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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / March 2008Allergies
11 year old Brittany. Generally very active and healthy except for skin allergies. She is extremely itchy from about April thru October. Licking and biting, mostly on/near the paws. By Aug. of every year she looks a hulluva mess. The vet and I have been over the issue for years. Nothing has seemed to help. She gets prednisone every summer. It wasn't very helpful last season. I have heard that a grain-free diet has helped with some dogs. I fed her Eukanuba for years. She's now getting Canidae All-Life-Stage, G/C, salmon oil, Missing Link. Given that the allergies don't much bother her Nov.-March, is there any rational expectation that a g-f diet might help? I have also heard that the Ultimate Allergy Screen SPOT panel from Spectrum Labs (www.vetallergy.com/pages/testingpanels.html) can be very helpful in identifying allergic substances. Such tests are run from blood samples only. It might help a great deal if I could learn what substances are causing the problems. Of course, if they're all inhalants, I'm out of luck. When I ask my vet (who uses VARL tests), he tells me: a.) It is not possible to test blood for food allergies. b.) A grain-free diet will not help. He does sell special and very expensive diet stuff, likely Hills e/z or somesuch. He fairly berated me for asking about stuff I'd heard about on net discussion groups (wasting his time). Does anyone have any experience with blood testing for allergies? The Spectrum Spot tests? Should I think about finding a new vet? Thanks, Peetie Peetie Wheatstraw <peetie.wheatstraw@gmail.com> said in rec.pets.dogs.health: > Should I think about finding a new vet? I can't address the allergy/grain thing, but I went through a similar thing with Rocky's vet after Rocky's epilepsy onset. He told me not to believe anything from the web (his term, not mine). I told him that I wasn't stupid and could tell credible information from not, especially after filtering tons of reading with a pretty well honed bullshit detector. (Maybe not those exact words.) Anyway, I was passing everything by him, so what was the problem? It didn't take long for Rocky's vet to come around, and we have a really good relationship. If your vet is not willing to make diagnosis and treatment a two way discussion, then I'd look for another. First, though, I'd make my expectations clear.  Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > If your vet is not willing to make diagnosis and treatment a two > way discussion, then I'd look for another. First, though, I'd > make my expectations clear. This is such good advice that I wanted to see it again. Our vet also had a problem with getting suggestions "from the web" but softened when I asked him what the difference was between the Merck Veterinary Manual on the web and the one he had in his office. Since that time and over time, he has been tremendously open to discussion. We also had to step up our level of communication and that included providing better, more specific observations if possible. > She is extremely itchy from about April thru October Nothing has seemed to help. She gets prednisone every summer. It wasn't very helpful > last season. .........Does your dog stay in the house or is it an outside dog? Where does she itch - everywhere or does she bite paws? Have you tried wiping with a damp cloth before bringing inside or frequent plain water rinses? Tried Benedryl? > I have heard that a grain-free diet has helped with some dogs. ......I don't see how this can be food allergy if it's limited to season. > I have also heard that the Ultimate Allergy Screen SPOT panel from > Spectrum Labs (www.vetallergy.com/pages/testingpanels.html) can > be very helpful in identifying allergic substances. Such tests > are run from blood samples only. It might help a great deal if > I could learn what substances are causing the problems. Of course, > if they're all inhalants, I'm out of luck. ........Don't know if they really work. And as you said, how can it help if they're inhalants? What kind of pollen is there from April to October? These are often listed on weather channels. buglady take out the dog before replying >> She is extremely itchy from about April thru October >Nothing has seemed to help. She gets prednisone every summer. It wasn't >very helpful >> last season. > >.........Does your dog stay in the house or is it an outside dog? We are in a dense urban area. Mostly inside with trips to fenced yard. I walk her up to 2 mi. a day in good weather. >Where >does she itch - everywhere or does she bite paws? Mostly on/around paws. Some on her breast in July-Sept. She wipes her schnoz on the rug fairly often. >Have you tried wiping >with a damp cloth before bringing inside or frequent plain water rinses? Yes. Didn't much seem to help. >Tried Benedryl? Tried numerous decongestants. >> I have heard that a grain-free diet has helped with some dogs. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >they're inhalants? What kind of pollen is there from April to October? >These are often listed on weather channels. See http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1587&articleid=2735 If she is allergic to numerous substances and I can ID most/all, I might be able to relieve some of her suffering. Hopefully worth a try. Thx, Peetie > See http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1587&articleid=2735 > > If she is allergic to numerous substances and I can ID most/all, I might > be able to relieve some of her suffering. Hopefully worth a try. ........Interesting article, not seen that one before. I was thinking that it could be that your dog is highly sensitized and grains could be exacerbating the issue, but didn't know if there was any backup for that thinking. In any case, it certainly won't hurt your dog to go grain free. There are some foods on the market, while having carbs, are grain free that you might try to see if it makes any difference. I'd aim for a food with the least amount of ingredients......or make your own. In any case you won't get to see if it works until next allergy season probably. If food is part of the issue, I'd make sure the dog gets probiotics for a couple of months plus L-glutamine to see if that helps any food sensitivity issue. I honestly don't know about the tests. Some people seem to have had some luck with them, others don't believe they work. buglady take out the dog before replying >> See http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1587&articleid=2735 >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >exacerbating the issue, but didn't know if there was any backup for that >thinking. It seems intuitive (to me). There are so many allergens: she could be reacting to 4 or 6 or ?. Of course, most/all could be inhalant. >In any case, it certainly won't hurt your dog to go grain free. >There are some foods on the market, while having carbs, are grain free that >you might try to see if it makes any difference. I'd aim for a food with >the least amount of ingredients......or make your own. In any case you >won't get to see if it works until next allergy season probably. I guess I'll start it in June ... >If food is >part of the issue, I'd make sure the dog gets probiotics for a couple of >months plus L-glutamine to see if that helps any food sensitivity issue. > >I honestly don't know about the tests. Some people seem to have had some >luck with them, others don't believe they work. Cutting-edge technology, I'd wager. Nobody's responded with info on the Spectrum Spot tests, so it's not likely in wide usage. I'll have to pass on that unless I can find a vet recommending/using them. Thanks, Peetie >>I honestly don't know about the tests. Some people seem to have had some >>luck with them, others don't believe they work. > > Cutting-edge technology, I'd wager. Nobody's responded with info on > the Spectrum Spot tests, so it's not likely in wide usage. I'll have > to pass on that unless I can find a vet recommending/using them. Not sure why you'd have to pass on them. If you're interested, you should do it, regardless of what your vet thinks about it. Tell him you'd like to try, and see what they come up with (get them to draw/prepare the blood for you). Dale >>>I honestly don't know about the tests. Some people seem to have had some >>>luck with them, others don't believe they work. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >it, regardless of what your vet thinks about it. Tell him you'd like to try, >and see what they come up with (get them to draw/prepare the blood for you). He does busines with VARL allergy tests. If he can't price Spectrum, I can't hire him to test with Spectrum. I don't even know if Spectrum would run tests for a non-vet (myself). Kinda doubt it. Peetie > He does busines with VARL allergy tests. If he can't price Spectrum, I > can't hire him to test with Spectrum. I don't even know if Spectrum > would run tests for a non-vet (myself). Kinda doubt it. > > Peetie No harm in asking. I can understand why he wouldn't want to bother dealing with a new company though. What I might try (if I were interested in the test) is talking to Spectrum, and see if they will do it for you, and send the results to your vet, and talk to your vet and ask if he'll draw and prepare the sample for you. (Just make sure you have specific instructions on how they want the sample prepared/stored). If he won't do that for you, then I'd be looking for a new vet. Even if he thinks the test is a waste of money, its your money to waste. Dale > I guess I'll start it in June ... .......It takes a few week for nutrition to make a difference, I'd start earlier and see if you can skip the *itch season* entirely! buglady take out the dog before replying > > I guess I'll start it in June ... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > buglady > take out the dog before replying If it is mostly paw irritation.. do you treat your yard in the summer months with anything? My miniature poodle has had testing for environmental allergies. The dermatologist said the ones for food are not reliable. He is allergic to most grasses and blooming trees. Spring is pretty bad for him. He is on allergy shots every 5-7 days..it does help but it takes a few months before you notice that it is helping. The food that helps the most is hills venison and potato. He has been on z/d. Dexter is 15.5 now. The derm did recommend wiping his feet with baby wipes after every time he came in... any place that touched grass.. snout etc. It is hard because he is also a grazer...loves grass! we had a mini drought this summer and that was the best he had been in years. Do you have a teaching hospital near you? i would see a specialist good luck... I know what you are going thru! >> > I guess I'll start it in June ... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >If it is mostly paw irritation.. do you treat your yard in the summer >months with anything? No. We are in a dense urban area. Yard is small with grass and some flowers. For some reason rabbits love to roost and defecate at night: yard is full of droppings. I have to run the rabbits off before letting the dog out, so she doesn't chomp a snoozing hare. >My miniature poodle has had testing for >environmental allergies. The dermatologist said the ones for food are >not reliable. Interesting. >He is allergic to most grasses and blooming trees. >Spring is pretty bad for him. Sorry to hear, but glad you mentioned it. Mine is not so bad in spring but really a mess by July and Aug. Maybe inhalants are not 99% of the problem. Seems to build as the season progresses. >He is on allergy shots every 5-7 >days..it does help but it takes a few months before you notice that it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Do you have a teaching hospital near you? Not to my knowledge. >i would see a specialist I may have to before it's all over. >good luck... I know what you are going thru! Thanks. Glad to hear you have it under control. Peetie >> I guess I'll start it in June ... > >.......It takes a few week for nutrition to make a difference, I'd start >earlier and see if you can skip the *itch season* entirely! That was my original intention, but I'd hoped to get some direction about what to feed from the blood tests. Would you start with a non-allergic diet? Grain-free diet? Something other? Thx, Peetie > >.......It takes a few week for nutrition to make a difference, I'd start > >earlier and see if you can skip the *itch season* entirely! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Would you start with a non-allergic diet? Grain-free diet? > Something other? ..........Don't know what to tell you. If food is irritating the system theoretically it could be anything, from a specific protein, dyes, additives to grains. My personal take would be to dump grains and make sure the GI tract is in tiptop shape. I'd run a stool test just to be sure there's no parasites. If you have the inclination it might be a great idea to prepare the food yourself, so you know exactly what's going into it. Has this dog been on courses of antibiotics thru the years? What does he eat now? And is it a food he's been on for a long time? Are there any other skin things going on at other times of the year, like dryness or flakes? Is he hypersensitive to fleas and does the peak flea season coincide with the itching? How are the stools? buglady take out the dog before replying >> Would you start with a non-allergic diet? Grain-free diet? >> Something other? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >parasites. If you have the inclination it might be a great idea to prepare >the food yourself, so you know exactly what's going into it. That's a last resort. >Has this dog >been on courses of antibiotics thru the years? No. She has been mostly healthy. >What does he eat now? >And is it a food he's been on for a long time? I fed her Eukanuba for years. She's now getting Canidae All-Life- Stage, G/C, salmon oil, Missing Link (since about June, '07). >Are there any other skin things >going on at other times of the year, like dryness or flakes? Not in previous years. This year she had black (elephant?) skin inside her hind legs. I treated with Eucerin, seems to be going away. >Is he >hypersensitive to fleas and does the peak flea season coincide with the >itching? It's close to coinciding. Fleas are worst in Sept. But I watch like a hawk for fleas, especially in Sept. Turn her upside down, give a tummy-rub, brush teeth, inspect pooch. I find evidence of fleas maybe once a season and treat immediately. >How are the stools? Firm and dark-brown. Peetie > Given that the allergies don't much bother her Nov.-March, is there > any rational expectation that a g-f diet might help? There might be some. I know one of my guy's brothers has some seasonal itchiness. Tended to go bald on his flank when ever he shed his coat. Eventually the owner found a food that worked for him. I believe it was a product called "Wellness" that had 5 ingredients in it (total). I wouldn't automatically pin it to grains though. Could be just about anything. > I have also heard that the Ultimate Allergy Screen SPOT panel from > Spectrum Labs (www.vetallergy.com/pages/testingpanels.html) can [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > a.) It is not possible to test blood for food allergies. How did you approach him? What exactly did you ask? There are a lot of people out there who will believe everything they read (far, far more than will actually critically evaluate what they read). My own approach would be "Some recommended this to me: I think it looks interesting. What do you think?" Come with a few print outs etc (particularly the technical looking ones) > b.) A grain-free diet will not help. Unless you try it, you can't know for sure. He could strongly suspect a grain free diet won't help, but there is always the potential that it will. > He does sell special and very expensive diet stuff, likely Hills e/z > or somesuch. z/d? Could help. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Don't know how expensive that food is typically, but you can get a number of hypo-allergenic foods at pet specialty stores, which may be a bit cheaper. > He fairly berated me for asking about stuff I'd heard > about on net discussion groups (wasting his time). You have to be a little careful about how you approach them. Some of them are a little sensitive. There is a lot of crappy information out there on the net, especially where diet is concerned, and I'm afraid some of them get a little 'nostalgic' for the pre-net days (he shouldn't have gotten upset with you, but looking at it from his perspective might help you understand his reaction). If you're going to come with information garnered from the net, make sure that you've critically looked at the information*, and made your own judgements, but also be ready to at least listen to his concerns about it. Remember, he went to school for quite a few years to get where he is, and very likely has quite a lot more experience in this field than you do, so his opinion is likely worth listening to. Its not that I'm saying vets are all knowing. They aren't, by any stretch of the imagination, its just that most of them know a whole lot more about this kind of thing than a lot of the pages you see on the net. > Does anyone have any experience with blood testing for allergies? > The Spectrum Spot tests? > > Should I think about finding a new vet? Do you trust his opinion? Do you trust him to recommend what he thinks is best for your animals? If yes, then stick with him. If know, then I'd go looking elsewhere. Dale * Things to think about when critically evaluating a source on the web: What kind of evidence do they have for their claims? Anecdotal? Controlled study? Most anecdotal evidence isn't worth the bits its transmitted on. Frankly, you can find an animal that responds in the way you are expecting to just about anything. If they are doing research, what kind of controls do they have on their data? What could interfere with their results? Are the controls appropriate? Do the authors of the study have any vested interest in getting certain results? (are they 'trying to show something' or are they investigating something) How is the evidence presented? Is the solution presented as a cure all? Or are there some reservations about the treatment? Someone who tells you that a grain free diet is going to solve all the world's allergy problems is, probably isn't to be believed. Someone on the other hand who tells you that in about x% of cases, we've noted that allegies will resolve with a grain free diet is maybe more credible. >> Given that the allergies don't much bother her Nov.-March, is there >> any rational expectation that a g-f diet might help? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >people out there who will believe everything they read (far, far more than >will actually critically evaluate what they read). I called and asked if I could stop by, wait until he could spare a few minutes. They nixed that and I left my phone #. It was over the phone. >My own approach would be "Some recommended this to me: I think it looks >interesting. What do you think?" Pretty much what I tried on the phone. ... >> Should I think about finding a new vet? > >Do you trust his opinion? Do you trust him to recommend what he thinks is >best for your animals? If yes, then stick with him. If know, then I'd go >looking elsewhere. He's rendered good care and advice in most instances. But not all. He recommends annual DHLPP, which I'll likely refuse this year unless it can be justified. Had it last year. He did give me a price break when I brought a foster to him. Points in his favor. ... Re info on the "net": there was a lot less BS back in the Bitnet days. :-) Thanks, Peetie > He recommends annual DHLPP, which I'll likely refuse this year > unless it can be justified. Had it last year. .........What month did these vax happen last year? buglady take out the dog before replying >> He recommends annual DHLPP, which I'll likely refuse this year >> unless it can be justified. Had it last year. > >.........What month did these vax happen last year? Mid-June. A Lepto, a DHPP, and a 3-yr rabies. She was already itchy, but the vax could have exascerbated the problem, which was worst about 4-8 weeks later. To my knowledge she needs -no- vax this season. Peetie > Mid-June. A Lepto, a DHPP, and a 3-yr rabies. ..........Lepto is the one that causes the most problems for dogs, particularly when it's given with the rest. I would vax this dog with the least amount of vax and not do them all on the same day. buglady take out the dog before replying >> Mid-June. A Lepto, a DHPP, and a 3-yr rabies. > >..........Lepto is the one that causes the most problems for dogs, >particularly when it's given with the rest. I would vax this dog with the >least amount of vax and not do them all on the same day. I concur. She's now 11 and expected to live to about 13. Superflous vax are not in the cards. I'm thinking it likely that no additional vax will be medically indicated in her remaining lifetime. Thanks, Peetie > Given that the allergies don't much bother her Nov.-March, is there > any rational expectation that a g-f diet might help? > Some dogs have food allergies AND atopy (allergies to inhaled things). If your dog is truly only affected in the spring and summer, I wouldn't spend too much time on food allergies. If she were bothered year-round with flare-ups in the spring and summer, then there's a chance she'd improve overall with if her food allergy were controlled. > When I ask my vet (who uses VARL tests), he tells me: > > a.) It is not possible to test blood for food allergies. > b.) A grain-free diet will not help. > As for a), I don't tell clients it's not possible, but that it's not worth the money. They've been shown in several studies to not correlate with the clinical situation. You can do it, but there are better ways to spend your money to treat your pup. As for b), I'd agree that there's a slim chance a grain-free diet will help your dog. I won't say it won't help, but based one your description, I'd guess food allergies are not your dog's issue. There's nothing wrong with trying, but it'll take up to 3 months on a hypoallergenic diet to determine if it's doing any good. That'll put you into spring and odds are you'll have an itchy dog. If not, great, you've fixed her! > Does anyone have any experience with blood testing for allergies? > The Spectrum Spot tests? > I don't know anything about the Spectrum Spot tests. I use Heska Allercept testing for my cases. As I mentioned earlier, there are blood tests for food allergies, but it's generally useless information that won't help you figure out what to do for your pet. One thing to consider if you're thinking about doing the blood tests for atopy now is that you may get more false negatives because it's been 4 months since her exposure to some of her allergens. I'm not saying don't do it, but you'll likely get more reliable information if you run the test after her allergy season is finished, like this December. That means you will deal with allergies this spring, but there are many things you can do to help control her itching (weekly baths, antihistamines, omega-3 fatty acids, minimal steroids if needed, etc.). Allergies are a difficult, frustrating problem, but with the right veterinarian, good communication and trust, it's a condition that can be controlled. Good luck, Sandy, DVM >> Given that the allergies don't much bother her Nov.-March, is there >> any rational expectation that a g-f diet might help? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >with flare-ups in the spring and summer, then there's a chance she'd >improve overall with if her food allergy were controlled. She is now within about a month of her least-itchy time of year, and she still licks (and bites a tiny bit) her paws, mostly in the evening. Because there's no hair loss or red, irritated skin, I used to assume it was trivial. Maybe nervous habit. Now I'm not so sure. >> When I ask my vet (who uses VARL tests), he tells me: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >into spring and odds are you'll have an itchy dog. If not, great, you've >fixed her! Won't hurt much to try. >> Does anyone have any experience with blood testing for allergies? >> The Spectrum Spot tests? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >help control her itching (weekly baths, antihistamines, omega-3 fatty >acids, minimal steroids if needed, etc.). Thanks. It appears Spectrum in not in wide use, possibly for good reason. >Allergies are a difficult, frustrating problem, but with the right >veterinarian, good communication and trust, it's a condition that can be >controlled. That's all I rationally expect: a certain degree of control. Thanks, Peetie I'll chime in here to second Sandy. Unless your problems are year round, it's unlikely to be food allergies. That being said, it wouldn't be that uncommon to have multiple allergies. When it comes to allergies I describe it to clients as being a threshhold effect -- you can be allergic to 6 things and if you are only exposed to 3 of them you don't have signs, but when you throw in that 4th item you see symptoms. So theoretically you could have very mild food allergies, and not have clinical signs until your dog is exposed to inhalant allergens in the spring/summer. In which case a hypoallergenic diet would help. I'm not sure about "grain free" -- while some grains can cause allergies it's frequently the proteins which cause the most problems. I think if you're going to try to rule out diet, you need to do a true hypoallergenic diet, be it home cooked or prescription. With regards to serum allergy tests, I'm also not familiar with spectrum. I use VARL. I think most all specialists agree that serum testing for food allergies isn't reliable. I think if you get a positive it is likely a true positive, but a negative means nothing. I have an allergic dog, and ran the full VARL test on her, including food. What it did tell me was that she was off the charts a reactor to fish, and sure enough, when I stopped all those lovely fish oil/fatty acid supplements she improved ;-). I tried desensitization and didn't have much luck, and wound up taking her to see the dermatologist this past summer. He did skin testing and had me repeat the serum testing. I'd say about 50% of the things she reacted to correlated, but there were definitely differing results. This particular dermatologist frequently dose both serum and intradermal testing to get the best results. We're currently going through another course of desensitization (with only slightly more success, unfortunately). I'd consider allergy testing a waste of your money unless you are looking to try desensitization. It's pretty unusual to come up with results that will allow you to avoid the allergen (although I did have one dog who reacted tremendously to sheep's wool, and sure enough, when they got rid of his bed his skin cleared up!!!). Anyway, good luck with your dog. Deborah, DVM >I'll chime in here to second Sandy. Unless your problems are year round, >it's unlikely to be food allergies. That being said, it wouldn't be that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >could have very mild food allergies, and not have clinical signs until your >dog is exposed to inhalant allergens in the spring/summer. This is consistent with my current view. >In which case a >hypoallergenic diet would help. I'm not sure about "grain free" -- while >some grains can cause allergies it's frequently the proteins which cause the >most problems. I think if you're going to try to rule out diet, you need to >do a true hypoallergenic diet, be it home cooked or prescription. I will likely have to design one-or-more test diets for her before it's all over (testing, etc). Unless I'm extremely lucky. >With regards to serum allergy tests, I'm also not familiar with spectrum. I >use VARL. I think most all specialists agree that serum testing for food [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >off the charts a reactor to fish, and sure enough, when I stopped all those >lovely fish oil/fatty acid supplements she improved ;-). Something worked! Do you have any notion what the ballpark (retail) cost of the VARL tests would have amounted to? >I tried >desensitization and didn't have much luck, and wound up taking her to see [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >tremendously to sheep's wool, and sure enough, when they got rid of his bed >his skin cleared up!!!). I'm not looking for a 'miracle cure', just anything that might materially help, reduce suffering. She is a "Precious, Precious Pooch". >Anyway, good luck with your dog. Thanks for your help. Peetie |
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