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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / July 2006recommendation for ear products for poodle
I have two poodles, a toy and a mini. The toy has ear problems a lot. Problems include red coloring, dark/crusty gunk and itching. I pull the hairs several times a week (a few at a time to not overwhelm him, he's sensitive about stuff like that) and also use a ear powder to aid in the inhibition of bacterial growth (according to the box). The ear powder is called PetGold Ear Powder. I also use Otomax ointment when I notice the ears looking particularily red and gunky. His ears get cleaned several times a week with Cerumene ear cleaning liquid (from the vet) which helps pull out a lot of gunk. I am looking for any other good products that I would either use in addition to these or instead of these. I have tried DermaPet MalAcetic Otic with unsatisfying results. I was looking for some products that will maybe help the problems go away and stay away, maybe a powder that is used daily? Has anyone ever tried line of products from Gimborn? I looked into them before and noticed it was three separate things that are used together. Anyone had success with them? Thanks for any input. It is always appreciated. > I have two poodles, a toy and a mini. The toy has ear problems a lot. > Problems include red coloring, dark/crusty gunk and itching. .........Has the vet ever taken a look at the ear gunk under the microscope? It's better to see if you can find the cause of the problem. I recently had a dog they discovered had ear mites. I don't remember the last time there were ear mites in the house - probably 25 yrs. ago and it was the furthest thing from my mind. Ear symptoms didn't fit either. Fortunately I haven't found anyone else in the house with mites, which surprised me. I have a microscope so I was able to check this myself. use a ear powder to aid in the > inhibition of bacterial growth (according to the box). The ear powder is > called PetGold Ear Powder. I also use Otomax ointment when I notice the > ears looking particularily red and gunky. ........I wouldn't use Otomax myself. It's been implicated in deafness. His ears get cleaned several > times a week with Cerumene ear cleaning liquid (from the vet) which helps > pull out a lot of gunk. I am looking for any other good products that I > would either use in addition to these or instead of these. .......I like the Ear Cleansing Solution by Vet Solutions. I get it at the vet clinic. Has anyone ever tried line of products from > Gimborn? I looked into them before and noticed it was three separate things > that are used together. .......A holistic vet once gave me a 3 bottle process that worked well. One of them was a foaming solution to clean the ear. They were from Animal Dermatology Laboratories. I've never seen them in any clinic since, so they may be hard to get through a regulaar vet. buglady take out the dog before replying >> I have two poodles, a toy and a mini. The toy has ear problems a >> lot. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > microscope? > It's better to see if you can find the cause of the problem. I second that entirely. If you have bacteria, you may have a resistant infection. If you have yeast, then you may not be treating the infection fully (it requires 7-10 days of topical medication minimum), or you may have an underlying allergy (food comes to mind immediately). If your vet hasn't done an ear slide, it needs to be done asap! > use a ear powder to aid in the >> inhibition of bacterial growth (according to the box). The ear powder is >> called PetGold Ear Powder. I also use Otomax ointment when I notice the >> ears looking particularily red and gunky. > > ........I wouldn't use Otomax myself. It's been implicated in deafness. I've never had a problem with otomax. It does contain gentamicin, which is ototoxic (can cause deafness), but so do the vast majority of ear medications! Regarding the powder, I can't imagine that is doing anything other than gunking up the ears worse. I doubt an OTC product truly has an antibiotic, and if it does, you're probably only selecting for resistance ;-). > His ears get cleaned several >> times a week with Cerumene ear cleaning liquid (from the vet) which helps >> pull out a lot of gunk. I am looking for any other good products that I >> would either use in addition to these or instead of these. I may be mistaken, but I think the cerumene is simply a product to break up wax, and in an of itself can cause problems if not flushed completely out of the ear canal. So you should be using it, but probably not more than every 1-2 weeks max, and then flushing the ears out with water to remove all traces of the cerumene. I'm not 100% sure about the need to flush it out, but I do know that it doesn't provide any drying properties, and IMHO you cannot manage chronic ear infections without providing a dry environment. So I'd recommend simply trying a good cleaner/drying agent every 3-4 days. I like epi-otic or oti-rinse. The company that makes oti-rinse also makes a nice foaming cleaner that you can use before the oti-rinse called oti-foam. > Has anyone ever tried line of products from >> Gimborn? I looked into them before and noticed it was three separate [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > they > may be hard to get through a regulaar vet. I'm not familiar with gimborn's products. I have a set of small sample bottles of the 3-step cleaners from ADL -- I got them at a conference but haven't tried them yet. Basically the same principle as the otifoam/rinse combo, but with a "medicated" product as well. Here's a link to a good handout on managing ear infections. http://www.cpvh.com/Articles/65.html Hope it helps! Deborah, DVM >>> I have two poodles, a toy and a mini. The toy has ear problems a >>> lot. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > infection. If you have yeast, then you may not be treating the infection > fully (it requires 7-10 days of topical medication minimum), the otomax is usually used 10 days (2x a day) with really bad infections (that crop up every few weeks). otherwise, I only use it several days in a row. I should also mention that I have an earscope that allows me to see a lot of the ear. I usually notice that it is wet so I definately need to find a way to get it and keep it dry. should I stop using the "wet" products for a bit and maybe just do ear drying stuff to see what that does? I also plan to call the vet but that is usually not a fix all. >or you may have an underlying allergy (food comes to mind immediately). If >your vet hasn't done an ear slide, it needs to be done asap! how about a deep cleaning while knocked out? would this be worthwhile? >> use a ear powder to aid in the >>> inhibition of bacterial growth (according to the box). The ear powder [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > medications! Regarding the powder, I can't imagine that is doing anything > other than gunking up the ears worse. ok, I will look for other things to use and talk to the vet. >I doubt an OTC product truly has an antibiotic, and if it does, you're >probably only selecting for resistance ;-). [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > oti-rinse also makes a nice foaming cleaner that you can use before the > oti-rinse called oti-foam. thanks, I will check them out. >> Has anyone ever tried line of products from >>> Gimborn? I looked into them before and noticed it was three separate [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Hope it helps! thanks, I will check it out! >> I have two poodles, a toy and a mini. The toy has ear problems a >> lot. >> Problems include red coloring, dark/crusty gunk and itching. > > .........Has the vet ever taken a look at the ear gunk under the > microscope? three times, twice I got meds (once Anamax and once Otomax) because there was an infection and the third time they said it was just ear wax so they cleaned the ear and gave me the Ceremune to use at home. > It's better to see if you can find the cause of the problem. I've discussed the ears with the vet almost every time I go. all of the vets at the practice (I've seen at least 4 different ones) say not to worry about it and just make sure I do my best to keep the ears clean and dry. I mentioned allergies and the vet didn't agree it looked like "allergy ears". Is there an ear specialist I should be going to? > I recently had > a dog they discovered had ear mites. I don't remember the last time there [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > ........I wouldn't use Otomax myself. It's been implicated in deafness. really? yikes, I don't want that. Any other suggestions? I had Anamax before, is that good or basically the same problem? > His ears get cleaned several >> times a week with Cerumene ear cleaning liquid (from the vet) which helps [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the > vet clinic. I will check it out, thanks. > Has anyone ever tried line of products from >> Gimborn? I looked into them before and noticed it was three separate [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > they > may be hard to get through a regulaar vet. I will google this and see what I find. Thanks for all the input and suggestions > really? yikes, I don't want that. Any other suggestions? I had Anamax > before, is that good or basically the same problem? I use Animax a lot, find it effective, and have never had any problems with it. Mainly I am dealing with infections that include yeast, possibly with other problems, with or without allergies. Is there some reason not to regularly use an ear cleaner such as Nolvasan Otic or Epi-Otic, to gently remove the residue? Amy Dahl >> really? yikes, I don't want that. Any other suggestions? I had Anamax >> before, is that good or basically the same problem? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is there some reason not to regularly use an ear cleaner such as > Nolvasan Otic or Epi-Otic, to gently remove the residue? not sure, I am going to talk to the vet tomorrow and see what we can do to get the ears better, once and for all > I've discussed the ears with the vet almost every time I go. all of the > vets at the practice (I've seen at least 4 different ones) say not to > worry about it and just make sure I do my best to keep the ears clean and > dry. I mentioned allergies and the vet didn't agree it looked like > "allergy ears". At our practice, when we have stubborn ear problems that puzzle everyone in the long run, we put the dog on Hills Z/D (for food allergies) and they clear within a month. Not trying to do harsh promotion, just stating what has worked for us (our dog included). At least consider food allergy if nothing else has worked. Most importantly, follow the other advice here and get that gunk smeared and looked at. Your OTC products may be adding to the problem, not managing it (much less curing it). Get this under control before your trip to the beach (coming up soon, eh?) ;-) >> I've discussed the ears with the vet almost every time I go. all of the >> vets at the practice (I've seen at least 4 different ones) say not to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > clear within a month. Not trying to do harsh promotion, just stating what > has worked for us (our dog included). I mentioned trying that diet for Maui and the vet said no, it wouldn't work. He doesn't appear to have allergies. I am going to call tomorrow and ask again. Maybe they can swab the ears and check under the scope again (for the fourth time). > At least consider food allergy if nothing else has worked. Most > importantly, follow the other advice here and get that gunk smeared and > looked at. Your OTC products may be adding to the problem, not managing it > (much less curing it). ok > Get this under control before your trip to the beach (coming up soon, eh?) > ;-) yes, we are leaving the first weekend in August! > I mentioned trying that diet for Maui and the vet said no, it wouldn't > work. He doesn't appear to have allergies. I am going to call tomorrow > and ask again. Maybe they can swab the ears and check under the scope > again (for the fourth time). ????? Makes no sense to me. I'd kill to have a client actually willing to try a hypoallergenic diet when dealing with chronic ear problems! I recommend it frequently, but rarely have anyone who will do it! There is nothing in particular about allergic ear disease to make it look any different than any other ear disease. Maybe you should consider asking your vet for a referral to a dermatologist (or just see if there's a dermatologist around that you don't need a referral for). There aren't any "ear specialists" per se, but ears are skin, so dermatologists are the experts :-). Deborah, DVM >> I mentioned trying that diet for Maui and the vet said no, it wouldn't >> work. He doesn't appear to have allergies. I am going to call tomorrow [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ????? Makes no sense to me. I'd kill to have a client actually willing > to try a hypoallergenic diet when dealing with chronic ear problems! I am willing to try anything to solve these problems. I'm surprise my vet isn't also. >I recommend it frequently, but rarely have anyone who will do it! There is >nothing in particular about allergic ear disease to make it look any [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"ear specialists" per se, but ears are skin, so dermatologists are the >experts :-). ok, I will try that route and let you know. > I mentioned trying that diet for Maui and the vet said no, it wouldn't > work. > He doesn't appear to have allergies. I am going to call tomorrow and ask > again. Maybe they can swab the ears and check under the scope again (for > the fourth time). Going to Z/D wouldn't hurt one bit. If the vet isn't being proactive you need to get a second opinion, even if you have to go to an emergency clinic some night. It's pricey, but there's no waiting list. We've had good compliance with clients using Z/D and great results. Once you see results, (and it can take up to a month) it's pretty amazing and cheaper overall since you are no longer seeing the vet for chronic problems, getting meds and treating etc. What's to lose? > yes, we are leaving the first weekend in August! We'll wave from Rodanthe. We leave next weekend! >> I mentioned trying that diet for Maui and the vet said no, it wouldn't >> work. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > need to get a second opinion, even if you have to go to an emergency > clinic some night. It's pricey, but there's no waiting list. yeah, it is pricey but I agree. If the vet isn't going to accomodate, its worth a shot to try a clinic. thanks for the idea. >We've had good compliance with clients using Z/D and great results. Once >you see results, (and it can take up to a month) it's pretty amazing and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > We'll wave from Rodanthe. We leave next weekend! sounds good, we will be in the Nags Head area. > three times, twice I got meds (once Anamax and once Otomax) because there > was an infection .......bacterial or yeast? and the third time they said it was just ear wax so they > cleaned the ear and gave me the Ceremune to use at home. all of the > vets at the practice (I've seen at least 4 different ones) say not to worry > about it and just make sure I do my best to keep the ears clean and dry. I > mentioned allergies and the vet didn't agree it looked like "allergy ears". > > Is there an ear specialist I should be going to? ........If your dog doesn't have a yeast or bacterial inection that needs cleaning up, then the ears are only a symptom, not the main problem. I had Anamax > before, is that good or basically the same problem? ........I'm not familiar with that product. buglady take out the dog before replying >> three times, twice I got meds (once Anamax and once Otomax) because there >> was an infection > .......bacterial or yeast? bacterial (I think) but I will ask when I call to see what they wrote in the chart > and the third time they said it was just ear wax so they >> cleaned the ear and gave me the Ceremune to use at home. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ........If your dog doesn't have a yeast or bacterial inection that needs > cleaning up, then the ears are only a symptom, not the main problem. ok > I had Anamax >> before, is that good or basically the same problem? > > ........I'm not familiar with that product. I spelled it wrong, it's Animax http://www.vetmeddirect.com/i_012PHD01-15_Animax+Ointment+Rx+15+ml.php (I get it from the vet though) >> three times, twice I got meds (once Anamax and once Otomax) because there >> was an infection > .......bacterial or yeast? the first one was bacterial and the second one was yeast, according to the vet's records > the first one was bacterial and the second one was yeast, according to the > vet's records .........That's interesting that it's NOT the same problem, but a succession of problems. buglady take out the dog before replying > > the first one was bacterial and the second one was yeast, according to the > > vet's records [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > buglady > take out the dog before replying Not necessarily unusual. Antibiotics can cause an overgrowth of yeast. Regards >> the first one was bacterial and the second one was yeast, according to >> the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > succession > of problems. does that mean anything in particular? Is one kind or the other a bigger indicator of food allergies vs other problems? I can also double check with the vet when I take Maui in next week for the big Z/D talk but I am fairly sure that's what the tech said (both kinds of infections) > I was looking for some products that will maybe help the problems go > away and stay away, maybe a powder that is used daily? Has anyone ever > tried line of products from Gimborn? I looked into them before and > noticed it was three separate things that are used together. Anyone had > success with them? Thanks for any input. It is always appreciated. IMO you need to find out what the problem *is*- that is entirely way too much ear cleaning! Healthy ears should only need attention once a month. Ear powder is solely for gripping- regardless of what it advertises it is not an antibacterial. And you don't even know if your problem is bacterial, fungal, or a combination of the two, or mites or yeast. I don't mean to be harsh, but a different brand is not what you need- you need a different vet, one who takes ear infections seriously. Save yourself and your dog a lot of misery and have the ear exudate cultured to find out specifically what the organism/s is, then treat it appropriately. It should be eliminated, not managed. And a quick review of diet couldn't hurt- sometimes allergies manifest in the strangest ways, and overgrowth of yeast is one of the most common.  SignatureToni http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com >> I was looking for some products that will maybe help the problems go >> away and stay away, maybe a powder that is used daily? Has anyone ever [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > IMO you need to find out what the problem *is*- that is entirely way too > much ear cleaning! yes, I agree. I want the problems to go away and stay away but am not having much success. >Healthy ears should only need attention once a month. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mean to be harsh, but a different brand is not what you need- you need a > different vet, one who takes ear infections seriously. I agree but it is hard to switch vets where I live. you have to be waitlisted and takes a while. is there an ear specialist I should look into? > Save yourself and your dog a lot of misery and have the ear exudate > cultured to find out specifically what the organism/s is, then treat it > appropriately. > It should be eliminated, not managed. yes, this is what I want, the problem gone. I am just getting little help from the vets on how to do that > And a quick review of diet couldn't hurt- sometimes allergies manifest in > the strangest ways, and overgrowth of yeast is one of the most common. Maui eats California Natural Lamb and Rice for a few months now. Before that, he was on a chicken based food from Pro Plan. > I have two poodles, a toy and a mini. The toy has ear problems a lot. blue power ear treatment http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:lCVulRATyY0J:itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/Blue %2520Power%2520Ear%2520Treatment.pdf+Blue+Power+Ear+Treatment&hl=en&gl=us&ct=cln k&cd=2&ie=UTF-8 or http://tinyurl.com/n7sut Regards >> I have two poodles, a toy and a mini. The toy has ear problems a lot. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Regards thanks, I will check it out "MauiJNP" <jmh1116@ptd.net> wrote in message: > Thanks for any > input. It is always appreciated. Just agreeing with everyone else that this could just be a symptom of something else. When Pan first came to me, she had yucky ears that needed frequent cleaning. That went away within a couple of months of staying with us. Backtracking, it turned out that her ear problems started right after her former owner got a cat (she lived with two for some time). We don't know for sure if that's what it is, but there is a fairly good chance that whatever was causing her ear problems was environmental, because it stopped after she started living here, and her food had not changed. Not trying to scare you, but please try to find a competent vet and get this addressed ASAP. A coonhound mix that used to come to the dog park had severe and recurring ear problems, and eventually, it required surgical intervention. Suja >> Thanks for any >> input. It is always appreciated. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > severe and recurring ear problems, and eventually, it required surgical > intervention. my vet called me back today (left a message yesterday so we could talk about Z/D diet). She agreed to see Maui and consider trying the diet. I have an appointment set up to take him in and hopefully come home with some Z/D or at least a prescription for it. > my vet called me back today (left a message yesterday so we could talk > about Z/D diet). She agreed to see Maui and consider trying the diet. I > have an appointment set up to take him in and hopefully come home with > some Z/D or at least a prescription for it. Can't hurt! Remember - nothing BUT Z/D. The point is to eliminate. However, ask about a treat like baby carrots. Our Hills rep said OK. Better - freeze some Z/D in a zipper baggie. Dogs love the cold crunhy treat and you're completely within the diet. Don't expect immediate results. It takes a while for the body to cleanse out that which it is allergic to. We always say finish one large bag or wait a month - usually 3 weeks or so you'll see improvements if there are any to be made. -Sharon >> my vet called me back today (left a message yesterday so we could talk >> about Z/D diet). She agreed to see Maui and consider trying the diet. I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -Sharon sounds good, I will add "ask about carrots" on my list, thanks! > sounds good, I will add "ask about carrots" on my list, thanks! Keep in mind that carrots are high in sugar. I don't know about dogs, but in humans, sugar exacerbates inflammation and itching (steer clear of it if you have allergies or something like poison ivy). Sugar is also implicated in the development of yeast infections, so if Maui's ear problems are yeast related, carrots might not be a good idea. SignatureShelly (Warning: see label for details) http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship) http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther) >> sounds good, I will add "ask about carrots" on my list, thanks! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > implicated in the development of yeast infections, so if Maui's ear > problems are yeast related, carrots might not be a good idea. oh, ok >>> sounds good, I will add "ask about carrots" on my list, thanks! >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > oh, ok While they *are* high in sugar, its my understanding that as long as they are uncooked, the majority of the carrot (sugar included) passes, undigested, right through them. My ex-hub's dog was undergoing treatment for Mast Cell cancer last year. He was getting treatment for him from both traditional vets as well as holistic ones, and was trying to keep sugar levels down (he switched Buster over to an organic, homemade modified "cancer fighting" diet). He checked with the holistic vet about carrots, and was told that cooking breaks down the sugars (or something like that....my memory is nothing if not poor), and makes all of the carrot more readily available. But raw, most of the carrot passes through undigested. Don't know if the science behind it is true, but I do know that whenever I feed a dog an uncooked carrot, most of it shows up the next day from the other end :-) Tara |
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