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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / January 2008Sleepaway
I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She writhed and jerked on the table, while she was whimpering and yipping. All this before the entire syringe contents had been injected into her. After awhile of this goin on, the vet-tech left the room as I was asking what was happening. She returned a minute later with another syringe which I later found out was another dose of the same drug. Comet continued jerking and whimpering until she finally passed after the second dose of the Sleepaway.I am not sure what to do. My vet contacted the company that gave them the drug. They gave no real anwers. But they did say that they will come pick up all of this drug that they have on hand, and bring them new stuff. My dog is the third animal to experience this. They are saying it was most likely some form of barbituate euphoria. I am heartbroken and instead of feeling that I did what was best for my sick old girl. I feel that I killed her inhumanely. Any information would be so helpful. I cannot let this go. Not just for Comet. But for everyother pet owner out there who has to make this decision. I may have to live with this nightmare. But no one else should have to. > I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be > peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > decision. I may have to live with this nightmare. But no one else should > have to. I had the same happen to me with three dogs. >> I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be >> peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She >> writhed and jerked on the table, while she was whimpering and yipping. >> All this before the entire syringe contents had been injected into her. >> After awhile of this goin on, the vet-tech left the room as I was asking >> what was happening. You're a bit unclear here, was the tech giving the injection, or was it the vet? What was the training of the tech? What were the pre-existing conditions that the dog had? >> My dog is the third animal to experience >> this. Is this on this bottle? or at this clinic? or with this person administering? If its the third one on that bottle, and its a fresh bottle, then obviously there is something *very* wrong with that bottle. If its the third for the person administering, and they are relatively new at this, well I'd blame the person administering. I've seen many euthanasias (I volunteer at a vet clinic), and I've yet to see one go this badly (although I have heard of it happening...perhaps someone with more knowledge could fill us in on why it goes badly sometimes.). I've seen animals that they have a hard time finding the veins, or the veins blow, or the animal doesn't die after the requisite dose, animals that completely freak out when the needle comes anywhere near them, but I've yet to see the really graphic, 'bad reaction' kind of euthanasia. >> They are saying it was most likely some form of barbituate >> euphoria. I am heartbroken and instead of feeling that I did what was >> best for my sick old girl. I feel that I killed her inhumanely. What happend was very unfortunate, and in general pretty rare. I've seen cases where the owners have refused to euthanize, the long drawn out suffering can be very hard. There was one I remember that we had in that eventually we had to refuse to treat any further. We had her hospitalized every day for weeks. By the end of it, you could see that she just wanted to go. >> Any >> information would be so helpful. I cannot let this go. Not just for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > I had the same happen to me with three dogs. Was this all at the same vet? Or different vets? If it was the same place, I'd be finding another vet. These kinds of reactions should be rare. If you've had it happen to three of your dogs, something is very very wrong. I also might insist that my dog was somehow tranquilized prior to the administration of the euthanasia drug. Dale > en to me with three dogs. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dale This was three different vets. The first one was a dog i rescued from the pound. It had a history of biting, which I felt the dog at least deserved an evaluation. So i sprung it from the pound, put it in the kennel (as a parvo prevention buffer from it's uncertain background for my personal dogs). It was friendly that day that I rescued it. It was young, appeared health. The next day, i walked out to the kennel to feed, and it lunged for my throat. That was it. My evaluation was over, and i made an appointment for the nearest vet. I wasn't going to work with it, I wasn't going to attempt to place it. I certainly wasn't keeping it, and I didn't want a dog like that out there representing my breed. Liability was written all over that dog. The second vet was a secondary vet that I used as an alternative when I couldn't get into my regular vet. It was my personal dog (22 years old, in systematic organ failure) The veins were rolly (as common in my breed) and the circulation was a factor. Never the less, the vet gave her 4-5 shots and it took almost 45 minutes to put her down. I could have driven home, and shot my dog more humanely. It was a nightmare, and my dog did not deserve to go out like that. Having had a bad experience twice, when Danny's time came (My best dog ever) at 14 1/2, I asked the vet to sedate him first. (My personal vet) and he said it wasn't necessary. I told him the last two dogs I put down went badly. I just didn't want to risk it. He said no worries, this was fast, quick and humane. I told him I really wanted him sedated first. I would gladly pay. He felt it unnecessary. And Danny screamed, and sure enough, wouldn't go down, requiring a second shot. He looked at me, and I knew he couldn't believe it. He trusted me. This was in 2004, and i still recall the terror in his eyes. Not exactly the way you want to recall the final moments of your favorite dog. I don't think i am going to trust any of my dogs to any vet any more. I'll just do it myself. I love my vet, But I hated him and still resent it, that he would not sedate him first. It's such a simple request. I would have felt so much better about it, and so would have he. >> en to me with three dogs. >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > quick and humane. I told him I really wanted him sedated first. I would > gladly pay. He felt it unnecessary. At this point I would have walked out and gone to another vet, never to return to that one. Its really not acceptable on the vets part (and pretty stupid of him really) not to use sedation when the client is insisting on it (even if in his judgement the likelihood of a reaction is remote.). I wonder if its something about the breed. I take it from your descriptions that this is one of the breeds with a bad rep. Care to be more specific? I'd like to chat with some vets and see if they have any insight here. >And Danny screamed, and sure enough, > wouldn't go down, requiring a second shot. Its not the requiring a second shot that gets me, its the screeming. Sometimes they do get nervous and tense up as the shot starts to hit their system, but I've never seen anything like what you're describing here, and I'd really like to know why it happens. > He looked at me, and I knew he couldn't believe it. He trusted me. This > was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that he would not sedate him first. It's such a simple request. I would > have felt so much better about it, and so would have he. I don't know if I'd be taking it on myself, given that there are certaining options which will prevent this from happening, and certainly vets ready and willing to sedate your pets first (I imagine that your vet that refused to sedate your dog before would be one of them). I for one am not sure how 'quick and painless' a bullet to the brain would be (I assume that is what you're talking about when you say you'll take care of it yourself), and I imagine that the potential for complications is probably even greater than that with a barbituate overdose. Dale > At this point I would have walked out and gone to another vet, never to > return to that one. Its really not acceptable on the vets part (and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be more specific? I'd like to chat with some vets and see if they have > any insight here. All three were Norwegian Elkhounds > Its not the requiring a second shot that gets me, its the screeming. > Sometimes they do get nervous and tense up as the shot starts to hit their > system, but I've never seen anything like what you're describing here, and > I'd really like to know why it happens. Senja Screamed in panic and screamed and screamed and screamed. I was watching the clock, and it took 40-45 minutes(it was seven years ago, so I forget how many exactly, But i looked at the clock and knew i could have driven her home and back in that amount of time.. which would have been that time range) Danny did not take so long, but he was very much aware, and also screaming. I don't remember the Rescue dog, it was even longer ago than Senja. But i know the vet injected her many times. I could understand the older one with poor circulation. But the rescue dog was young and healthy. The vet was giving the injection. The vet-tech just went to get another dose. I haven't asked yet if these three reactions were all out of the same bottle. Or if they are the same vet. This is a new town for me. I have only been here a year. So unfortunately I couldn't go to Comet's regular doctor. Comet had Cuschings disease accompanied with a tumor, as well as kidney disease. I had to euthanize a cat that was 17 years old. She went so peacefully. I really thought it would be the same for comet. Thanks for the ideas on new questions to ask. If the drug company is coming to pick up the whole batch it makes me think it was more than one bottle. But I will find out. >>> I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be >>> peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > >Dale >I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be >peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She writhed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >But for everyother pet owner out there who has to make this decision. I may >have to live with this nightmare. But no one else should have to. i'm very sorry for your horrible experience. and for comet's. we do sometimes have pets vocalize, but it's rare. in the times i've seen it, i've been pretty comfortable that the dog was not in pain and was not aware. i don't know if that's what happened in comet's case, but i truly do hope so. in all the euthanasias that i've both done and assisted with (many), i've never, not once, seen a dog go down like you described. we have sometimes needed a second injection for a dog with poor circulation whose heart hasn't stopped but is unconscious, but still, there has never been a reaction like that. even if the injection was given poorly- out of the vein- it should not have caused a reaction like that. it simply would not work. no one should have to go through that and have those images to carry with you. i am truly, truly sorry. i would be heartbroken as well.  Signaturehttp://underdogged.net x-no-archive:yes in headers Thankyou. Apparently my vet agreed. This was not normal! The drug company is taking their entire stock of this drug and replacing it with new stuff. I just wonder how long it will take to find out what the problem was. I'm geussing that the FDA at least if not more agencies have to get involved since they picked it up to test it. This whole thing has been crazy. But I'm determined to get to the bottom of it for Comet. And for the other animals that suffered like she did, because of a faulty drug, or inadequate vet. Whatever it turns out to be. >>I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be >>peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She writhed [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >no one should have to go through that and have those images to carry >with you. i am truly, truly sorry. i would be heartbroken as well. I had my Black Lab put down three years ago, a vet I always used. He got the needle in right away and the dog fell to the table but arched his back as though he was ready to seizure, it took about 60 seconds. He told me this is an unconscious condition, but I couldn't believe what was happening. The Vet acted as though it was normal. I am an RN and I don't want any pt. suffer or experience adversity in any way, so why should our animals? I felt his last day was horrible. He was my best dog ever! I have told everyone in my community about this experience, I hope he looses pts. over this. My friend recently used a Vet here in town - ANGELS AT THE END.The female Vet comes to the house and euthanizes the animal. My friend said is was a comforting experience. I don't know what some of these vets are using, but it's scary to think that could happen again. I know how sad you are. I will keep in my thoughts. >I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be > peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > may > have to live with this nightmare. But no one else should have to. This vet that I went to used Sleepaway! Am having a hard time finding another vet that uses it. >I had my Black Lab put down three years ago, a vet I always used. >He got the needle in right away and the dog fell to the table but arched his [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> may >> have to live with this nightmare. But no one else should have to. > I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be > peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She writhed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > But for everyother pet owner out there who has to make this decision. I may > have to live with this nightmare. But no one else should have to. ============== Wow, I don't blame you for how you feel. What a horrible experience that must have been. I never had that type of experience with my two dogs. Both dogs went extremely peacefully and without pain. Neither one twitched at all. The vet talked me through exactly what would happen; that first the dog would fall asleep and then the dog's heart would stop beating. That was how it happened for me; just that way. The vet had to tell me when the dogs had passed as they looked the same and never moved. It only took seconds. I walked away thinking how peaceful it all had been for both of them. It made me feel better that I was there with them at the end seeing that it all went smoothly. Had I had your experience, I think I probably would have blamed the vet. Wouldn't a good vet know exactly which drugs would be the best to administer and the amount needed in order to do the job right for your particular dog through experience and training? Was it a technician that put your dog down and not the vet? I know if I had an experience like that, I would never go back to that vet again. I am sorry it had to end that way for you and your dog Comet. > I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be > peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction ........I am so sorry. What a horrible exprerience. My vet contacted the company that gave them the drug. ............At least the vet was sufficiently disturbed to contact the company and try to do something about this issue, though if I understand you correctly this was the third time that happened that he knew of. Sleepaway is made by Fort Dodge: http://www.drugs.com/vet/sleepaway.html I'd also suggest your vet make an ADE: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/adetoc.htm You may also report adverse reactions by telephoning the Center for Veterinary Medicine at 1-888-FDA-VETS. Under Cummulative reports - pentobartibal, there are quite a few ineffective euthanasias listed. http://www.fda.gov/cvm/ade_cum.htm If your vet does not want to do this, you can. buglady take out the dog before replying Thank you so much for the sites and number to call. Geuss I know what I'm doing over lunch tomorrow. >> I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be >> peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >buglady >take out the dog before replying >I had my 12 year old dog put down yesterday. Was told that it would be >peaceful and painless. It went horribly in the other direction. She writhed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >But for everyother pet owner out there who has to make this decision. I may >have to live with this nightmare. But no one else should have to. Truly a horror story. I'm sorry to hear that it happened to you (or to anyone). Bottom line: it wasn't your fault. I can well imagine a good anesthesiologist, if not constrained by law, making the process much more predictable/humane. Just start an IV and administer large doses: a.) sodium thiopental (quickly put them under). b.) (perhaps) Pentabarb (keep them under) c.) potassium chloride (stops heart) To the group. Pardon my lack of knowledge, but are vets allowed to handle and administer the above pharmaceuticals? I may have serious need of knowing in a few years. Thanks, I > I can well imagine a good anesthesiologist, if not constrained by > law, making the process much more predictable/humane. Just start [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to handle and administer the above pharmaceuticals? I may have > serious need of knowing in a few years. They can, and do. The active ingredient in many euthanasia drugs (including sleepaway) is pentabarb, administered IV. Sometimes at my vet's they'll pre-tranq them with Dormitor (Medetomidine) intramuscularly if they have reason. Dale > I can well imagine a good anesthesiologist, if not constrained by > law, making the process much more predictable/humane. Just start > an IV and administer large doses: You know... I was thinking after I wrote the last post about an article I read (I don't recall the magazine...it was a main stream one). It was all about how poorly thought out, and overly complex the human system of lethal injection is, and all the horrible things that can (and have) gone wrong with it (agonizing long drawn out deaths). The general feeling around the vet's office is that the system they use for animals is (in general) much more humane and less prone to error. It sounds like there may have been a problem with this particular batch of the drug. In general, the animal system is very humane. What may I ask makes you think that a vet, who has been trained to perform euthanasia, and has likely performed it hundreds of times would be less apt than an anesthesiologist who has likely never performed the proceedure let alone properly inserted an IV in to an animal, (which is much more difficult than in a person due to among other things the likelihood that the animal will bite, scratch, claw you). Add to that that the animal proceedure has been performed many many many times more often than the human proceedure, and a concerted effort has gone in to making the animal proceedure as humane as possible, I really think that the typical animal proceedure is the best we've got (other than potentially pre-tranqing the animal, which is often done). Anyways, hope I haven't ranted too much, Dale >> I can well imagine a good anesthesiologist, if not constrained by >> law, making the process much more predictable/humane. Just start [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >injection is, and all the horrible things that can (and have) gone wrong >with it (agonizing long drawn out deaths). As near as I can tell, many states use, for lethal injection, something like: 1.) Sodium thiopental (Abbott Sodium Pentothal)- Induces coma 2.) pancuronium bromide (~Pavulon)- freezes muscles 3.) potassium chloride - stops heart The problem seems to be that 1.) wears off (~ 5 min.) while they are doing whatever they do with 2.) and 3.), leaving the executionee conscious but immobile ("cruel and unusual ..."). There is a case presently before the US Supreme Court ... There have also been similar cases in anesthesiology (during surgery). Many feel that the problems arise primarily from insensitivity/bungling, particularly by law enforcement/prison bureaucracies. >The general feeling around the >vet's office is that the system they use for animals is (in general) much >more humane and less prone to error. It sounds like there may have been a >problem with this particular batch of the drug. In general, the animal >system is very humane. Well, the particular batch won't explain Diddy's experience over several years. No? >What may I ask makes you think that a vet, who has been trained to perform >euthanasia, and has likely performed it hundreds of times would be less apt >than an anesthesiologist who has likely never performed the proceedure let >alone properly inserted an IV in to an animal, (which is much more difficult >than in a person due to among other things the likelihood that the animal >will bite, scratch, claw you). The thought never occurred to me until I read the orig. post and Diddy's responses. When we had to put my cradle-to-grave pooch down in '96, there was no problem. The vet used what looked like a single pink solution, found a vein, administered, the poor fella let out a big sigh and collapsed. Broke my heart (I was holding him), but it was done properly/ humanely. If I hadn't been such a wreck, I would've asked about the lethal solution. >Add to that that the animal proceedure has >been performed many many many times more often than the human proceedure, >and a concerted effort has gone in to making the animal proceedure as humane >as possible, I really think that the typical animal proceedure is the best >we've got (other than potentially pre-tranqing the animal, which is often >done). Usually using only pentabarb? I dunno. Anesthesiologists are more extensively trained and are held to stricter standards? Anesthesiologists do pediatratric work. Children and babies are not necessarily easier to handle than dogs, etc. Anesthesiologists live in a world of needles and solutions. Size up a job, start an IV, administer just the right dose(s) of just the right solution(s) for the job. It's what they do, "Day in, day out". Very different from a regular doc or vet. I have no problem with the notion that vets generally manage a good job of euthanasia, but I can't explain these variances from the norm, hence I feel that extra precautions may sometimes be called for. A more detailed question: do vets commonly stock thiopental and potassium (I know they generally have pentobarb)? For an extra $30 or so, I'd be strongly inclined to request all 3. >Anyways, hope I haven't ranted too much, I, for one, didn't take any of it as a rant. Regards, I snipped > As near as I can tell, many states use, for lethal injection, something > like: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are doing whatever they do with 2.) and 3.), leaving the executionee > conscious but immobile ("cruel and unusual ..."). Typical animal euthanasia solutions contain large amounts of pentobarbitol, often with some phenytoin mixed in (another anesthetic, makes it a little "smoother" usually). The pentobarb overdose pretty much stops the heart within 60 seconds max barring any unforeseen conditions in the animal. I always figured that human lethal injection was so involved and lengthy a procedure for 2 reasons: #1 to allow people to "witness" the procedure, #2 because they don't want to have to keep such large quantities of pentobarb on hand. It actually takes a while for potassium to stop the heart, and yes, having the sedative and paralytic wear off before the heart is stopped is a problem. You just don't know about it because the person is paralyzed and can't move or scream. Not very humane. I would say that >95% of the animals I euthanize simply go to sleep peacefully within seconds of administering the solution. A small percentage of animals gasp after the heart has stopped, which is a reflex and is unavoidable. Rarely they vocalize, but it's also after the heart has stopped and is an unavoidable reflex. I warn all owners that there is a minute chance this might happen. Often animals cry when you initially poke them with the needle, again it's unavoidable. Whether you are administering a sedative or the euthanasia, a needle is still going to be involved. From my point of view, I'd rather only make an animal experience one needle poke, not multiple. When I have issues with apparent "painful" euthanasias, it's almost always because I've inadvertently administered the solution outside of the vein, and unfortunately that happens sometimes. It definitely hurts (having injected myself accidentally I can vouch for that). Then there are the weird cases -- I once had a cat to whom I administered the typical dose of euthasol (label dose is 1cc per 10 lbs, I usually double it, so this 8# cat received 2 cc). She was still sitting up and purring at us. Another 2 cc's administered, cat still purring and looking at us. I looked at my tech, said "you did see me give 4 cc, right? and it went into her vein, not on the table, right?" she was as flabbergasted as I was. Finally after another 2 cc's the cat died. It was very peaceful, but bizarre. Luckily the owner had chosen not to be present, because I'm sure that the cat having to have 3 injections would have been very distressing. I don't think there is any way to account for individual animal physiology. I feel horrible whenever a euthanasia goes poorly, so I hope the original poster's vet at least apologized. If not, if they thought it was routine, then I'd probably be looking for another vet as well. And for whoever it was who had 3 animals have bad euthanasias, I'd definitely have to wonder if there was a breed issue. I've never put down an elkhound so couldn't speak to that. But there are some breeds who are either overly sensitive or overly tolerant of certain classes of drugs, so it's entirely possible. > A more detailed question: do vets commonly stock thiopental and > potassium (I know they generally have pentobarb)? For an extra $30 or so, > I'd be strongly inclined to request all 3. Thiopental no, it's pretty out of favor as an anesthetic. Potassium yes. Paralytic agents, no. Deborah, DVM Deborah writes: > I always figured that human lethal injection was so involved and lengthy > a procedure for 2 reasons: #1 to allow people to "witness" the procedure, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > heart is stopped is a problem. You just don't know about it because the > person is paralyzed and can't move or scream. It's my understanding that this rather awkward scheme is used so that the people who administer the drugs can leave the room before the curtains are opened for the observers to observe the death. That way the executioners can remain anomymous without wearing black hoods. Seems to me that the technicians could place a catheter and the warden could press the plunger while the observers watch. SignatureJohn Hasler john@dhh.gt.org Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI USA >snipped >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >always figured that human lethal injection was so involved and lengthy a >procedure for 2 reasons: #1 to allow people to "witness" the procedure, Good point. I suppose they have to put on a show for certain folks. >#2 >because they don't want to have to keep such large quantities of pentobarb >on hand. I don't think pentobarb is much used for human lethal injection. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_injection and similar sources. >It actually takes a while for potassium to stop the heart, and >yes, having the sedative and paralytic wear off before the heart is stopped >is a problem. You just don't know about it because the person is paralyzed >and can't move or scream. Not very humane. There's little or nothing humane about the whole dog-and-pony show to my knowledge. >I would say that >95% of the animals I euthanize simply go to sleep >peacefully within seconds of administering the solution. A small percentage [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >minute chance this might happen. Often animals cry when you initially poke >them with the needle, again it's unavoidable. Understood. >Whether you are administering >a sedative or the euthanasia, a needle is still going to be involved. From >my point of view, I'd rather only make an animal experience one needle poke, >not multiple. I concur 100%. But what I tentatively proposed (3 drugs) just begs install of a catheter. Back in '01 I had open surgery. Because of post-op problems, I had to back-track what was done in anesthesia. The A-doc had a record of it. He had started an IV, installed a catheter, then pumped Versed, Demerol, some fentanyl compound, and about 7 other solutions into me. The problem evidently had nothing to do with anesthesia, but, what the A-doc did put me in touch with the business of anesthesiologists controlling active body processes with various IV solutions. Is it practical, if deemed necessary/desirable, to install a catheter in a dog, possibly after install of a cone-collar? I know there could be some trade-offs in making euthanasia more complex. If 99% certain that a simple pentabarb injection would do the job, I'd likely opt for it. It would help if some of these strange cases (i.e. your cat, the elkhounds) could be at least tentatively explained. >When I have issues with apparent "painful" euthanasias, it's >almost always because I've inadvertently administered the solution outside [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >to have 3 injections would have been very distressing. I don't think there >is any way to account for individual animal physiology. If you have any ideas as to why the cat survived 2 lethal injections, I'd be very interested to hear. >I feel horrible whenever a euthanasia goes poorly, Anyone would, I should think. >so I hope the original >poster's vet at least apologized. If not, if they thought it was routine, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >to that. But there are some breeds who are either overly sensitive or >overly tolerant of certain classes of drugs, so it's entirely possible. "Sensitive" flew right by me. I suppose if a dog had been getting massive doses of phenobarb for grand mal seizures, "tolerant" could explain part/all of the story. They still use phenobarb, don't they? >> A more detailed question: do vets commonly stock thiopental and >> potassium (I know they generally have pentobarb)? For an extra $30 or so, >> I'd be strongly inclined to request all 3. > >Thiopental no, it's pretty out of favor as an anesthetic. Potassium yes. >Paralytic agents, no. To my knowledge, paralytic agents are not indicated. If specifically requested by a dog owner, would you triple the pentabarb dose to help insure effective euthanasia? Thanks, I > I suppose they have to put on a show for certain folks. They are required by law to do the execution in the presence of representatives of the public. If you think about it for a minute you will realize why that is necessary. SignatureJohn Hasler john@dhh.gt.org Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI USA >> I suppose they have to put on a show for certain folks. > > They are required by law to do the execution in the presence of > representatives of the public. If you think about it for a minute you > will > realize why that is necessary. I tried. I can't for the life of me think why this might be necessary. Dale > Is it practical, if deemed necessary/desirable, to install a > catheter in a dog, possibly after install of a cone-collar? ......Catheters are sometimes used, depends on the vet. My current vet didn't use a catheter for my elderly cat (which was only one of a few euthansias I have gone through). I was a little stunned at first, expecting trouble, but he said he's found that putting in a cathether bothers them more than just giving the injection. She went peacefully and instantly. This may not always be the case. I can see a struggling animal causing a bad stick or missing a vein. I'm not sure yet what I think yet about not using a catheter. Having a catheter in means less restraint when the actual shot is given. Again depends on how the animal puts up with it. .....Cone collar? Geez, the last thing you want to do is stress out the animal and the owner. It's taken the human ALL they can scrape together emotionally to get to the vet for the euthaniasia anyway. .....None of the 4 euthanasias I've had to do over the years has gone wrong, for which I am profoundly greatful. buglady take out the dog before replying > If specifically requested by a dog owner, would you triple the > pentabarb dose to help insure effective euthanasia? I would have thought that the proceedure least likely to have the effects indicated here wouldn't be to triple the dosage of pentabarb. The OP didn't have a problem with insufficient drug being used. There was something very unusual about the drug. For me, the most effective method if the owner (or the vet) are concerned about complications would be to pre-tranq the animal with something (preferably something that *doesn't* have to hit the vein, maybe Dormitor that can go IM), and then the euthanasia solution can be administered without fear of undue stress should the final injection go awry. Dale I'm not here to tell folks their business. There are people in this forum with vastly more experience than I. But, in my insane dream, a vet perceived (through prescience or whatever) that a particular euthanasia might be difficult. After getting clearance from the owner, he administered a strong oral tranquilizer an hour or so before the event, then walked in with a catheter rig, something like 6 "lethal" doses of pentabarb, 2 of potassium. Started the IV/catheter (only one needle-stick), plugged in pentabarb until the poor critter was unconscious, gave one more pentabarb dose, then the potassium. If the dog didn't respond as expected, lots of extra doses on hand. Confirmed loss of respiration, heartbeat, etc, and the job was definitively done. I know this sounds like overkill, and it would be in many (but not necessarily all) circumstances. Just a thought. I >> If specifically requested by a dog owner, would you triple the >> pentabarb dose to help insure effective euthanasia? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Dale |
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