Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / March 2006

HOWEDY suzie-q,

Seems makin love to a animal is ILLEGAL but
jerkin chokin shocking beatin lockin them in
boxes and surgically mutilating and murderin
them is O.K. by you and your punk thug coward
active acute chronic long term incurable mental
case pals:

        "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
        news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
         >
         > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         > > When you compare using sound and
         > > praise to solve a problem with using
         > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
         > > how can you criticize the use of sound?

         > There's nothing more to be said, then.
         > You've made up your mind.

         > But you've impressed me by mentioning
         > that you're a professor with 30 years of
         > experience.

         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
         >> will often make the dog either aggressive
         >> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
         >> to do.
         >
         > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
         > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
         >
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
         > doubt, please provide a quote (an
         > original quote, not from one of Jerry
         > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
         > shows a regular poster promoting or
         > using an abusive form of training.
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >  What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
         >  which you have read so many.  While you're going
         >  through them, point out those which recommend
         >  shocking, and pinching, and beating.  Thank you.
         > --
         > -Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > Rocky wrote:
         > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
         > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
         > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
         > > is choking. It's never limited.
         >
         > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
         > Thank you for your contribution.
         >-
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >

         From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
         Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
         Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

         Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

        > I try really hard not to yell.  The times that I have, Solo
        > joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

        Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
        thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
        others' dogs at agility trials or training.
        --
        --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

                         ---------------

         Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
         and dog, especially when the human didn't
         see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
         Rocky's a Dog.

       From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
       Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
       Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

       Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

       > One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
       > is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
       > shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

       Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
       much to heart -- I'll try something different.  Right now, he's
       just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
       --
       --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

      From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
      Subject: Re: Leg Humper
      Date: 1999/09/14

      Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
      <37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

      > By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
      > suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
      > that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
      > the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
      > crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
      > you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
      > dealing with behavior problems.

      Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
      up until this last paragraph.

      Why did you blow it?

      --Matt

      From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
      Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
      Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

      Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

      > the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
      > run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT.   so what does
      > that say?

      I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants.  And
      sometimes my parents pretended not to notice.  In retrospect,
      that's pretty cool.
      --
      --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
         news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

         > Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

         > Ack.  You just gave him some moore ammunition.
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         "dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com> said in
         rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

         > choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
         > causing more harm than good.

         Back at you with flat buckle collars.  These are an
         incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
         of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
         with both hands.

         It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
         well-being and not an agenda.
         --
         --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

                   BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

   "Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
   choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
   stern correction" --Janet Boss

   "Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
   And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
   Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
   Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
   To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.

   "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
   A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
   Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
   Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
   He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

   captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
   ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
   The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
   Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."

   "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
   Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
   Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
   Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
   The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
   mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

   On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhealey@iastate.edu>,
   clicked their heels and said:

   > Does that include tone of voice?  Some tools are easier
   > to ban than others.

   yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up!  And I
   always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
   "honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
   --
   Janet B
   www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
   http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

   lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
   Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
   the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,  less tractable
   dogs may require you to progress to striking them
   more sharply

   Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
   the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
   Eventually, the dog will give in

   but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
   efforts to escaping the ear pinch

   You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
   instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
   and pinch the ear against that

   Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
   urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

   CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
   Right Hand,  As it catches on, try using the stick
   and no ear pinch.

   When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
   and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
   you are finished

   If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
   say "No! Hold!"

   (stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
   the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
   it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

   "Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
    professora gingold.

   terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
   "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
   something you twisted out of context, because you
   are full of bizarro manure."

       "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
       Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
       With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
       discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And  Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few  Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

        Rocky wrote:
        > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
        > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
        >
        > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would
        > > be the point? Where I come from, choking is choking.
        > > It's never limited.
        >
        >  So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
        >  Thank you for your contribution.
        > --
        > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
        >
        Deltones wrote:
        >
        > Rocky wrote:
        >
        > > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
        >
        > > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
        > > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
        > > > is choking. It's never limited.

Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.

        > > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
        > > Thank you for your contribution.
        > > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...

?

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

 lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
 For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
 pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to
 it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
 if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar,"  Lynn K.

          "Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

                  <except when it is>

     "Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
     just to be able to handle the dogs.  For example,
     we need to crate train a dog immediately because
     they are usually in need of medical care and they
     are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
     necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

          "Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

                  <except when it is>

    "So what?  Whoever said that it's right to
    always not confront?  We sure can try, but
    a dog who knows a command and growls when
    given it is certainly being confrontational".
    You can't simply walk away and pretend it
    didn't happen or leave it for later work in
    every situation." Lynn K.

              --------------------

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.)  But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

           ----------------

From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods

Mary Healey wrote:

THEM).  You're 0 for 2, so far.

That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:

Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.

Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?

E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.

So on with the fun.  Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005

Denis
                    ------------

one reason I call them slip collars.  Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------

And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.

---------

167. Janet B
 Jun 21, 12:03 pm   show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"

<Ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:

Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash?  I personally prefer prong collars.

----------

Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:

----------

141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm

I don't use choke chains.  Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link

on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty.    I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.

So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the  milder medium link).

But I use e-collars too.  With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer.  I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------

HOWEDY janet,

Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:

Janet B wrote:

.

       "Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
       professora gingold.

     "BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
     wrote in message
     news:v4r8kkfr257e1a@corp.supernews.com...

     Kyle,  FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
     and i often call my little dog the turd, because
     he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
     would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
     matter of personality.

     Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
     step on him once. Seriously.

"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63h8ekqiforibadrff2@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories.  The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.

        Sally Hennessey

Nope.  No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision.  Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.

Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.

It's all in the archives.

Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs.  Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate.  BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.

Here's janet's PARTNER:

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

sinofabitch writes:

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

That so?

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

Here's Jerry's version

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

 Here's yours:

"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

See?

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
 I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
 Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
 Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
 to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
 possibly get a good working dog by making them
 unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
 frosty dahl.

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
 we have trained require much more frequent
 and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
 to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome

Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,  less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand,  As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
 professora gingold.

  terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
 "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
 something you twisted out of context, because you
 are full of bizarro manure."

lying frosty dahl sez she doesn't twist:

"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

       "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
       Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
       With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
       discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like a
raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on
his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch
choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel
of your palm.

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

           BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.

       "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
       Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
       A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
       But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
       author: "CourteHOWES Canine."

"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What  does this mean?

When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
           --Mike Dufort
             author of the zero selling book
             "CourteHOWES Canines"

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...

        "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
        news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
         >
         > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         > > When you compare using sound and
         > > praise to solve a problem with using
         > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
         > > how can you criticize the use of sound?

         > There's nothing more to be said, then.
         > You've made up your mind.

         > But you've impressed me by mentioning
         > that you're a professor with 30 years of
         > experience.

         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
         >> will often make the dog either aggressive
         >> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
         >> to do.
         >
         > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
         > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
         >
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
         > doubt, please provide a quote (an
         > original quote, not from one of Jerry
         > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
         > shows a regular poster promoting or
         > using an abusive form of training.
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >  What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
         >  which you have read so many.  While you're going
         >  through them, point out those which recommend
         >  shocking, and pinching, and beating.  Thank you.
         > --
         > -Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > Rocky wrote:
         > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
         > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
         > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
         > > is choking. It's never limited.
         >
         > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
         > Thank you for your contribution.
         >-
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >

         From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
         Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
         Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

         Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

        > I try really hard not to yell.  The times that I have, Solo
        > joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

        Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
        thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
        others' dogs at agility trials or training.
        --
        --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

                         ---------------

       From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
       Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
       Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

       Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

       > One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
       > is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
       > shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

       Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
       much to heart -- I'll try something different.  Right now, he's

       just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
       --
       --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

      From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
      Subject: Re: Leg Humper
      Date: 1999/09/14

      Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
      <37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

      > By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
      > suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
      > that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
      > the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
      > crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
      > you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
      > dealing with behavior problems.

      Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
      up until this last paragraph.

      Why did you blow it?

      --Matt

      From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
      Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
      Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

      Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

      > the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
      > run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT.   so what does
      > that say?

      I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants.  And
      sometimes my parents pretended not to notice.  In retrospect,
      that's pretty cool.
      --
      --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
         news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

         > Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

         > Ack.  You just gave him some moore ammunition.
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         "dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com> said in
         rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

         > choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
         > causing more harm than good.

         Back at you with flat buckle collars.  These are an
         incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
         of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
         with both hands.

         It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
         well-being and not an agenda.
         --
         --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

                   BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

       "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will
       Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe.
       This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times
       It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
       author:  "Courteous Canine."

          "Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
          helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
          Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
          you to progress to striking them more
          sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
          expert trainer.

          "On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
          we have trained require much more
          frequent and heavy application of pressure
          (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,

         This is continued resistance to your
         increasing authority, and the job is
         not done until it is overcome

         "You can press the dog's ear with a
         shotshell instead of your thumb even
         get a studded collar and pinch the ear
         against that Make the dog's need to stop
         the pinching so urgent that resisting your
         will fades in importance.

          CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
          Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
          using the stick and no ear pinch.

         When the dog is digging out to beat the
         stick and seems totally reliable without
         any ear pinch, you are finished

          This is continued resistance to your
          increasing authority, and the job is
          not done until it is overcome"

         If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
         under the chin, say "No! Hold!"

          (stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
          because the ear is getting tender, or the
          dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
          frosty dahl.

You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?

       "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
       Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
       With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
       discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to
HURT THEIR DOGS?

"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."

The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.

We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL.

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

"When you get bagged for lying you're MARKED
FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{); ~ ) >

BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

        "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
        news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
         >
         > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         > > When you compare using sound and
         > > praise to solve a problem with using
         > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
         > > how can you criticize the use of sound?

         > There's nothing more to be said, then.
         > You've made up your mind.

         > But you've impressed me by mentioning
         > that you're a professor with 30 years of
         > experience.

         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
         >> will often make the dog either aggressive
         >> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
         >> to do.
         >
         > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
         > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
         >
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
         > doubt, please provide a quote (an
         > original quote, not from one of Jerry
         > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
         > shows a regular poster promoting or
         > using an abusive form of training.
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >  What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
         >  which you have read so many.  While you're going
         >  through them, point out those which recommend
         >  shocking, and pinching, and beating.  Thank you.
         > --
         > -Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > Rocky wrote:
         > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
         > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
         > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
         > > is choking. It's never limited.
         >
         > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
         > Thank you for your contribution.
         >-
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >

         From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
         Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
         Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

         Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

        > I try really hard not to yell.  The times that I have, Solo
        > joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

        Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
        thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
        others' dogs at agility trials or training.
        --
        --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

                         ---------------

       From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
       Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
       Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

       Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

       > One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
       > is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
       > shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

       Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
       much to heart -- I'll try something different.  Right now, he's

       just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
       --
       --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

      From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
      Subject: Re: Leg Humper
      Date: 1999/09/14

      Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
      <37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

      > By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
      > suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
      > that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
      > the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
      > crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
      > you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
      > dealing with behavior problems.

      Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
      up until this last paragraph.

      Why did you blow it?

      --Matt

      From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
      Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
      Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

      Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

      > the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
      > run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT.   so what does
      > that say?

      I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants.  And
      sometimes my parents pretended not to notice.  In retrospect,
      that's pretty cool.
      --
      --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
         news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

         > Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

         > Ack.  You just gave him some moore ammunition.
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

       "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
       Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
       A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
       But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
       author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

From: Mark Shaw (m...@bangnetcom.com)
Subject: Re: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST

In article <gWLs8.203228$af7.101030@rwcrn­­­sc53>,

"Coleman Brumley" <clbrum...@home.com> wrote:

If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system,
I have one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.

I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence?  I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try.  Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.

That was a Dane, though.  With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw

culprit's dogs MURDERED her kat for
standin behind their SHOCK FENCE
just like HOWE liea's dog attacked
her only friend and tried to attack two
little kids for standin in her SHOCK ZONE:

From: culprit (culp...@flashmail.com)
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing
bark alert, while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST

"micha el" <spam_yurs...@spamyourmamma.co­­­m>
wrote in message news:yIydnZpPsIzg6l_d4p2dnA@comcast.com...

       ------------------------------­­­--

Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.

Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.

Just hides under a desk in the house.

        "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
        news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
         >
         > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         > > When you compare using sound and
         > > praise to solve a problem with using
         > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
         > > how can you criticize the use of sound?

         > There's nothing more to be said, then.
         > You've made up your mind.

         > But you've impressed me by mentioning
         > that you're a professor with 30 years of
         > experience.

         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
         >> will often make the dog either aggressive
         >> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
         >> to do.
         >
         > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
         > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
         >
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
         > doubt, please provide a quote (an
         > original quote, not from one of Jerry
         > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
         > shows a regular poster promoting or
         > using an abusive form of training.
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >  What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
         >  which you have read so many.  While you're going
         >  through them, point out those which recommend
         >  shocking, and pinching, and beating.  Thank you.
         > --
         > -Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > Rocky wrote:
         > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
         > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
         > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
         > > is choking. It's never limited.
         >
         > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
         > Thank you for your contribution.
         >-
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >

         From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
         Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
         Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

         Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

        > I try really hard not to yell.  The times that I have, Solo
        > joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

        Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
        thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
        others' dogs at agility trials or training.
        --
        --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

                         ---------------

       From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
       Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
       Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

       Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

       > One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
       > is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
       > shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

       Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
       much to heart -- I'll try something different.  Right now, he's

       just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
       --
       --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

      From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
      Subject: Re: Leg Humper
      Date: 1999/09/14

      Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
      <37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

      > By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
      > suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
      > that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
      > the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
      > crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
      > you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
      > dealing with behavior problems.

      Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
      up until this last paragraph.

      Why did you blow it?

      --Matt

      From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
      Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
      Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

      Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

      > the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
      > run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT.   so what does
      > that say?

      I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants.  And
      sometimes my parents pretended not to notice.  In retrospect,
      that's pretty cool.
      --
      --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
         news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

         > Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

         > Ack.  You just gave him some moore ammunition.
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll
state my opinion once and won't defend it further:
any method can be cruel for some dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at
the beginning, but we've come a long way since then.

She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.

Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?"

"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshu...@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
and the vet agrees.
--Lia

"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR­­­ufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR­­­ufusSmall.WMV"

THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.

        "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
        news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
         >
         > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         > > When you compare using sound and
         > > praise to solve a problem with using
         > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
         > > how can you criticize the use of sound?

         > There's nothing more to be said, then.
         > You've made up your mind.

         > But you've impressed me by mentioning
         > that you're a professor with 30 years of
         > experience.

         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
         >> will often make the dog either aggressive
         >> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
         >> to do.
         >
         > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
         > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
         >
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
         > doubt, please provide a quote (an
         > original quote, not from one of Jerry
         > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
         > shows a regular poster promoting or
         > using an abusive form of training.
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >  What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
         >  which you have read so many.  While you're going
         >  through them, point out those which recommend
         >  shocking, and pinching, and beating.  Thank you.
         > --
         > -Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > Rocky wrote:
         > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
         > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
         > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
         > > is choking. It's never limited.
         >
         > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
         > Thank you for your contribution.
         >-
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >

         From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
         Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
         Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

         Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

        > I try really hard not to yell.  The times that I have, Solo
        > joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

        Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
        thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
        others' dogs at agility trials or training.
        --
        --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

                         ---------------

       From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
       Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
       Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

       Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

       > One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
       > is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
       > shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

       Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
       much to heart -- I'll try something different.  Right now, he's

       just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
       --
       --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

      From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
      Subject: Re: Leg Humper
      Date: 1999/09/14

      Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
      <37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

      > By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
      > suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
      > that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
      > the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
      > crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
      > you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
      > dealing with behavior problems.

      Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
      up until this last paragraph.

      Why did you blow it?

      --Matt

      From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
      Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
      Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

      Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

      > the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
      > run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT.   so what does
      > that say?

      I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants.  And
      sometimes my parents pretended not to notice.  In retrospect,
      that's pretty cool.
      --
      --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
         news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

         > Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

         > Ack.  You just gave him some moore ammunition.
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

       "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
       Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
       A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
       But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
       author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

http://tinyurl.com/389al

In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.

If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.

Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

On 6 Feb 2006 01:19:16 -0800,
"dallygirl" <kwickwick@hotmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:

What exactly does that mean?

"credentials" only mean something if the issuing organization is
recognized as THE authority.  The American Medical Association, The
American Bar Association - things like that.  There is no "whatever"
dog association that licenses dog trainers.

What exactly were you doing with the lead that caused a negative
behavior?  Do you not use a lead when training?  Not on city streets?

I'm pretty sure you are the only one who was distressed and you
transmitted that to your dog.

What on earth does that have to do with properly using a variety of
training tools?  So far, you've equated using choke collars with
people who enjoy drop-kicking dogs.

When 150# Cujo is trying to eat the dog net door,
what "nicer way" do you employ?

My neck is very different from a dog's neck.  I have no problem with a
choke or prong on my neck - I would respond accordingly.  As far as
electric, I have had a ton of PT at times, and the electricity has
been a godsend.

Nope - don't believe in kicking.  But I do use a variety of collars
when training dogs.  I'm not a big fan of CHAIN chokes, because I
don't find them easy to fit properly.  I prefer nylon slip collars in
general, will never connect a leash to a buckle ID collar, and find
prong collars to be very, very useful training tools.

Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week.
I'm sure you'll NOT hear screams from across the pond.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

        "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
        news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...
         >
         > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         > > When you compare using sound and
         > > praise to solve a problem with using
         > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
         > > how can you criticize the use of sound?

         > There's nothing more to be said, then.
         > You've made up your mind.

         > But you've impressed me by mentioning
         > that you're a professor with 30 years of
         > experience.

         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
         >> will often make the dog either aggressive
         >> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
         >> to do.
         >
         > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
         > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
         >
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
         > doubt, please provide a quote (an
         > original quote, not from one of Jerry
         > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
         > shows a regular poster promoting or
         > using an abusive form of training.
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >
         >  What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
         >  which you have read so many.  While you're going
         >  through them, point out those which recommend
         >  shocking, and pinching, and beating.  Thank you.
         > --
         > -Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > Rocky wrote:
         > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
         > rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
         > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
         > > is choking. It's never limited.
         >
         > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
         > Thank you for your contribution.
         >-
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
         >

         From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
         Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
         Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

         Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

        > I try really hard not to yell.  The times that I have, Solo
        > joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.

        Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
        thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
        others' dogs at agility trials or training.
        --
        --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

                         ---------------

       From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
       Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
       Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

       Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

       > One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
       > is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
       > shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.

       Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
       much to heart -- I'll try something different.  Right now, he's

       just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
       --
       --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

      From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
      Subject: Re: Leg Humper
      Date: 1999/09/14

      Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
      <37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

      > By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
      > suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
      > that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
      > the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
      > crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
      > you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
      > dealing with behavior problems.

      Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
      up until this last paragraph.

      Why did you blow it?

      --Matt

      From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
      Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
      Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????

      Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

      > the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
      > run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT.   so what does
      > that say?

      I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants.  And
      sometimes my parents pretended not to notice.  In retrospect,
      that's pretty cool.
      --
      --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         "Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
         news:Xns92FE730764918australianshepherdca@130.133.1.4...

         > Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
         >
         > > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.

         > Ack.  You just gave him some moore ammunition.
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

       "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
       Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
       A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
       But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
       author: "Courteous Canine."

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.

REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.

Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar.

Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.

Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.

         >> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
         >> will often make the dog either aggressive
         >> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
         >> to do.
         >
         > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
         > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
         >
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
         > doubt, please provide a quote (an
         > original quote, not from one of Jerry
         > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
         > shows a regular poster promoting or
         > using an abusive form of training.
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake.  I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:

Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong  - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.  Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog.   I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use.   Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars.  At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8)  Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog.   I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation.   Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag.   (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

         >> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
         >> will often make the dog either aggressive
         >> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
         >> to do.
         >
         > And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
         > No matter what Jerry Howe states.
         >
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
         > doubt, please provide a quote (an
         > original quote, not from one of Jerry
         > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
         > shows a regular poster promoting or
         > using an abusive form of training.
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

         > So, can you cite some examples of
         > people recommending "shock collars,
         > hanging, and punishment"?
         > --
         > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...

Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.

In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.

Which one is it?

                     WORDS OF WISDOM
                From Our Own Lynn Kosmakos
           1200mg Of Lithium And 50 mg Of Zoloft
                       EVERY DAY
                   For Twenty Years

        I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

 "I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.

 I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
 learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
 information I have learned.  But if I were ever
 to post such sh*t,  I would hope that every other
 reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

 "Community is an evolutionary thing that we
 earn the right to participate in by observing
 the easily understood rules and contributing
 to in constructive ways."

 Lynn K.

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 "It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
 - she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
 a comment she made about scarey side effects of
 Lithium.  Hardly.  After 17 years on it, I think
 I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
 any side effect is far less frightening than the
 very real dangers of life without it."

 Lynn K.
------------------------------­­­-----------

LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems.  LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined

------------------------------­­­-----------

 "