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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / January 2008Digestive Enzymes and Weight Gain?
As some of you already know, my 3 1/2 y.o. Lab has nasty arthritis in his elbow, and an injured cruciate. Needless to say, I'm trying to keep a very close eye on his weight. He was up about 2 lbs from what I'd like him to be at his last weigh in. His new food (Royal Canin Mobility support) is calorie restricted, so I figured if I continued to feed him the same amount (the bag actually recommends I feed him much more than I am), the weight should 'take care of itself. I was a little shocked today to find that since his last weigh in, not only has he not lost any weight, HE'S GAINED 3 POUNDS! His activity level has stayed comparable to what its always been. The only thing I can think of, is one of the supplements I'm giving him contains digestive enzymes along with everything else. Could this cause him to gain weight? (i.e. he may be taking in less calories, but he's using them more effectively now?) Any other thoughts? Dale > As some of you already know, my 3 1/2 y.o. Lab has nasty arthritis in his > elbow, and an injured cruciate.> > Any other thoughts? ..........have you ever had a thyroid panel run? buglady take out the dog before replying >> As some of you already know, my 3 1/2 y.o. Lab has nasty arthritis in his >> elbow, and an injured cruciate.> >> Any other thoughts? > > ..........have you ever had a thyroid panel run? No, but his coat is absolutely gorgeous (I'm forever getting comments about it). I would be very surprised if he had a thyroid issue on top of everything else. Dale > >> As some of you already know, my 3 1/2 y.o. Lab has nasty arthritis in his > >> elbow, and an injured cruciate.> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it). I would be very surprised if he had a thyroid issue on top of > everything else. ..........might be worth it though; cruciate ligament injuries can be a sign of thyroid problems, coupled with the weight gain......well, you never know. I consider this sort of test part of an investigative/learning process. buglady take out the dog before replying First, check the actual calorie content of current food vs old food. You can usually do that online at the company's website. Make sure you aren't actually feeding more calories. Second, make sure no one else is feeding him ;-). Cat food out of reach, other family members not feeling sorry for him, neighbors sneaking him treats across the fence....you get the idea. If no one else is feeding him, and if in fact you are feeding a lot less calories, then it may be that he's too calorie restricted. Rarely animals can go into "starvation mode" when you abruptly cut back on calories. Their body thinks they are being starved, so every calorie they get goes directly to fat. So you sometimes have to actually feed more. I'd also consider looking into thyroid just as a precaution. Deborah, DVM > As some of you already know, my 3 1/2 y.o. Lab has nasty arthritis in his > elbow, and an injured cruciate. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Dale > First, check the actual calorie content of current food vs old food. Stangely, only the pet store food he was on has the calorie count indicated on the company website (403kcal/cup). The veterinary diet he's on (Royal Canin Mobility Support) doesn't have it indicated (I would have thought that would be the other way around). I'm planning on calling them anyways, and getting them to fax me some more detailed information about what exactly the food contains. I'm sure that will have a calorie count on it, but given that its marketed as "Calorie Restricted", and the recommended feeding according to the bag is 6 cups/day (which I'm not giving him), I don't think he could possibly be getting more calories than he was before. (although the feeding guide they have in the clinic suggests closer to 4 1/2 cups/day... I was giving him 4 and a little tiny bit) > You can usually do that online at the company's website. Make sure you > aren't actually feeding more calories. Second, make sure no one else is > feeding him ;-). No one else will admit to it anyways :), except maybe my little nephew (18 months old), but he's not over often enough to make a difference. > Cat food out of reach, other family members not feeling sorry for him, > neighbors sneaking him treats across the fence....you get the idea. Nearest neighbour is 150+m away, and he's never outside alone anyways. You made me laugh with the bit about the cat food. I remember once about a year ago, I left him in the car with a 6 lbs bag of cat food. The bag was burried under a 4L jug of windshield washer fluid, my jacket, and goodness knows how many other things. Add to that that it was unopened, and required him squeezing through a space no more than about 8 inches wide, and down about 3 feet to reach it, and yet somehow when I can back to the car, he'd downed a good 2 lbs of cat food. Needless to say, we generally keep the cat's food well out of reach. > If no one else is feeding him, and if in fact you are feeding a lot less > calories, then it may be that he's too calorie restricted. Rarely animals > can go into "starvation mode" when you abruptly cut back on calories. > Their body thinks they are being starved, so every calorie they get goes > directly to fat. Erwin's been secretly e-mailing you hasn't he :). (You know he's a lab right? He's *always* in starvation mode if you ask him). > So you sometimes have to actually feed more. I'd also consider looking > into thyroid just as a precaution. > > Deborah, DVM I'll keep a close eye on his weight over the next couple of weeks. I've cut down his food a bit. I figure K.I.S.S. is probably the best approach at this stage. Chances are, his activity level has really changed more than I think it has (I really don't think it should have changed enough to have him gain a pound a week though, he still gets a walk every day, for a minimum of an hour each time, but hey who knows right?). If the weight continues to go in an unexpected direction, I'll suggest running a thyroid panel. Dale >> As some of you already know, my 3 1/2 y.o. Lab has nasty arthritis in his >> elbow, and an injured cruciate. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> Dale "Dale Atkin" <labrador1@ibycus.com> wrote in message: > food contains. I'm sure that will have a calorie count on it, but given that > its marketed as "Calorie Restricted", and the recommended feeding according > to the bag is 6 cups/day (which I'm not giving him), I don't think he could > possibly be getting more calories than he was before. I'm not sure if 'calorie restricted' is supposed to have any sort of strict definition. You'd think that it means lower calories, but lower calories than what? > (although the feeding > guide they have in the clinic suggests closer to 4 1/2 cups/day... I was > giving him 4 and a little tiny bit) That's A LOT of food. I do not normally feed by any recommendations on the bag, opting to go on the basis of look and feel. Just so you know, Khan (87 pounds at a good skinny weight) eats 1 1/3 cups of Solid Gold WolfKing (364 Kcal/cup), plus some fillers to make him feel full (cooked up veggies, mostly). He's hypothyroid and Cushingoid, both of which can contribute to weight issues, so if you can't resolve this by managing his diet, you may want to look into endocrine issues. Suja > "Dale Atkin" <labrador1@ibycus.com> wrote in message: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > definition. You'd think that it means lower calories, but lower calories > than what? One would assume less than their other foods. I managed to find some numbers last night on their mainstream foods, which average about between 325-->400 kcal/cup. >> (although the feeding >> guide they have in the clinic suggests closer to 4 1/2 cups/day... I was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the > bag, opting to go on the basis of look and feel. I know, he's always eaten more than any of his littermates (we chat sometimes on a web discussion board). That is however what has always been required for him to maintain his weight. He's a very muscular, quite active lab, ideal weight is probably about 75->77 pounds (I'm shooting for the low end due to joint issues). I tried feeding based on the bag once... he got to be a bit too skinny, so we upped him to what he'd always been getting. My rule as far as weight goes, is you should be able to feel the ribs (without digging) but not see them. Right now, you do have to dig a very small bit. I'm guessing if he were to loose about 5-7 pounds he should be about right. Dale He's hypothyroid and Cushingoid, .......well, when did that happen??? You finally got a diagnosis? Speak! buglady take out the dog before replying "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> wrote in message: > .......well, when did that happen??? You finally got a diagnosis? Speak! Didn't I post about it? I thought I had. Khan has been treated for hypothyroidism since 2006. Early last year, he broke a tooth, and in the pre-anesthetic work-up, the vet noticed the dilute urine, which led to the series of tests which led to the IM consult and ultrasound, which led to the Tennessee panel, and the verdict that he has Atypical Cushing's. He has been treated for it since about June of 2007. Huge improvements in coat condition, in that he's no longer balding, although the rat-tail is taking a long time to recover, and is nowhere near normal for him. As of his yearly physical in October, the urine specific gravity had gone from 1.015 to 1.023. He is no longer drinking/peeing excessively. Skin condition has improved, but not to either the vet's of my satisfaction, so we are not quite sure what to do yet, but another TN panel is probably in his future. I need to pick Dr. Oliver's (the UTenn endocrinologist) brain about it a bit to see if we need to explore other options for treatment. One interesting finding was that although his blood work-up was done fasting, and therefore without his morning thyroid meds, the two thyroid values came back in the middle of the range, which they usually aren't, even with meds (always low-normal, always), so it is possible he isn't really hypothyroid at all, and it was a function of the Cushing's. His regular vet is on maternity leave, so we'll probably not go back for some time, but the next time we're back, I'm having another full Thyroid panel done at MSU to see where his levels are, and see if we can take him off the thyroid meds. I was kinda hoping that if his urine is concentrating again, we can wean him off the Proin too, but the last attempt did not work at all. Suja > Didn't I post about it? I thought I had. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ultrasound, which led to the Tennessee panel, and the verdict that he has > Atypical Cushing's. He has been treated for it since about June of 2007. .......Nope, I don't think you did, unless I was asleep or dead. And thanks for the update. What the heck is atypical Cushings? A feedback problem? And what are they treating with, I'm assuming nothing so drastic as Lysodren? ......I'm glad you finally got an answer to this brain twister. > One interesting finding was that although his blood work-up was done > fasting, and therefore without his morning thyroid meds, the two thyroid > values came back in the middle of the range, which they usually aren't, even > with meds (always low-normal, always), so it is possible he isn't really > hypothyroid at all, and it was a function of the Cushing's. ........Interesting huh! There's that euthyroid sick again. Now you know what that means! buglady take out the dog before replying "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> wrote in message: > What the heck is atypical Cushings? It's similar to regular Cushing's, except instead of being mediated by cortisol, this is mediated by adrenocortical sex hormones and their precursors. The testing is similar to an ACTH stim test, except that in this case, in addition to measuring the cortisol levels, they also measure the levels of sex hormones. Of the top of my head, the ones measured are progesterone, estradiol, androstenedione, 17 OH progesterone and aldosterone. I thought the test measured 7 hormones, not 5, so I'm probably missing a couple. Khan had a single abnormal result on the panel, which neither our IM vet nor our regular vet had seen. His androstenedione was elevated both pre and post. Pre - 4.1 where 3.6 is high normal and Post - 62 where 29 is high normal. > A feedback problem? They don't really know, unfortunately. Something in the look/cascade has gone wrong, but we don't know what exactly. > And what are they treating with, I'm assuming nothing so drastic as > Lysodren? Current treatment protocol for normal Cushing's involves Lysodren or Trilostane, but the one for Atypical isn't nearly as drastic. He is on melatonin 3 mg. 2x a day and Flax Seed Oil with lignans 1 x a day. I'm changing the FSO to purified lignans (40 mg) 1x a day to see if it makes any difference. There is also the option of using a melatonin implant, but it normally lasts only 3 - 4 months, and I'm not sure if it is worthwhile. > ........Interesting huh! There's that euthyroid sick again. Now you know > what that means! Yup. I know a few others whose dogs seem to be responding similarly, so there appears to be a connection there for sure. Suja P.S. Sorry Dale, for the thread drift. > P.S. Sorry Dale, for the thread drift. ........aw, he's a vet student.......ALL is gravy! Thanks again! buglady take out the dog before replying > First, check the actual calorie content of current food vs old food. You > can usually do that online at the company's website. Make sure you aren't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Deborah, DVM Would mucussy vomit fit with any of these theories? There was plenty of food in there too, (although it was a little more digested than I would have expected given the time since he'd eaten) Thoughts? Dale |
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