of mind!

buglady
take out the dog before replying
Sandy Christmus, DVM - 06 Jan 2006 02:08 GMT
> I took my 2yo bloodhound (from a bloodhound rescue group) to the vet and he
> heard a heart murmur.  No congestion but the murmur is 3/6.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks for the help
> Nicole

Without further testing, it's hard to say what the prognosis is at this
time.  The murmur grading number isn't all that important in that it
doesn't truly correlate with severity of disease.  It's just a function
of how noisy the murmur is.  A severe heart defect may not produce a
murmur at all, or a small turbulent area in a chamber can produce a
3-4/6 murmur.  Is your dog new to you?  Has he had normal physical exams
in the past?  If this is his first exam with you, then it's possible he
has a congenital (from birth) murmur.  If a murmur has never been heard
before now, then he has an acquired murmur. The potential causes for
each of these scenarios are very different and the prognoses vary.

The best thing you can do for your pup is to get an echocardiogram
performed by a veterinary cardiologist or an experienced general
practitioner.  The echo is an ultrasound exam of the heart.  An
electrocardiogram (or EKG/ECG) may help make a diagnosis, too.  Chest
radiographs will probably be needed, too, to fully work up the murmur.
The echo will tell you what is actually causing the murmur and thusly
what can be done (if anything) and what activity level he can have in
addition to his long-term prognosis.

Depending on the cause of the murmur, your pup may live for years and
years with no problems until he's much older OR he may have a serious
problem now that will benefit from medical treatment to help improve his
survival time.  I'm sorry the range is so great, but the echo/rads/EKG
will, 99.9% of the time, give you what you need to know.

Regarding one of your replies, if a dog has a murmur he'll "grow out
of," it'll be gone in 4 months or so.  If a murmur remains after about 5
months, that's a permanent murmur (with many potential causes).

Good luck and please keep us posted,

Sandy Christmus, DVM
Nicole H - 06 Jan 2006 02:47 GMT
Thanks for the reply Sandy.
This is the dog's first exam with me.  He was neutered before we got him and
vaccinated but I really don't think he was taken care of.  He was supposed
to be in a foster care situation yet he was terribly underweight when he
arrived.  All his bones (hip points, vertebrae, shoulders, etc) could be
seen easily.  There was only a little muscle on his thighs.
His ears were filthy and he stunk SO badly.

His collar (a choke chain) was so tight, we had to get bolt cutters to take
it off.  It wouldn't slide off.  I was so upset at his condition.

Let me see if I understand... the number really doesn't mean anything except
how loud the murmur is.    In order to find out how severe/not severe the
murmur is, requires some indepth testing- cardiac ultrasound.
My vet is very experienced but not high tech so I would need to go
elsewhere.  He did say there was no congestion, his capillary refill is good
and besides the murmur, he would consider him to be healthy.

As for supplementing his food, he's fed Nutro Max large breed.  What do you
think about the Q10, fish oil, taurine and l-carnitine?

Thank you again
Nicole
Sandy Christmus, DVM - 07 Jan 2006 02:02 GMT
> Let me see if I understand... the number really doesn't mean anything except
> how loud the murmur is.    In order to find out how severe/not severe the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> As for supplementing his food, he's fed Nutro Max large breed.  What do you
> think about the Q10, fish oil, taurine and l-carnitine?

I think you understand perfectly.  Hopefully, you've got a veterinary
cardiologist nearby...that's the ideal situation.  I've done lots of
echocardiograms, but especially with younger dogs, I refer to the
cardiologist because the potential problems can be very subtle and
difficult to diagnose by a general practitioner.  I'm glad your dog's
cardiac function seems good.  I'd say 98% of dogs veterinarians diagnose
with a heart murmur are in your dog's situation - they're feeling fine,
have no outward signs and aren't in heart failure.  The good news is
that this is the time to diagnose him, not when he's going downhill.

I can't comment on the supplements.  L-carnitine may be useful in some
cardiac diseases, but not necessarily across the board.  The same goes
with CoQ10.  Fish oil's pretty harmless and may be of benefit.  I don't
know of any published studies looking at the efficacy of these
supplements in dogs with heart disease, so most of the info is anecdotal.

Sandy Christmus, DVM
Nicole H - 07 Jan 2006 05:28 GMT
Dr Sandy
Thanks again for your advice!
I'm in central CA.  I'm sure there's a cardiologist somewhere.... how far I
have to drive is another question.  But that's ok, I'm going to find one.

My pitbull has has congestive heart failure for the last 3 years and he's
been doing great on lasix 50mg bid and digoxin .125 bid.

Hopefully with Maynard, the bloodhound, his murmur isn't a problem.  I'm
keeping my fingers crossed.

Thanks again for your help
Nicole
>> Let me see if I understand... the number really doesn't mean anything
>> except how loud the murmur is.    In order to find out how severe/not
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Sandy Christmus, DVM
 
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