orphaned kitten "nursing" on littermate
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Laurie - 21 Apr 2007 02:43 GMT I'm fostering 2 kittens with no mother, and the kittens are just around a half pound each, making them around 2 weeks old. They take KMR and home-made kitten "glop" from a syringe very well and have each gained 20/100ths of a pound in the week and a half I've had them. Now that they are a little more mobile, (walking on wobbly legs instead of just pulling themselves around and stumbling) one of the kittens has started "nursing" off the privates of the other kitten. She nurses pretty hard (it's loud!) and the littermate tries to get away but is the smaller of the two and ends up just crying but not being able to get away. I have separated them as much as I hated to, because I don't want the smaller one injured or unable to sleep because of the other kitten. I'm wondering if there's something SAFE I can apply to the babies that would taste awful (bitter apple maybe?) to keep this from happening so I can put the babies back together. Do you think Desitin (made for human babies with diaper rash) would be safe? If so, it would solve two problems at once, as the babies are beyond the "stimulation" stage but not able to stand up and squat, so their elimination is always still on them after they go. I do bathe them once a day so their skin doesn't burn from the mess, but in order to truly keep them clean they'd need to be bathed 8 times a day! I really want to keep these babies together. Thanks!
Spot - 21 Apr 2007 03:00 GMT Desitin......NO Bitter apple yes it's not harmful it just taste bad.
Celeste
> I'm fostering 2 kittens with no mother, and the kittens are just around > a half pound each, making them around 2 weeks old. They take KMR and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > be bathed 8 times a day! I really want to keep these babies together. > Thanks! DianeLeMasson - 21 Apr 2007 04:13 GMT > Desitin......NO Bitter apple yes it's not harmful it just taste bad. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > be bathed 8 times a day! I really want to keep these babies together. > > Thanks! Having rescue kits myself I found to be helpful a furry stuff animal for them to cuddle next to. Take out some stuffing if needed so it's very soft. What I've done also with kits this young who needs that mommy touch is fine a stuff toy you can stick nursing bottles in. Cut tiny holes & take out some stuffing to be able to do this. Not so much you want the bottles to fit in tightly. You may need to hold both the toy on your lap to get them use to it. Young as they are & being hungry most of the time they'll adapt to it. Not a hairy toy but the furry type. As kits do while they nurse is knead while they suckle & go off to sleep. I found by doing this they'll leave each other alone. Basically your producing a surrogate mother for them. Place this stuff toy on the floor with the bottles in it & let them nurse at free will. You may need to place their mouths to it till they get the idea. As for your other problem at 2 weeks old I still help them through that. After eating, using a warm wash cloth, rub their bellies, downward stroke till they did go. I found holding them in a towel, more on the thick side, easier to hold a wigglely kit in, making your movements like the mothers tongue. I found it was better on me to do this rather than washing their little bottoms all the time. That area can get sore then you end up with more problems & for them not wanting to go. Good luck! Hope this was helpful.
Diane
Laurie - 21 Apr 2007 05:17 GMT > > Desitin......NO Bitter apple yes it's not harmful it just taste bad. > > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Diane Thanks to both of you for replying. Diane your reply brings up a question... how do you get the kittens to nurse off a bottle with a nipple without helping them? I've only had luck with a bottle when I held it and gently coaxed the formula out (not really squeezing, just pushing in a little to help.) I either can't get the hole in the nipple big enough, or I make it too big. Either way I give up and go back to using 3 ml syringes. I would love it if I could rig up a fake mother with a bottle, if I could actually get a bottle to function. Both babies already do have stuffed furry animals to cuddle with but they have always had each other up until tonight so they ignore the stuffed animals. I did the stimulation thing with the damp washcloth but they have started to go on their own. It's breaking my heart to keep them apart so in the morning I'll go look into getting some bitter apple. I hope it won't sting their sensitive skin.
DianeLeMasson - 21 Apr 2007 08:13 GMT > > > Desitin......NO Bitter apple yes it's not harmful it just taste bad. > > > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > apart so in the morning I'll go look into getting some bitter apple. I > hope it won't sting their sensitive skin. Hi
How often are you feeding them? Yes I know how hard it is to make that hole in the nipple. I too either burn them too much or the hole was too big also. Took many tries before I got it right. Are they fighting the nipple? Are they refusing the nipple? Remember one thing they're going to suck & they can suck hard so what you might think is working too hard for it, it isn't for them. If you see nothing in their mouths or they're getting far to frustrated to the point they're refusing it then I'll say stop. Then try to make the hole a little bigger & see what happens. Consider a different needle to see if you can get a better hole. Can you find different nipples? Are your nipples pointy or is the tip flat like? Keep in mind those nipples are kinda hard not like mom's soft ones so it takes getting use to. Change positions in how you feed them. Are you holding them in your hand, how are you holding them and do you wrap them in a blanket/towel? I feel the little one who is sucking off the other probably needs to be fed more. Or has a much more of a drive, more needy, to be near one of it's own kind. Such as missing the mother, her body contact, to hear a heart beat. Ever watch a litter with it's mother, you'll usually see one or more who attaches, seems hardly to leave her side? Maybe this little guy is just that. If you see that this little one becomes stress out not being with the other one then I would try to keep them together. Or at least give them plenty of time to be together. Too much stress at this age isn't good. As for them taking the nipple, we all have different ways but for the most part if they're hungry enough & they can sense the milk, they'll do the rest. To get them to take that strange thing that is sort of hard put the nipple as you drawn it in to the roof of their mouths. This will get the mouth to open. Squeeze it a little so some milk comes out. If too much comes out & is choking them just turn them over & pat their back a little. Stay calm! Another way, lean back kind of, in their wrap put them on your chest so that they hear/feel your heart beat. This will calm them as your feeding them. Tell me more of what they are doing & what they are not doing as far as the feeding that has you concern? Pushing out the formula for them is fine. You gotta keep in mind these nipples are not like moms which are soft & easy to hold on to so it probably feels strange to them. Just keep putting it in their mouths no matter how many times they push it out. Trust me I know how difficult it is to have to bottle feed such young babies. Not at all like feeding a human baby. You will do fine & they'll be okay. Keep posting to let us know how your doing.
Diane
Laurie - 21 Apr 2007 14:03 GMT > > > > Desitin......NO Bitter apple yes it's not harmful it just taste bad. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 144 lines] > > Diane They are being fed about every 3 hours around the clock. They have warming disks (those snuggle safe things you put in the microwave which stay warm for a couple of hours) wrapped in towels for them to sleep on, and they each have a stuffed animal now that they are separated. I don't use a nipple and a bottle for them because I gave up. I feed them with a 3 ml syringe which I keep reloading and reloading. The one who was nursing off the other one is definitely the one with the bigger appetite. She will take 24 mls of KMR during the same feeding that the little boy will barely take 6 mls! I'm worried about the little boy, but so far he's hanging in there. A week ago I gave them each .25 ccs of Nemex. I worry enough about their little psyches as it is, being raised without a mother, but now after separating them I feel even worse. All they have in the world is each other. Thanks for all the advice! I'm going to try to get a nap while they are quiet and then check into the bitter apple.
DianeLeMasson - 21 Apr 2007 17:40 GMT > > > > > Desitin......NO Bitter apple yes it's not harmful it just taste bad. > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] > other. Thanks for all the advice! I'm going to try to get a nap while > they are quiet and then check into the bitter apple. Hi
Ah-Ha!, you answer a question I forgot to ask, your problem child is a female. :-) The more demanding one. Actually the more needy one. Try feeding her less than 3hrs. If you do this give her less food if you shorten her time feedings. I found with some of the female kits I had who were more needy such as more body contact with the mother usually stuck on the mothers teat for security, comfort & not always just to eat. Seems she found that in her sibling as to why always sucking on him. Poor little fellow. She substituted his 'you know what' <sigh> because her needs are greater in the situation she is in. Females are like that! As much as it is a pain for you my suggestion is still try giving them a bottle once in awhile. Only for the fact kits have a high suck drive. Which is natural for all babies, human as well as for our fur balls. As for their psyches, I won't worry that much, your doing a wonderful job because you do care. Is this your first time? As long as they get play time with each other, separating them till they or she gets over this is a good thing. Sometime ago someone sent me this link (your gonna laugh) but by this time I didn't have any kits in my care. Someone with a great imagination and much love for animals thought of this wonderful invention. If you are doing this on a regular bases you might want to invest in one of these. See: http://www.catsifier.com/ I wish you the best of luck & thank you for all your hard work in giving these little guys a chance. You can email me if you'd like. Good luck & take care......
Diane
Laurie - 26 Apr 2007 17:58 GMT Thanks to everyone who gave me advice. I sort of like the idea one of you had about that "catifier" or whatever it was called, but I also wonder if it's maybe a little cruel, like the poor kitten finally finds a "mom" with nipples it can suck on all day but it never gets full! Anyway this particular kitten might need something like that. I still have the two separated because she still tries to nurse off the little boy. My next question is, can the kittens eat/drink A/D until they are weaned? I mix KMR into it to make a slurry which they drink from a syringe. The little boy (he's now about 10 ounces) really hates plain KMR but he adores A/D. The little girl (she's almost 13 ounces) likes both plain KMR and the A/D mixed with KMR. I never had bottle babies eat A/D before, they always lived on KMR until they were weaned. I offered the A/D out of desperation when the little boy stopped taking KMR cold turkey and wouldn't even take my home made kitten formula. I don't want to feed them food that's either too rich or isn't right for growing babies though. Is A/D ok?
Deborah, DVM - 21 Apr 2007 19:10 GMT Couple of suggestions for you.... 1st off I'd still recommend stimulating them to make them pee/poop every time you feed them. Yes they can go on their own, but as you have found, they wind up making a mess and they can get some pretty nasty skin problems from urine and fecal scalding. Much easier to just have them potty every time you feed them, then you avoid the issue. 2nd off I'd try harder to get them to actually take a bottle. If you can't get the nipple right, take it to your vet and ask for their help (we do this fairly frequently). If it's that you can't get the kittens to actually nurse, then you are probably just not being mean enough! I find that with kittens it is best if you grab their little heads in your hand and firmly hold the jaw between your thumb and forefinger with one hand, while you force the nipple in their mouth with the other hand. It might take a few minutes for them to really latch on, but once they get going they usually do well.
Regarding the "nursing" -- presumable the one being nursed on is male? I've seen this a lot, not much you can do besides separating them, but that's often more traumatic than just letting her get away with it. I wouldn't recommend desitin for sure, the only problem with the bitter apple is that you are likely to burn his little private parts if they are already sore. Do try putting some small stuffed animals or a blanket in with them to try to encourage suckling something else.
Good luck.
Deborah, DVM
> I'm fostering 2 kittens with no mother, and the kittens are just around > a half pound each, making them around 2 weeks old. They take KMR and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > be bathed 8 times a day! I really want to keep these babies together. > Thanks!
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