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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / June 2006



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Is xanax safe for dogs?

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coloradoskibum - 11 Jun 2006 17:27 GMT
The reason I ask is because 4th of July is coming up, and one of my dogs is
completely inconsolable for the entire month-long event...the slightest
little "pop" will set him off; he doesn't sleep but paces and pants all
night long, which obviously keeps my husband and me awake also.  Last year
the vet recommended benadryl, but that had ZERO effect on him, and when I
gave up I was giving him 4 at a time!  He weighs about 65 lbs.  Any
thoughts?
Signature

coloradoskibum

Spot - 11 Jun 2006 19:25 GMT
Take the dog back to the vets and quit self dosing before you kill it.  Four
Benedryl is WAY too much for a 65 lb dog.  There are other medications that
are suitable for a dog.

Celeste

> The reason I ask is because 4th of July is coming up, and one of my dogs
> is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> gave up I was giving him 4 at a time!  He weighs about 65 lbs.  Any
> thoughts?
coloradoskibum - 11 Jun 2006 21:07 GMT
4 was what the vet RECOMMENDED, so you can back off with the self-righteous
remarks.

Now, anybody have an answer to my question?
-
coloradoskibum

> Take the dog back to the vets and quit self dosing before you kill it.
> Four Benedryl is WAY too much for a 65 lb dog.  There are other
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> gave up I was giving him 4 at a time!  He weighs about 65 lbs.  Any
>> thoughts?
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory@HotMail.Com - 11 Jun 2006 23:49 GMT
HOWEDY coloradosikbum,

> 4 was what the vet RECOMMENDED,

INDEEDY. Dogs REQUIRE abHOWET 3-4 times the human dosage of Benadryl.

> so you can back off with the self-righteous remarks.

The Incredibly Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard sees you've
met
spot aka celest, a miserable lyin dog murderin active acute chronic
long term
incurable mental case, just WON of the GREAT MANY CONSPIRATORS we
got here abHOWETS who hurt intimidate and murder dogs and LIE abHOWET
it like the rest of the pathetic chumps you'll be findin here abHOWETS
<{) : ~ (  >

> Now, anybody have an answer to my question?\

INDEEDY.

HOWEver, you AIN'T gonna be gettin no doGdameneD advice from
the CONSPIRACY of miserable lyin dog abusing punk thug coward
active acute chronic long term incurable metnal cases we got here
abHOWETS who HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER innocent defenseless
dumb critters an LIE abHOWET IT.

Fear of thunder, fireworks, car sickness, separation are CAUSED
by traditional handling and training aka OVER CON-TROLL.

ESPECIALLY when HIGHLY TRAINED dogs are taught their LEADER
is IN CON-TROLL, and their G-D ALMIGHTY LEADER CANNOT CON-
TROLL the ENVIORNMENT or their ABSENCES, or their dog during
those absences, the dog LOSES ALL CONFIDENCE and goes into
sometimes DEATH PRODUCING STRESS <{) : ~ (  >

HOWEver, NOT TO WORRY, we can CURE ALL PHOBIAS simply
by PRAISING and when necessary briefly alternately non physically
distracting and INSTANTLY prasing for 5-15 seconds  and of curse
usin The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard's
NON PHYSCIAL C-HOWENTER CONditioning aka The Insanely
Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy
Separation AnXXXIHOWESNESS / Bed Time Calming / Fear Of
Thunder / Car Sickness / Submissive Urination / Obsessive
Compulsive Masturbation / Chronic Urinary Tract / Bladder /
Irritable BHOWEL / Obsessive Compulsive Marking / Self
Mutilation / Spraying / Defecating Syndrome Technique <{) ; ~  )  >

LIKE THIS:

"Dan Moore" <mooret...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message

news:fS2Lc.114567$OB3.42357@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.

Tracy,
What worked for me, in just one storm,
was to praise the dog after each clap
of thunder, telling him he's a Good Dog!

This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.

The next time it thundered, he did not even react at
all--you could not tell it was the same dog as before.

There was more thunder just the other day, and same
thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no cowering, whimpering,
trying to hide at all, it was that simple.

I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem
to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non-
abusive way of handling dogs WORKS.

Wonderfully.

Praise.

It's that simple.

Juanita

               ------------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

Chris Williams writes:

"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma."

AND LIKE THIS:

From:        lucyaa...@claque.net
Date:        Mon, May 23 2005 1:08 am
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net

dinglejingl...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Anyone else have an opinion?

I'm not a trainer and my experience is limited to my two dogs, so take
it for what it's worth. As someone who had to deal with a puppy who had
his own ideas about what was and what wasn't "proper behavior", I was
very happy to find The Amazing Puppy Wizard's dog training method. It
is a method that is gentle to the dog, very easy to apply and it has
been working wonderfully with both my dogs, giving practically instant
results. It was as if I had been given the "key" to understanding and
controlling my puppy's behavior: suddenly, he was listening to me,
doing what I was asking him to do, instead of constantly opposing me.
It also worked with some issues my older dog had, too - her fear of
thunder, her barking and her aggression towards another female dog.

Don't let either the first impression about the "weirdness" of The
Amazing Puppy Wizard, or the regulars' negative opinion of him (there's
a long history behind it) deter you from at least reading the manual
and deciding for yourself if you want to try it or not.

I wish all the best to you and your dog.

Lucy

AND LIKE THIS:

From:        lucyaa...@claque.net - view profile
Date:        Wed, Feb 8 2006 3:48 pm
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net

> Handsome Jack Morrison
> <handsomejackmorri...@thedetonatorearthlink.net> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> >> So training a dog who has all her life been afraid of
> >> thunder to fear it no more is entirely worthless, in your
> >> eyes?

> > That would be a good thing!  I have a hunch that you're
> > deluding yourself again, though.

> > On the other hand, I wonder why she was forced to
> > endure that fear for all her life???

I didn't know that, but I'm very glad you succeeded. I wish I knew
earlier what to do, because Bonnie was very distressed by thunder.

She learned pretty quickly to associate thunder with lightning and
lightning with rain, so just a few drops were so scary for her.

Lucy

Here's The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy
Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual Student Lucy havin a TRAININ LESSON
with spot aka celest's best buddies suja, leah, tommy
sorenson aka gentleman jack morrison the anonymHOWES
dog murderin mental case aka DOGMAN et all *("You're
JUDGED BY the company you keep. When you lie with
PIGS you'll awaken STINKIN LIKE "m," The Puppy Wizard's
DADDY <{) ; ~  )   > )    :

From:        lucyaa...@claque.net
Date:        Wed, May 25 2005 3:34 pm
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
> Here are just a few things to take into consideration when being
> advised to read the 'manual' written by the 'Puppy Wizard', or follow
> his 'advice':

Since I've been the only one who advised to read The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's manual lately, I'll try to reply to this.

> - His beliefs/opinions about dogs - - he's said that he doesn't like
> dogs, and it does not appear that he has dogs and is not clear that he
> ever had dogs.

That's a matter of opinion, of course - an opinion that I do not share
and one that you cannot support with proof. The fact that he doesn't
post a link to the pictures of his dogs doesn't prove that those dogs
don't exist, much less that they never have existed.

> He believes that a dog is a dog is a dog and that
> there is no difference between the temperaments and learning styles of
> breeds that have been bred for generations to do a particular job.  He
> claims that all misbehaviors and illnesses are caused by mishandling
> or abuse.  These opinions are not supported by the literature.

I don't think that he said that ALL the illnesses are caused by
mishandling or abuse, but that mishandling/abuse did cause a great
number of apparently unrelated illnesses. There's a vast literature
supporting that - just look at the variety of stress-induced disorders.

> - His claim that he can train any dog in the world while sitting naked
> in front of his computer, without personally assessing said dog.

And yet, I can tell you from first hand experience that this claim is
justified (except the part about "sitting naked", for which we have to
take The Amazing Puppy Wizard's word) in the case of two dogs who are
living half the world away from him - MY two dogs. For instance, he
told me exactly what to do when Bonnie was barking with excitement as
someone she loved was arriving, and his advice worked... like magic!
Also, his advice about how to deal with her fear of thunder was the
ONLY thing that could calm her down.

> This is simply not credible.

Sometimes the truth does seem unbelievable, but it is still the truth.

> Additionally, he appears to spend all of his time posting to various
> newsgroups, some of which have nothing to do with dogs;

And this fact has nothing to do with his ability to train dogs via the
Internet, either.

> he digs up and responds to old posts, responds to his own
> posts himself, posts and cross-posts sometimes hundreds of posts a day
> and all through the night.  This suggests that he's not spending much
> time actually training dogs.

Perhaps he can afford it. One thing is certain: his training method is
incredibly easy to apply. In certain respects, the result is
practically instant. Like with aggression, for example. Or with
separation anxiety.

> - His reputation, or lack of same - - though he claims to be a
> well-known dog trainer, no one who lives in the area where he lives
> has ever heard of him.

Again, this has nothing to do with the fact that his method WORKS.

>  - His behavior on this newsgroup.

So he isn't "nice" (but, you know, neither the rest of you are exactly
very friendly to those who disagree with you). Anyway, does it matter
so much how he behaves here, if his method is successful with our dogs?
After all, we don't need to train HIM, we need to train our DOGS; and
Jerry understands exactly what seems to be going on in the dogs' minds
and he has both the experience and the willingness to teach others how
to use this understanding in order to modify their own dogs' behavior
as they desire. I fail to see how - for someone who comes here for help
with some very urgent and specific problem - Jerry's online behavior
would be more important than the fact that his method could really aid
their dog.

Lucy (and I never said that one should do as Jerry says, I only advised
that they should _read_the_manual_and_decide_for_themselves_, while the
rest of you seem to think that just READING the manual can somehow
cause damage)

From:        lucyaa...@claque.net
Date:        Tues, Feb 7 2006 4:05 pm
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

> []
> >Hi, Diddy!

> >That's a very interesting idea. I wonder just what happens when the
> >trainer has used ALL the available tools and the dog is still testing
> >his boundaries. Like a rebellous teenager, saying, "OK, punish me!". Is
> >there a limit to how severely a trainer should punish? If the dog
> >refuses to obey no matter what you do, then - what do you do?

> I dunno.  Is there a limit to how many dogs you're responsible for
> having put down (or left to rot in their crates) because you're afraid
> to even give them boundaries?

I can tell you with absolute certainty that I haven't ever harmed a dog
by praising him/her. Can you say the same? (I know, I know - this isn't
fair; you are a dog trainer, I'm just a happy owner with two wonderful
dogs).

> Have you ever trained more than a couple of dogs in your life?

Yes. Have just taught a two months old Siberian Husky puppy to walk on
leash. It took me exactly two minutes to do it. Guess what? I applied
Jerry's method (thanks, Jerry!).

> Have you ever put the quality of that training to the test,
> in any kind of competition?

Competition? No. But I put it to the test with the puppy I mentioned
above: two months old, owned by two young people who agreed to never
punish her, no matter what she did. The result? She is perfectly
housebroken, can be left alone (not crated) at home for 7-8 hours and
she doesn't have "accidents", doesn't ruin the bedroom (hi, Melinda!),
doesn't swallow socks (hi, Janet!), doesn't do lots of undesirable
things the majority of the puppies of the regulars here do. Satisfied?

> Have you ever done anything with your dogs besides pet them?

What's wrong with petting them?

As a matter of fact, yes, I did: cured my 13 years old dog's fear of
thunder (thanks again, Jerry!). I only wish I had found Jerry's method
earlier - would have saved my dog so many years of being scared to
death when it just started to rain!

> Huh?

Now THAT's an intelligent comment, Jack.

Lucy

From:        lucyaa...@claque.net
Date:        Wed, Apr 20 2005 1:30 pm
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net

shelly wrote:
> on 2005-04-20 at 03:45 <lucyaa...@claque.net> wrote:

> >Because he simply loves to chase, catch and "kill" a toy. He
> >would do ANYTHING to get you to throw it for him, so that he
> >can chase, catch and "kill" it - again and again and again.

> that may indicate a potential for prey drive, but it's no
> guarantee.  there are plenty of dogs who will chase and corner
> critters, but will not follow through.

I'm afraid that, given the fact that we're living in a city, he doesn't
have many oportunities to do much hunting of real, living creatures.
And he's very well behaved with my other critters. So perhaps we'll
never know if he can be a killer. But the fact is that physically he is
perfectly capable of killing a cat or a dog about his own size or
smaller, if he decides he wants to do so.

> >You say, "OK, let's go, we don't have time", and they don't
> >even give a sign they heard you - still stuck to the same
> >spot on the tree.

> of course.  if you haven't taught them a "chop, chop" cue,
> then you can hardly expect them to respond to one, eh?

> >But if you just say, "GOOD BOY, Clyde, what a GOOD boy he is!
> >GOOD GIRL, Bonnie, you're the best!", they both suddenly
> >leave the tree and happily resume walking with you.

> dogs with non-english speaking owners are at *such* a
> disadvantage!

LOL - you mean, owners like me? I am not speaking English with my dogs,
but this doesn't seem to bother them at all.

> but, assuming that the words "good dog" had some sort of
> intrinsic meaning (they don't), it still doesn't make any
> meaningful difference.  when my dogs (who *do* have high prey
> drive) are on the trail of a critter, they don't know i exist.
> it wouldn't matter if i told them "good dog" or "knock it the
> hell off" as it's all the same to them:  bupkis.

Well, it seems that MY dogs do have a pretty clear understanding of
what I say and what I mean. Again, unlike you and the folks here, they
seem to think exactly as Jerry says they do. Shelly, I never punish
them. Never (for Tara: I mean "punish" as we ordinary mortals
understand the term, please be so kind and bear with me).

My dogs don't fear me, because they know there is no reason to fear. If
they obey, it's because they WANT to obey, and perhaps praising them
gives them the incentive to do so.

> >I only know that it works, it works indeed like
> >magic. It works whether it's about getting them to stop
> >barking, or stop fearing the thunder,

> have you ever had a dog who had anxiety problems?

Yes. Bonnie was terrorized by thunder. She was so scared, that the
moment it started to rain she used to go hiding under the bed and
nothing would make her come out of there - until long after the rain
stopped.

> if you
> have, you'll know that praising them while they're anxious is
> the absolute worst thing you can do.  doing so with harriet
> set her progress back beyond square one.  i've made plenty of
> mistakes with my dogs, but that one was a whopper.

Praising Bonnie allowed me to persuade her to continue our walk while
it started to rain, something that I couldn't even dream to do, before.
And, during the last thunder storm we had this winter, she stayed with
me almost until the end, while I was praising her enthusiastically. She
was really fighting the impulse to go hide as usual, and gave in to it
only when a particularly loud thunder startled us both.

> >or stop picking things they shouldn't eat ("Leave it, Clyde,
> >GOOD BOY!" does it,

> if you've taught your dogs the meaning of "leave it" then it
> isn't surprising that they would, in fact, "leave it" when you
> tell them to.  not very revolutionary, that.

Oh well - can't take the credit for this one; my dogs are smart. I
didn't specifically TEACH them the meaning of "leave it", they must
have guessed it - and it works only accompanied by the "GOOD BOY/GIRL!"

> >just as Jerry had told me in this very forum that they'd
> >eventually do, both Clyde and Bonnie almost never pick up
> >anything).

> "almost never" isn't good enough.

Well, it's almost good enough for me. <g>

> i'll be more impressed
> when, after killing a Mr. Cottontail, you can get your dogs to
> drop his half-eaten carcass.

What about dropping a nice chicken bone they had just picked? My dogs
don't have many chances to kill anything around here - did I mention
that we live in a city?

> >The can with pennies is NOT intended to be used as any form
> >of punishment - on the contrary, it doesn't work if it IS
> >used thus. The idea is to just DISTRACT the dog

> what do you think a distraction is?

Sorry. I should have said "aversive", not "punishment".

I think that you can distract a dog in a manner in which the
distraction (=sound) is not perceived by the dog as an aversive,
but just as a "What's that?" kind of thing. It interrupts the dog's
behavior without causing him any negative feelings.

> not that it matters, in my dogs' particular cases.  one doesn't
> respond to the noise and the other over reacts to it. it's a useless
> tool for these two dogs, no matter what sorts of all-encompassing
> claims Mr. Howe makes.

Have you ever tried it while praising? Not that it matters, as you say
- except for the fact that you can't know if it works or not, unless
you apply it as indicated by the author.

> > that you don't even have to produce the sound yourself: an
> > environmental sound, such as that suddenly made by the motor
> > of a passing car - can be used to this purpose.

> no kidding.  i knocked a stack of stainless steel mixing bowls
> off the top of the fridge once.  *once*.  i've since moved
> them to a lower cupboard where i'm less apt to topple them.
> poor harriet.

Again, praising while producing the sound can make the whole
difference. Otherwise, the sound is merely frightening and Harriet
is perfectly right to stay away from those bowls.

> > I used it once while working with Bonnie on the "Come!"
> > command. The sound came from behind her, right as I had
> > uttered the "Good girl, Bonnie, COME!" and she came straight
> > to me, despite the fact that, just a moment earlier, she had
> > been still hesitant.

> to this day, harriet won't go near those damned bowls.  if i
> were really interested in keeping her off the kitchen counter,
> all i have to do is leave one of those bowls sitting on it.
> "fool me once..." she says.

Smart girl, your Harriet! And beautiful, too.

Lucy

From:        Lucy A. Afar
Date:        Sat, Oct 9 2004 8:47 am
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net (Lucy A. Afar)

Suja <spana...@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in message
<news:0jy9d.84$6P5.4@okepread02>...
> LeeCharlesKelley wrote:

> > So in this example how and why did praise have the opposite effect and
> > *change* the behavior rather than reinforce it?

> I tried a little experiment this morning, after reading your posts.
> Khan generally walks ahead of me, and I have no problem with that, as
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> has been taught that's not acceptable while I'm at the other end of the
> leash.

> Also tried something similar with Pan.  She likes to eat sticks and
> doesn't understand why I make her 'Leave It' when she chows down on
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> acknowledgement, as if she is glad I finally came to my senses and
> realized that sticks are a part of the four food groups.

> FWIW, Khan had no motivators (other than stuff he could hunt down and
> kill himself) when we first got him, and is now reasonably well
> motivated by food, and somewhat by praise and pets (he had an aversion
> to being touched before).  Pan is extremely food motivated, and even
> more motivated by praise and pets.

> So, why didn't this work?  What should I have done differently or should
> do differently next time?  I am not going to do anything more with
> Khan's leash walking, because I really don't want him to re-learn that
> bad habit.  But, I can work on Pan's stick eating using your methods only.

> Suja

Hi, Suja!

Have you ever tried sound distraction and praise, as Jerry recommends?

I've been lurking in this group for some time and have been learning a
few things, in the process. Like you, I, too, enjoy experimenting -
especially when it's something that can't be harmful to my dogs. Thus,
I tried Lee's idea of teaching a dog to sit, and the result was quite
interesting. It didn't work with Bonnie, because she doesn't care to
chase toys anymore (is she too old, for that, at almost 12? Or is it
because she's stressed by too many changes in our furry family, during
this last year?). Clyde, on the other hand, simply LOVED it. He got
the "sit!" from the very first try, his eyes glued to the toy, waiting
patiently until I throw it and he can chase and "kill" it. No,
"patiently", is not the right word: it's more like a cat's patience
when watching a bird, like a tightly wound spring.

I suppose that my puppies must have read Jerry's manual, because the
sound distraction and praise always work, with both of them. Always.
Clyde liked to chew holes into blankets (which he also used to hump),
and sound distraction followed instantly by lots of praise put an end
to both blanket chewing and humping. Bonnie barks at anything that
walks either outside our apartment's door, or in front of the house.
"Good girl, Bonnie, let's see what's going on", followed by me
checking the door or the window and telling her that "it's all right,
just good people or good dogs passing by" makes the barking stop EVERY
time. That is, every time except when guests are coming to us. I
haven't figured out yet how to make her accept the fact that it takes
some time since the moment she hears the car door closing and until
people arrive at our apartment's front door, on the 3rd floor of the
building.

A word about aggression: when we moved into this apartment, one of the
neighbors had a little female dog that took an instant dislike of
Bonnie, and Bonnie of her. They barked at each other like mad, baring
their teeth in a most menacing way. It was quite unpleasant, because
they bumped into each other quite often, when I was taking Bonnie out
for her walks. Until one day when I tried praising both dogs, petting
the other dog and Bonnie, telling each of them what a good girl she
was, and what a good girl the other dog was, too. This peace making
effort worked, and the two girls changed their behavior completely,
almost instantly - proving that peace in the Middle East is possible,
though not among humans.

Now, if I think of it, it's this kind of experience that perhaps made
me find Jerry's gentle method of training not only the most palatable,
but also one that is entirely logical and rational. And I think that
it's extremely generous of him to make his manual available to all of
us, for free, and also to spend his time teaching us how to train our
dogs, for the benefit of both our dogs and of ourselves, the humans
who love them. For all these, I'm deeply grateful to Jerry, and I want
to use this opportunity to thank him, from the bottom of my heart!

Lucy

From:        Lucy A. Afar
Date:        Mon, Oct 11 2004 3:05 pm
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net (Lucy A. Afar)

Suja <spana...@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in message
<news:QL1ad.2622$6P5.1062@okepread02>...
> Lucy A. Afar wrote:

> > Have you ever tried sound distraction and praise, as Jerry recommends?

> Better qualified people (and ones who are not certifiable) have
> advocated these methods long before Jerry ever thought of it.

If this is so, then why are these methods being rejected and
ridiculed, in this group? Judging by the surprise caused here by Lee's
suggestion of praising an undesired behavior in order to stop it, I'd
have thought that these ideas were far from the accepted norm in dog
training. I don't know if they do work with all the dogs; what I do
know is that they definitely work with MY dogs, and I'm a bit
surprised that far more experienced people than myself are ready to
dismiss and ridicule (without having even given it a try) a method
that is both nonviolent and has good results, and which - as you put
it - has been advocated by "better qualified people", before Jerry
and
Lee.

> Unfortunately, I cannot use sound as a distraction, because Pan is
> extremely sensitive to it.

My dogs (especially Clyde) are pretty sensitive, too, but the sound I
use is not something very loud or startling. I rarely need to use a
louder sound than a clap of my hands - just enough to distract them
for a second, so that they look at me, and at that moment I start to
praise, and I praise for as long as their eyes are on me. Then, if
they start doing again whatever they were doing, I distract them
again, trying to make the sound come from a different direction, just
as Jerry says in his manual. They look at me again, and I praise them,
again, for as long as they are looking. I rarely need to distract them
more than twice, before they give up the undesired behavior and walk
away, go to sleep or do something else which is acceptable to me.

> Khan was the same way, but I guess we did
> too good a job with desensitizing him, 'cause he's pretty much bomb
> proof these days.  IOW, sound distractions don't work on him either,
> because he isn't distracted by it.

> Suja

Perhaps you could use something different as a distraction? I remember
reading that someone in this group was using a bouncing ball, or
something like that, to the same purpose.

How did you do, to make Khan "bomb proof"? I wish I could do the same
with Bonnie, who is afraid of thunder, firecrackers and gunshots.
Interesting that other loud sounds have no effect on her, and she's
totally indifferent to storms on TV, no matter how loud the volume is.

Lucy

From:        Lucy A. Afar
Date:        Mon, Oct 11 2004 4:13 pm
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net (Lucy A. Afar)

Dear Jerry,

Thank you for your kind and thought-provoking reply to my post. I'll
reply to it, later on - I'm a bit short of time right now.

Just one thing: there's a paragraph from your post "Learning HOWE
To Learn 101", where you quote someone saying:

> Young children and dogs, actually ALL
> animals, have NO innate "desire" to be taught.

and you reply:

> We're splitting hairs here, but you might have a point. Young animals and
> young children don't have an innate desire to be taught, they have an innate
> desire to learn. It's the method of "TEACHING" that can make these different.

> Learning through fear, force, or punishment, makes one averse to being
> taught.

I think that this is so beautifully put that it's simply awesome.
It's, I think, what Lee was trying to say all along, too, the very
essence of your own trust-based training method: a way to make
learning enjoyable, to both man and dog. It's what teaching of HUMAN
children should strive to achieve, too, IMO - the most efficient and
rewarding way to teach, both for the teacher and the student.

Lucy

Here's Lucy givn a other lesson to a other lyin dog
abusing punk thug coward active acute chronic long
term incurable mental case:

From:        Lucy A. Afar
Date:        Fri, Oct 15 2004 6:23 am
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net (Lucy A. Afar)

dfrntdr...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
<news:20041011160127.16411.00004052@mb-m14.aol.com>...
> > lucyaa...@claque.net wrote:

> >> Better qualified people (and ones who are not certifiable) have
> >> advocated these methods long before Jerry ever thought of it.

> >If this is so, then why are these methods being rejected and
> >ridiculed, in this group?

> Because Jerry touts them as "one size fits all" methods.  They're not.

Have you tried them, Leah? Have you tried to follow exactly Jerry's
instructions, and failed to get the desired results?

>  They're not even "first try" methods.

Why not? The basic idea is to get the dog to trust you, to always look
at you for leadership and guidance; what's wrong with that?

> For example, some dogs are traumatized by sound distractions.  I certainly
> wouldn't throw a penny can at a dog unless I was pretty darned sure that it
> wouldn't cause him to pee himself.

He never says that the sound should be startling, much less
traumatizing. The way I understand it, all you have to do is praise as
you use the sound, and the dog won't perceive it as threatening. After
all, there are lots of louder sounds in the environment (and Jerry
does recommend making use of them, if they happen at the right time,
from the right direction). The idea is just to DISTRACT the dog, so
that he looks at you and you PRAISE him. Read the manual, everything
is there.

> >Judging by the surprise caused here by Lee's
> >suggestion of praising an undesired behavior in order to stop it, I'd
> >have thought that these ideas were far from the accepted norm in dog
> >training.

> Oh, well, that part is nonsensical.

To us, perhaps - but, apparently, not to the dogs. My dogs react
exactly as Lee and Jerry say they should react. It makes perfect sense
to THEM.

> In certain circumstances, when it's used
> as classical conditioning, it can work.  But that involves far more than just
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it in his mouth.  If it's yummy enough, he'll wag his tail at your praise while
> he munches on it, and be reinforced that it's okay for him to do it.

I say, "Drop it, Clyde, good boy! What a GOOD BOY you are!" And he
drops it. True, not always - because I'm not yet doing it as Jerry
recommends - my human nature getting in the way. :-) So sometimes I
just open his mouth and take the thing out of his mouth myself. Clyde
has no problem with that.

> Repeated enough times in a way that distracts him before engaging in the
> behavior, the dog begins to associate the *thought* of the behavior with your
> praise.  So instead of engaging in it, when he thinks about it he automatically
> comes to you.

Actually, I distract him with a sound (often a clap of my hands) and
then he looks at me and I praise him. I praise him for as long as he
looks at me. If he resumes the behavior, I distract him again, with a
sound coming from a different direction - and I praise him, until he
either goes back to whatever he was doing, or does something else. If
he goes back to the undesired behavior, I repeat the procedure, as
above - until he stops and does something acceptable, instead. It's
really simple - and it works. :-)

> But go ahead and praise a dog for chasing a squirrel, and
> see where that gets you. :}

Well, no squirrels here, so I don't have this problem. :-)
But I'm doing it as he heads to the garbage can, and this stops him. I
don't need to pull his leash, he just stops and turns back.

> And Jerry's plagiarized ideas can't really be considered "the norm."
> You'd have to search to find a trainer who uses them.

That's exactly what my impression was, that they were NOT the norm. As
about "plagiarized" - this is a serious accusation; could you give a
reference, from whom did he plagiarize them?

> >I don't know if they do work with all the dogs; what I do
> >know is that they definitely work with MY dogs

> I suppose if you're very good at reading dog body language, and your timing is
> spot on, you could get good results with this method.  But most dog owners
> aren't.  Which is another reason why it's far from a "one size fits all" or
> "best" method.

I'm not a trainer, Leah; I have two dogs, one that has never been a
problem, the other who was nothing BUT a problem, for me, who had
never had a puppy, before. Jerry's method worked, on both of them
(Bonnie's barking has become a problem mainly after Clyde arrived,
because he did stress her a lot).

> >My dogs (especially Clyde) are pretty sensitive, too, but the sound I
> >use is not something very loud or startling. I rarely need to use a
> >louder sound than a clap of my hands

> IME, dogs who will be distracted by the sound of a hand clap are
> few and far between.  At least, not after the first two times.

Well, I KNOW that my dogs are special, in every way. :-)

> Canine Action Dog Trainer
> http://www.canineaction.com
> My Kids, My Students, My Life:
> http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html

Lucy

From:        Lucy A. Afar
Date:        Fri, Oct 15 2004 5:42 am
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net (Lucy A. Afar)

s...@panix.com (Melinda Shore) wrote in message
<news:ckenuk$dn7$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> In article <ed128780.0410111105.5652c...@posting.google.com>,
> Lucy A. Afar <lucyaa...@claque.net> wrote:
> >If this is so, then why are these methods being rejected and
> >ridiculed, in this group?

> It's not the methods being rejected and ridiculed.  Well,
> not completely.  Distract-and-praise is pretty much standard
> dog training fare.  Praising the dog for unwanted behavior
> is not, and when Lee is asked for further information about
> it he says he won't tell unless he's paid.  Hence the
> rejection and ridicule.

Oh, but there's plenty about praising unwanted behavior in order to
extinguish it in Jerry Howe's manual, as well as in most of his posts.
He gives precise indications of how to do it, step by step. I can well
understand that what he says about the regular posters here is not
pleasant to hear, but can't one see the merits of the method only
because one detested its author?

Also, in what Lee is concerned, he gave a few very interesting
examples that went almost without comment - the few posters who cared
to respond did so only to ridicule what - in their own words - they
had failed to understand. And that was well before Lee mentioned the
"getting paid" thing, so it wasn't in response to it. Like the
reaction to Lee's telling about how he had dealt with a very
aggressive Rottie. Did you see that post? What do you think about such
an approach to dealing with aggression?

> He's said some other patently ridiculous things, as well,
> for example that the only true drive is prey drive.  That's
> not a method problem, though - more of a methodological one.

Perhaps. But for me, who am not a trainer, the practical aspects of
dealing with a dog, the way to figure out what's in the critter's
mind, are more interesting than the purely theoretical aspects. In the
end, what we want is to understand the animal, don't we? Perhaps there
are more than one possible theoretical explanation, but that which
matters is the one that allows to develop a method that always works,
doesn't it?

Lucy
From:        lucyaa...@claque.net - view profile
Date:        Sat, Feb 25 2006 1:53 pm
Email:         lucyaa...@claque.net
Groups:         rec.pets.dogs.behavior

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Jeff Dege wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 02:19:59 -0800, lucyaafar wrote:

> > Jeff Dege wrote:
> >> On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 01:07:20 -0800, lucyaafar wrote:

> >> > Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

> >> >> >There is a lot of pain in the life of every
> >> >> >one of us, dog or human, and we all have to cope with it as best we
> >> >> >can.

> >> >> And that's just one of the things I teach dogs to do, i.e., to cope
> >> >> with all the goings-on of life.

> >> > Why? Do you turn your dogs loose to live in the wild? Aren't they
> >> > supposed to be taken care of by loving humans, who protect them from
> >> > all harm?

> >> If your dog is a Lhasa, perhaps.

> >> My JRT would be a holy terror, if I tried to make him live that sort of
> >> life.

> > What sort of life?

> One in which he isn't given the freedom to explore the world, and all the
> fascinating stuff in it.

But you DO restrict his freedom to explore the world when you use the
e-collar on him, don't you? And, as you yourself say in your other
post, this is extremely stressful for him.

> > One in which he doesn't have to be subjected to
> > pain? Is your JRT a masochist?

> A JRT on the hunt doesn't give a damn about pain.

But training is different, isn't it? If it weren't, if he hadn't given
a damn about what he feels when you stimulate him with the e-collar,
the e-collar would be completely useless, wouldn't it?

> >> >> So that they can go anywhere, anytime, anyplace.  And enjoy all the
> >> >> things that dogs enjoy doing.

> >> > That's very nice of you. Now, if you just COULD force your imagination
> >> > just a little bit and grasp the notion that this can be done by a
> >> > gentler, non-physical method that doesn't cause the dog to scream when
> >> > learning something, perhaps both you and your dogs could profit from
> >> > that, don't you think?

> >> No, it can't be.  Not with a lot of dogs.

> > Jeff, have you ever TRIED Jerry's distract-and-praise method? Just give
> > it a try, see if it works or not?

> Jerry's method is based on the fundamentally flawed premise that there is
> always something you can provide that is more rewarding to the dog than
> what the dog is doing himself.

> It's often true, but it is by no means always true.

It's been always true with my dogs. It's been true when applied to
other dogs I know of. I can't say if it works always or not, but have
yet to see an instance when it HASN'T worked.

> What do you do when your dog won't be distracted?  The Jack Russells that
> people told stories about - and that the old breeders chose to be the
> foundation stock for future generations - spent _days_ down an earth
> closed with a fox.  The JRTs that were distractable were culled from the
> bloodline.

It's enough if the distraction is only temporary - just what it takes
for him to stop and look at you, while you praise him enthusiastically.
I can't believe that a JRT wouldn't turn his head in the direction of a
sudden sound, even for a fraction of a second. THAT would be enough of
a distraction for the method to work. Why not try and see for yourself?

> >> Ian Dunbar did some research, some years back.  And found that using only
> >> positive methods, trainers reached only 83-85% reliability on his baseline
> >> obedience test.  Trainers who used primarily positive methods with
> >> occasional use of well-timed corrections reached 05-97% reliability.

> >> Some dogs simply can't be trained with purely positive methods.  Actually,
> >> some dogs can't be trained, period, but there are more dogs who can be
> >> trained using mixed methods than can be trained using purely positive
> >> methods.  And there are very few dogs who can reach high levels of
> >> reliability using only positive methods.

> > Look, I find it hard to believe that - in all those studies - there was
> > a group of dogs trained by Jerry's method and that group failed to give
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > and were trained easily by applying his method; can you give an example
> > where the opposite is true?

> I don't know anyone, anywhere, whose done research on the specific methods
> advocated by Jerry-the-nitwit.

Then perhaps it would be wiser to DO such a research, before dismissing
his method as one that "doesn't work". Because, just as I and others
had the opportunity to find out, it does work - often for dogs on which
the traditional methods have failed completely.

> And I have no idea what his record is,
> other than his record of antagonism and abuse here in this group.

Well, you must have missed this post:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/42830b4e1b9...

<<I have not posted to the group for awhile but want to share my
success
of teaching my dog Sunshine, who has a very high prey drive, to not go
after squirrels when on a walk.  It took a few trials but he can now
walk right past squirrels running up a tree or in a yard.   Using Jerry

Howe's approach I used a sound to get his attention when he saw a
squirrel and then praised him and kept on walking past the squirrel.
Where we live in Michigan we lots of squirrels and he was always
wanting to chase them up a tree.  Jerry's approach of sound and praise
really works.  I think the people who discount his methods have never
tried the method because it works everytine.  Sometimes it takes a
little practice to get the sound from different directions but I was
able to change Sunshine's behavior in just a week after we moved back
to Michigan.>>

And this one:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/msg/10ffa408006...

<<I have tried his methods and found them extremely effective.  There
are several areas in particular I found useful. He teaches you and the
dog
to pay attention to each other all the time.  He teaches you to have
such
good communication with your dog you don't need leash corrections or
shock
collars or even food, you can get the dogs attention any time you like
by calling it or with a snap of your fingers.  When I trained both my
dogs
to "heel" or walk close to me I ended up going to the parks and
teaching
them without a lead at all, that ensured I had to use good
communication and
was unable to be tempted to use the lead to correct them.

Another part of the training I agree with is not using the "policeman"
approach,
where you tell a dog "no" or react with it in such a way that you
become involved
in the behaviour (by trying to stop it), this approach often results in
a dog ceasing
the behaviour when you are about but doing it when you aren't (bin
raiding, counter
surfing etc). Basically you are taught to make your dog a good friend
who likes and
wants to work for you for the pleasure of working for you (setting the
hierarchy is
included in this), teach it to recall reliably, then to do everything
else (sit, stay down
etc etc). Unwanted behaviours are addressed as they occur.  If you
understand what
you are trying to achieve and are prepared to work with it you can get
great results. >>

These are just two examples, from people (other than me) who have
recently posted here. There are others as well.

> >> Now to a purely positive trainer, it's better that the dogs who cannot be
> >> trained with only positive methods be euthanized as untrainable than to
> >> subject them to even the mildest correction.

> >> I disagree.

> > I don't think that it's preferable to euthanize a dog that one trainer
> > cannot train and I doubt that any sane trainer would prefer to kill a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > someone who knows better. I just don't believe that "better" means
> > hurting the dog in order to make it do what I want.

> That's the faith - that there is always some positive method out there
> that will work, even if no one alive knows what it is.  Suppose you're a
> pet owner with a problem dog, dealing with a trainer like you.  You
> propose some solution, the owner gives it a try, and it doesn't work.
> You propose another, and you quickly run through the short list of your
> acceptable methods, and none of them work.

> What do you do then?  Insist that there has to be a positive solution
> somewhere, even though you don't know what it is?  What does the pet owner
> do?

Jeff, I WAS the pet owner who was dealing with a difficult puppy. What
I did, after the advice I got in Real Life didn't work, was look for
help in this forum. I read a bit and was lucky enough to find Jerry's
method, which was the easiest to apply and entirely nonviolent. It
worked from the first try. It worked in what the destructive behavior
was concerned, it worked about puppy nipping at our hands, it worked
about aggression towards other dogs, it worked about pulling on leash,
it worked about counter surfing, it worked about fear of thunder - what
more a simple pet owner like me could ask for?

> If you've implanted sufficient guilt over how terrible it would be for
> them to discipline their dog, they walk away and just live with a problem
> dog - with both they and the dog miserable.  Until they just can't put up
> with it any more and have the dog put down.

I doubt that anyone in their right mind would rather kill their dog
than try a different trainer. Especially after a trainer that didn't
use corrections failed. I'd rather guess that one would give up after
having tried more violent methods, because if THOSE couldn't help, what
COULD... We do have a tendency to think that force is the ultimate
answer - like going to war when everything else had failed.

> Far too few of them will write you off as an ignorant wacko - you never
> come across as such, after all, and you so clearly intend well for the
> dog.  And so far too few will recognize that you're simply wrong, and seek
> out someone who will do what is necessary to train the dog.

I'm not a trainer, but if I were one I'd tell my clients that - if I
fail - it doesn't mean that their dogs are not trainable, or that they
- the owners - are incapable of whatever the training of their dog
requires. And I'd never advise them to put down the dog. I'd just
acknowledge the limits of my ability as a trainer and advise them to
find help elsewhere.

Now, can you tell me that a trainer sticking to the conventional
methods (such as, say, Janet B.) would do the same, if their training
failed?

Lucy

> -
> coloradoskibum

But you're WELCOME to enterTRAIN yourself to death with MOORE of THIS
INSANITY:

> > Take the dog back to the vets and quit self dosing before you kill it.
> > Four Benedryl is WAY too much for a 65 lb dog.  There are other
> > medications that are suitable for a dog.
> >
> > Celeste

> >> The reason I ask is because 4th of July is coming up, and one of my dogs
> >> is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >> --
> >> coloradoskibum

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAAA!!!

The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ )  >
coloradoskibum - 12 Jun 2006 02:14 GMT
Ahh...Another self-righteous loser who cannot provide any pertinent
information.  Thanks...plonk!
-
coloradoskibum

> HOWEDY coloradosikbum,
>
>> 4 was what the vet RECOMMENDED,
>
> INDEEDY. Dogs REQUIRE abHOWET 3-4 times the human dosage of Benadryl.

> <pages of mindless drivel snipped to spare everybody from having to read
> it>
The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply_Amazing_Grand_Puppy_Wizard_@HotMail.Com - 12 Jun 2006 04:37 GMT
HOWEDY coloradoskibum,

> Ahh...Another self-righteous loser

You mean The Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ )  >,
coloradoskibum?

You didn't LIKE the half dozen or so CASE HISTORIES of
NEARLY INSTANTLY CURING fear of LHOWED NOISES?

> who cannot provide any pertinent information.

Oh? You mean LIKE THIS?:

Here's your own FREE COPY of The Insanely
Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard's

                        The  *666* Edition Of Your Own
                                    FREE COPY
                                            Of
       The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard's
        100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
                                     FREE WWW
               Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual <{) ; ~ ) >

                               <{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
                       <{#}: ~ } >               < { ~ :{@}>
                 <{#}: ~ } >                            < { ~ :{@}>
 <{#}: ~ } >  http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D < { ~ :{@}>
                 <{#}: ~ } >                            < { ~ :{@}>
                       <{#}: ~ } >                < { ~ :{@}>
                               <{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>

>  Thanks...

You're quite welcome <{) : ~ )  >

WELCOME to The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy
WIzard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Forums <{); ~ ) >

I'm Jerry Howe, The Insanely Freakin Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

> plonk!

The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard intentionally
didn't give you HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE *666*Edition Of Your Own

                                    FREE COPY
                                            Of
       The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard's
        100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
                                     FREE WWW
               Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual

on accHOWENT of HE wanted to MAKE SHORE you was PAIN ATTENTION.

> -
> coloradoskibum

THANK YOU for ASKIN!

ENJOY!

> > HOWEDY coloradosikbum,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> > <pages of mindless drivel snipped to spare everybody from having to read it>

Yeah, that REALLY DRIVES DOG ABUSERS INSANE, don't it, coloradoskibum?

The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ )  >

BWEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Deborah, DVM - 12 Jun 2006 01:44 GMT
>4 was what the vet RECOMMENDED, so you can back off with the self-righteous
>remarks.
>
> Now, anybody have an answer to my question?
> -
> coloradoskibum

Xanax can be safely used in dogs.  That being said, I cannot tell you if it
can be used in *your* dog safely, nor can I tell you what the appropriate
dose is.  Contact your vet, they should be able to help you out.  Plus, let
me tell you for legal reasons, you could definitely get in trouble for
giving controlled prescription medication to anyone other that the one who's
name is on the prescription, and yes I'd imagine that would apply to your
dog as well!  Xanax actually appears to be one of the preferred sedatives
for dogs with thunderstorm/noise phobias, but like any drug it can have side
effects and must be used with caution.

Deborah, DVM
coloradoskibum - 12 Jun 2006 02:16 GMT
Ahh, thank you Deborah...finally, an answer.  I'll start experimenting with
dosage before the "big day" (which lasts about 2 weeks around here--even
though fireworks are illegal state-wide).
-
coloradoskibum

>>4 was what the vet RECOMMENDED, so you can back off with the
>>self-righteous remarks.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Deborah, DVM
Hillary Israeli - 22 Jun 2006 04:43 GMT
*Ahh, thank you Deborah...finally, an answer.  I'll start experimenting with
*dosage before the "big day" (which lasts about 2 weeks around here--even
*though fireworks are illegal state-wide).

See, this is the sort of response that makes me never want to answer
anyone's questions again.

Deborah clearly explained you need to talk to your vet to find out if this
drug can be used safely in your dog, and at what dosage. There are a lot
of factors here, too complicated to go into in a simple usenet post. Now
you are assuming, based on Deborah's brief comment that this drug can
safely be used in some dogs, that it is ok to use it in yours, and you
even say you're going to experiment with the dose. Poor Deborah probably
feels terrible now because you could kill your dog due to some false sense
of security you got from her post.

Bleah.

Signature

             Hillary Israeli, VMD
             Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
                 too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

Deborah, DVM - 23 Jun 2006 18:32 GMT
> Poor Deborah probably
> feels terrible now because you could kill your dog due to some false sense
> of security you got from her post.

What I wanted to do when I read his reply was figure out how to report him
to the authorities for abuse of a narcotic :-).  I definitely wasn't going
to dignify his reply with any response.  I do hope the he hasn't killed his
dog, though, for the dog's sake only.  That's what you get for trying to be
nice.

Deborah, DVM
Brittany - 24 Jun 2006 10:52 GMT
Whatever you do DON'T give your dog Xanax!

REMEMBER our brains are totally different comparing to dogs.

Brittany

> The reason I ask is because 4th of July is coming up, and one of my dogs is
> completely inconsolable for the entire month-long event...the slightest
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> gave up I was giving him 4 at a time!  He weighs about 65 lbs.  Any
> thoughts?
 
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