> Evidence shows that the vaccines are effective for 3 years, or thereabouts.
> (actually I'd guess that the evidence shows that they are probably good for
> longer than that, but 3 years is to be on the safe side, but I haven't read
> the papers on it, so I don't know). Its then a safe thing to vaccinate every
> 3 years.
> The other side is probably a bit more complicated.
> 1. You most likely aren't doing any harm vaccinating more often than
> required.
.........This is a common fallacy, AFAIC. We have no idea if repeated
unnnecesary vaccicnations do harm or not and there's some evidence that they
do - autoimmune hemolytic anemia for one.
> 2. You may be doing some good (obviously every dog is different, so the
> vaccines will be good for different amounts of time).
........That depends on the dog's health, as I already mentioned. And I do
not believe that confusing an immune system with repeated multivalent
vaccines is a good thing. Especially if the immune system of the dog is
niot competent to begin with.
> 3. Some owners will probably not come in for an annual health check, unless
> they have shots due. Annual health checks are important. Therefore, by
> recommending vaccinating less often, your patients may actually on average
> be worse off.
> I know one of the vets at the
>> clinic I'm volunteering at has a bit of a pet peeve about people who try
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> better
> than this vet.
They might, but the average person visiting the vet with some print out
probably doesn't. If the person is well enough respected, chances are that
information in some form or another has passed that vets desk at some time
or another.
I've never read the original research on the issue (if someone can point out
the research articles, I'd love to read them. If I have a chance, I'll see
if I can dig them out), but I can certainly imagine the research that would
have to be conducted, and I can imagine what the results would say, and how
they would on average be interpreted. (I'm assuming that some research has
in fact been done). Take a set of dogs. Vaccinate them. Check their titres
after a couple of weeks to get a baseline. Re-test titres yearly, and watch
as they fall. At the point where x% of the original dogs have titres below a
certain level, must revaccinate.
This obviously begs the question, what x% is low enough? 5%? 10%? 1%?
Obviously where you set this number is going to have a huge impact on where
you set the number of years between vaccines. Obviously the safest place to
put it as far as what the vaccines are trying to protect you against is 0%.
Anything above that may be deemed an unacceptable risk (you'd be pretty
pissed if your dog picked up distemper 2.5 years after being vaccinated
against it, if your vet told you the vaccine would be good for 3 years!).
Obviously with something like this, its normally safer to ere on the side of
caution.
>I don't go to vets who don't listen to reason. There's no
> reason to keep vaccinating your dog over and over once they've developed
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> your
> childhood vaccines every 3 yrs?
Some vaccines are due at various intervals throughout your life. Some of
this is based on the bodie's abbility to handle the disease, and the chance
of being exposed to it. I'm not a doctor, and I've never had kids, so I
don't know all the details. I know tetanous is good for 10 years (just had
my 10 year booster a few months ago). Your flu shot is only good for one
year.
>Doesn't work any differently in dogs.
Can you prove that? What evidence do you have? I don't know the details of
the doggy immune system, and how it reacts long term to vaccines. Presumably
they are similar to some extent, but how similar? Without
evidence/studies/etc, this statement is meaningless. I think you're probably
right, but how do you *know* you're right?
>With
> rabies they plain don't care if the dog is immune for 3,7 10 yrs or
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> ........Vaccine companies have no reason on doG's green earth to run
> expensive tests to prove their vaccines last longer.
No, but fortunately other people/universities/vets do have reason.
>After all they're
> selling vaccines and this is very expensive reasearch as it is long term.
> Schultz and Ford have been working on these issues their entire careers.
> The rabies lasts at least 7 yrs with direct challenge in the small number
> of
> dogs they worked with. Research is ongoing. Read the studies.
I intend to...eventually. I haven't had a chance yet, in the meantime, I
plan on trusting my vet. But from what you've said, I can certainly
understand why some vets might be skeptical of their results. How small is a
"small number of dogs"? How much variation within their sample?
> .......The most important thing to consider is the health of your dog. If
> the dog has anything wrong with him at all, including problems with
> allergies, he might not mount a sufficient response to a vaccine. So
> don't
> vaccinate at that point because you're probably not going to get a good
> response.
And if their is something wrong with the dog, that neither you, nor the vet
has pinpointed? If you're only going to get one kick at the can here, you'd
better be darn sure its going to take.
>Vaccines don't run out on the date of that card you get from the
> vet. There's no reason to rush to get them by a certain date.
Nor does your milk immediately expire on the date on the carton, but it is
going downhill by that point.
>> The other side is probably a bit more complicated.
>> 1. You most likely aren't doing any harm vaccinating more often than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> they
> do - autoimmune hemolytic anemia for one.
In lack of long term, large studies, which side are you going to fall on?
Personally I'm fine with vaccinating once every 3 years. But I'm trying to
point out reasonable reasons why someone who has read all the same studies
might come to different conclusions. The big question is, at what point does
the risk outweigh the benefit? A rare condition, that may or may not be
caused by the vaccine (how closely have these/can they be tied?) or
protection against a highly contagious condition present in the population.
Right now we are quite fortunate that a very high fraction of dogs are
vaccinated, and we can protect them against these things. If you start
pushing vaccinate once, and forget about it, how many people will go to not
vaccinating at all? If the study wasn't large enough, and say 0.1% of dogs
only keep their immunity for 2 years, then out of a million dogs, there are
1000 of them that are unprotected. How common is autoimmune hemolytic
anemia? How much are the chances raised by repeated vaccinations?
I've seen a dog with distemper, I've never seen a dog that I know of with
autoimmune hemolytic annemia.
>> 2. You may be doing some good (obviously every dog is different, so the
>> vaccines will be good for different amounts of time).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> vaccines is a good thing. Especially if the immune system of the dog is
> niot competent to begin with.
If the dog isn't healthy, then I'd say, no probably vaccinating again would
be stupid, and probably irresponsible, given my knowledge of the
circumstances.
>> 3. Some owners will probably not come in for an annual health check,
> unless
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ........Baloney. Do you go in for a yearly checkup?
Honestly? No I don't. Should I? Probably. But I don't. I'm probably a lot
more competant to determine if I'm well, than I am to determine if my dog is
well.
My dog sees the vet far more often than I see the doctor.
> You should know that
> there are actually discussions on the net by vets about losing the yearly
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> other
> dogs in to see the vet, nor will it make my dogs more immune.
I've been volunteering at a vet clinic for about 4 months now, so I feel
somewhat competant to comment on this. I would estimate, that at least at
the clinic I'm at (which adhears to a 3 year protocol), most appointments
aren't annual checks, and most don't include vaccines. Most of the
appointments are "My dog/cat isn't feeling well". The bread and butter of
the practice, seems to be spay/neuters,ear infections and lumpectomys. I
don't think the bottom line would be much different if they vaccinated every
yearly check that came through the door.
The biggest asset to the practice, is probably how much the clientelle trust
them, and are loyal to them (many of them driving for 45+minutes to get to
the office)which is something that is built up over many years of practice.
Dale
buglady - 30 Dec 2006 20:48 GMT
> I've never read the original research on the issue (if someone can point out
> the research articles, I'd love to read them.
..........Just read the AAHA article, all the refs are at the end.
but I can certainly imagine the research that would
> have to be conducted,
.........You can imagine all you want. Schultz actually directly challenged
the dogs with the disease.
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/IVIS.pdf
More at:
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/chapter_frm.asp?L
A=1
This one you have to sign up to view. It's free and you don't have to be a
vet.
More on studies in UK:
http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/abstract/154/15/457
Excellent discussion by Israeli Vet Assn:
http://www.isrvma.org/article/59_3_1.htm
>I know tetanous is good for 10 years (just had my 10 year booster a few
months ago).
.........Tetanus is not a communicable disease.
>Your flu shot is only good for one year.
.......The flu virus mutates every year and that's the reason for yearly
shots.
> Can you prove that? What evidence do you have?
...........Most mammals use the same system. A simple Google search gives
you answers. Here's a good synopsis:
http://ackcsc.org/articles/VaccineGuidelines.pdf
......Here's SAME immunology lectures delivered to med AND vet students:
http://www-immuno.path.cam.ac.uk/~immuno/part1.html
I don't know the details of
> the doggy immune system, and how it reacts long term to vaccines.
.........then do some reading please.
>I haven't read the papers on it,
.........then do some reading please.
A rare condition, that may or may not be
> caused by the vaccine
.................Schultz and others have listed the concerns with adverse
reactions in their PAPERS. Do some reading. Aren't you the guy who wants
to go to vet school? At this point your mind should be like an open window.
You ought to be amassing information and doing your own thinking, not
defending what you imagine is status quo from volunteering at one clinic for
4 months.
Links and excerpts from DVM mag discussing vax issues:
http://www.britfeld.com/dvm.htm
> Right now we are quite fortunate that a very high fraction of dogs are
> vaccinated,
.........How do you know that?
I'm probably a lot
> more competant to determine if I'm well, than I am to determine if my dog is
> well.
.........Most people who really pay attention to their dogs KNOW when
they're not well. Even you mention that most come into the clinic because
they're dogs are quite *right*.
buglady
take out the dog before replying
Dale Atkin - 30 Dec 2006 21:40 GMT
> .................Schultz and others have listed the concerns with adverse
> reactions in their PAPERS. Do some reading. Aren't you the guy who wants
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> for
> 4 months.
I'm skeptical of everything, including the status quo. I demand evidence for
everything, and I am amassing as much information as I can on everything. I
happen to agree with my vet (and the 3 year protocols stated in the original
post) from what I do know.
I read everything I have the time to read, but classes, and work have to
take priority over recreational learning. What I am trying to show, is that
perfectly reasonable people can disagree over the interpretation of data,
even if it is presented in a peer reviewed journal.
Dale
Dale Atkin - 30 Dec 2006 22:03 GMT
> .........You can imagine all you want. Schultz actually directly
> challenged
> the dogs with the disease.
> http://www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/IVIS.pdf
Just had a look through that article. I didn't read it in depth, but I'm a
wee bit concerned about some of the figures presented, like 80% will acquire
immunity after x vaccines, or 25% will not acquire immunity, and these are
quoted relative to the minium vaccination protocol. Come on, do you really
want to live with 1 in 5 odds? Frankly even 1 in 100 is too much for me. No
numbers were presented for the >7 years efficacity, as far as how many dogs
were tested, and how many actually got the disease (was it 0? that's what I
interpreted here, but I'd like to see the raw data, if the author is happy
with an 80% success rate, I imagine they would be prepared to say a vaccine
is good for 7+ years if that were true for 98% of dogs studied)
I want the raw data, or at least the statistical tests they did in order to
make these recommendations. As you rightly pointed out, I should be doing my
own thinking, and this paper doesn't give me the information I need to draw
my own conclusions.
> ...........Most mammals use the same system. A simple Google search gives
> you answers. Here's a good synopsis:
> http://ackcsc.org/articles/VaccineGuidelines.pdf
> ......Here's SAME immunology lectures delivered to med AND vet students:
> http://www-immuno.path.cam.ac.uk/~immuno/part1.html
I have to admit, I haven't been able to go through this in any detail,
considering its probably a 4 month course, you'll have to forgive me. The
general aspects of immunology are probably pretty similar in most vertebrate
species, let alone most mammals, but as they say, the devil is in the
details.
> I don't know the details of
>> the doggy immune system, and how it reacts long term to vaccines.
> .........then do some reading please.
Believe me, I will, and I thank you for the links.
>>I haven't read the papers on it,
> .........then do some reading please.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to go to vet school? At this point your mind should be like an open
> window.
Just to add to what I said before... Everything I read ends up in my brain
somewhere, and I do do quite a bit of reading (vaccination protocols just
haven't been a major area of research for me yet), but *nothing* is accepted
on faith alone. Everything has to be weighted, as far as source of the
information, and how well is fits with other pieces of the puzzle already in
place.
Right now, my mind is fairly blank as far as immunology goes, so I have to
make sure that my basic facts are accurate as far as they go. I *know* there
is disagreement among various practices as far as vaccine protocols go.
(acutally I think most practices around here go for a 3 year schedule). What
I'm trying to understand, and believe that I do in fact understand, is *why*
that disagreement exists.
What in your mind, constitutes and acceptable percentage of 'unprotected'
but vaccinated dogs for a vaccine program? Is 0% attainable? (I would guess
that it isn't). Is an increase in that number acceptable (very marginally, I
would say possibly)? What percentage of dogs develop adverse reactions after
repeated vaccinations? These are very important questions, that I don't
believe there are clear cut answers to (mostly the last question, due to
difficult associated with tying a reaction to the vaccine).
> You ought to be amassing information and doing your own thinking, not
> defending what you imagine is status quo from volunteering at one clinic
> for
> 4 months.
Actually I imagine the status quo, around here at least is the 3 year
protocol.
> Links and excerpts from DVM mag discussing vax issues:
> http://www.britfeld.com/dvm.htm
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> they're not well. Even you mention that most come into the clinic because
> they're dogs are quite *right*.
So are you saying the annual health checks are unnecessary?
Dale
buglady - 31 Dec 2006 00:00 GMT
No
> numbers were presented for the >7 years efficacity,
.........Go read the actual study of you want numbers. That paper was just
a discussion of the issue.
> So are you saying the annual health checks are unnecessary?
.......That's up to the dog owner. I'm saying that annual vaccinations are
unnecessary.
buglady
take out the dog before replying
ganjatoker@gmail.com - 31 Dec 2006 18:40 GMT
Thanks to both of you for the lively discussion! You made some great
points and I think I understand the issue much clearer now. I'll be
sure to mention the 3 year schedule to my vet (as they have been
sending me vaccination reminders after only 1 year, which is a bit
annoying to be honest...), but I won't act as though its just something
I found in a quick Google search. I'm also someone who likes to read
full studies, although my specialty isn't veterinary medicine. I'll
attempt to convey this without sounding too arrogant! In the end though
I'm going to go for 3 year vaccinations as I just adopted our chihuahua
a year ago and we aren't sure of how old she is. She is probably about
10 and although she is in good health I don't want to push things,
seeing as she doesn't spend time around other dogs!
I really think it's wonderful that people do research on this topic as
of course it is not in the best interests of the companies who
manufacturer the vaccines to do so. It's heartening to see that this
research is being done. It really is a huge paradigm shift if pets are
to be given vaccines every 3 years now instead of every year and I'm
surprised I haven't heard about this before via the news...
Happy new year!
buglady - 31 Dec 2006 23:53 GMT
I just adopted our chihuahua
> a year ago and we aren't sure of how old she is. She is probably about
> 10 and although she is in good health I don't want to push things,
> seeing as she doesn't spend time around other dogs!
......Even walking around in the environment, dogs are continually
challenged with diseases. If they have any kind of immunity at all to the
diseases, this natural exposure can boost their immunity. And since your
dog is 10 years old, I'd really read up on the necessity of giving more than
1 parvo or distemper vaccine for the rest of her life. These are diseases
dogs are more susceptible to as puppies. I'd be especially careful with a
toy like a Chi as sometimes they react to things a big dog doesn't. You'd
really be better off with single vaccines a few weeks apart, especially if
you've never had her vaccinated before and don't know how she'd react.
It really is a huge paradigm shift if pets are
> to be given vaccines every 3 years now instead of every year and I'm
> surprised I haven't heard about this before via the news...
......Yeah, you'd think it was a secret! shhhhhhhhhh... Actually the point
is that vax is a medical procedure like any other and the risk vs. benefit
must be weighed for the necessity for each vaccine. For people hanging out
in dog parks every day or going to shows all the time, a different vaccine
schedule may be more appropriate.
> Happy new year!
......same to you......and your pup of course!
buglady
take out the dog before replying