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Pet Forum / Miscellaneous / Animal Health / January 2004Dog having seizures - what to do?
Our 10 year old GSD, Dylan, began having seizures last week - at least that's the first we'd seen one. They are very brief, lasting just a few seconds, with no warning that we noticed. She stiffens and falls on her side, arches her back, and then "paddles" a bit. Right afterwards, she gets up and seems normal. She's had eight seizures in the last nine days that we've witnessed. She has no problems with her heart, and was inactive when these seizures occurred. Her vet ordered blood tests, which came back normal. She checked with Pfizer to see if seizures had been reported for dogs on Deramaxx - a few have, but not enough to be clear that Deramaxx is responsible. Dylan is taking Deramaxx for two reasons - hip dysplasia (helps tremendously here) and as an anticancer agent. She was treated for squamous cell carcinoma and has had no symptoms of recurrence for the past year. She's really beat the odds by surviving two years after discovery; she has had surgery, radiation and chemo to treat it. We saw a neurologist today, who suggested, but did not push, an MRI, and prescribed phenobarbital. We're thinking about the MRI, taking into consideration Dylan's age, cancer history, what we would do if it did turn out to be a tumor causing the seizures, and sad to say, expense (we are currently unemployed). And we love this dog dearly. I'm looking for your thoughts, experiences, further questions to ask, alternatives, and recommendations. I'd appreciate any input. Thanks - FurPaw  SignatureBrain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. To reply, unleash the dog. > I'm looking for your thoughts, experiences, further questions to ask, > alternatives, and recommendations. I'd appreciate any input. So sorry to hear about Dylan. I'm afraid I don't have anything useful to contribute other than to hope that Matt will be along shortly to answer some of your questions. In the meantime, you might want to check out his 'Links' (http://www.rocky-dog.com/Links/LinksMenu.html) page for a nice collection of Canine Epilepsy links. Suja >> I'm looking for your thoughts, experiences, further questions to ask, >> alternatives, and recommendations. I'd appreciate any input. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > out his 'Links' (http://www.rocky-dog.com/Links/LinksMenu.html) page for > a nice collection of Canine Epilepsy links. Thanks, Suja - The links menu was very helpful! FurPaw SignatureBrain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. To reply, unleash the dog. FurPaw said in rec.pets.dogs.health: > We saw a neurologist today, who suggested, but did not > push, an MRI, and prescribed phenobarbital. We're thinking > about the MRI, taking into consideration Dylan's age, > cancer history, what we would do if it did turn out to be a > tumor causing the seizures, and sad to say, expense (we are > currently unemployed). I think that you're taking the right approach. At Dylan's age, his seizures are most likely physiological. You've done blood tests - before an expensive MRI, I'd ask your vet for a thyroid check and (less likely) look for an infection like encephalitis. Meanwhile, I'm glad that your vet has prescribed Phenobarbital. In my opinion, the most important thing is to stop the seizures and then look for an underlying cause. Eight seizures in nine days is a lot, though. If you can't get this under control quickly, ask your vet about a drug regimen which combines Phenobarbital and Potassium Bromide (KBr). The latter works well with frequent seizures like Dylan's. Good luck and please report back. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > FurPaw said in rec.pets.dogs.health: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > which combines Phenobarbital and Potassium Bromide (KBr). The > latter works well with frequent seizures like Dylan's. Thanks, Matt - We've decided against doing the MRI, at least for now. The phenobarbital seems to be helping; we haven't _seen_ a seizure for four days now and we've been keeping her indoors so that we can keep a better eye on her, to her intense displeasure (But Mom, it SNOWED!) She's been having a problem walking for the past couple of days - seems weak in her hindquarters, and it hasn't improved much. So we will be taking her to the vet tomorrow to see what's up with that. FurPaw SignatureBrain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. To reply, unleash the dog. FurPaw said in rec.pets.dogs.health: > She's been having a problem walking for the past couple of > days - seems weak in her hindquarters, and it hasn't > improved much. So we will be taking her to the vet tomorrow > to see what's up with that. That's ataxia. It can take weeks or months for the dog to get used to the drugs - some dogs never do. As well, some dogs suffer less ataxia from KBr vs. PB, other dogs have the reverse problem. I pulled Rocky out of agility for 6 months while he got used to the drugs even though he didn't exhibit much ataxia. The only time he has rear end weakness is in severely cold weather (like now at -30F). Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > FurPaw said in rec.pets.dogs.health: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > time he has rear end weakness is in severely cold weather (like > now at -30F). Thanks for the quick response on this! I'll call the neurologist and see if she thinks a switch to KBr is in order, or if we should wait it out for a bit. FurPaw SignatureBrain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. To reply, unleash the dog. FurPaw said in rec.pets.dogs.health: > I'll call the neurologist and see > if she thinks a switch to KBr is in order, or if we should > wait it out for a bit. KBr usually works best when it's used in conjunction with PB. It's got a very long half life (24 days IIRC) and takes weeks to build up to therapeutic levels so PB can't just be stopped. Using both drugs, Rocky's on a low level of each, which is probably one reason he doesn't show much ataxia. Signature--Matt. Rocky's a Dog. > FurPaw said in rec.pets.dogs.health: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. Wow thanks Matt. I never heard of ataxia. I have never mentioned to my neurologist about my lack of coordination and severe clumsiness. I have been taking PB so long I guess I just thought I have always been this way. Makes sense and it is why I don't do very well myself in Agility. I can fall at the drop of a pin. One dog crossing in front of me the wrong way and I am splat on my face. It doesn't make for much fun when everyone is laughing at you. And since I didn't ever have a word for the condition and I wasn't even aware of it. Well thanks bunches. Gwen > Her vet ordered blood tests, which came back normal. She checked with > Pfizer to see if seizures had been reported for dogs on Deramaxx - a few > have, but not enough to be clear that Deramaxx is responsible. That means little. These pharmaceutical companies are not interested in such stories and in fact don't always keep accurate books. Just did a quick search and found many stories of seizures from this drug with many pet companions. Then I took a look at the science behind his drug which is near identical to Celebrex. Both are aspirin equivalents minus the acidic side of regular aspirin. Found some 41 studies involving dogs and this drug. None concerned safety so that means whatever the drug company says about it means little because no one bothered to really test it for problems in dogs. i did find a few studies that actually showed aspirin had a greater overall effect with dogs than this aspirin derivative. I also found that only one study addressed cancer and that was specifically a type of tumor found in the digestive system so to say this stuff works for cancer is incorrect. There simply is no research that shows this. The rock and the hard place here is that your dog is in it's twilight of life so the question is what should you do, treat the dog and spend money for treatment that will probably do little to noting to lengthen its life, or stay the course. It is an assumption to say that the drug is not causing the seizures. kind of like me saying that right now you are probably not wearing glasses. i can not say this even if a few folks that have known you tell me they never saw you wear glasses in the house. if this was my dog, I would probably try to find something for a few months as a replacement for the drug and see what happens with the seizures. Your vet is prescribing Phenobarbital because that is standard fair for seizures in dogs. But look at it this way, if your pipe under your sink starts to leak, do you wrap it in tape to stop it? You need to find the cause. Phenobarbital is a crutch. It allows you to walk but the leg is still broken. Forget the MRI, because if it is something such as a tumor in the brain, there is little the money you don't have to spend is going to do anyway. Start with the drug. It has caused a number of seizures in pets that take it. The only way to figure this out is to take the dog of the drug for a while. Rimadyl is probably not my next option although your vet may think so. Note: Rimadyl kills more dogs a year than ten drugs combined. So the rock and the hard place is what to do, nothing, stop the drug for a while, or spend lots of money you don't have to do something that will tell you about something that treatment will do little to fix in a dog of your age. I know I did not give you an answer, only some thoughts, but I hope it helps a little. Key points, band aids don't repair only cover and don't rule out the drug. Only one way to know if it is the drug. Also, did you change the dogs diet recently including simply a different flavor of the same dog food? Note: Rimadyl kills more dogs a year than ten drugs combined. what are these deaths attributed to? > Note: > Rimadyl kills more dogs a year than ten drugs combined. > > what are these deaths attributed to? Actually, I think it's safer to say that pentobarbitol kills more dogs each year than any ten other drugs combined. > Actually, I think it's safer to say that pentobarbitol kills more dogs each > year than any ten other drugs combined. How about both kill more dogs than anything should? > And just in case some are wondering what there is that works just as > well here is a short list that by themselves or in combination do the > same thing as Rimadyl minus the adverse effects and death: Cosequin, > Adequan, Yucca, Glycoflex, MSM, and S.O.D. >My dog can't take many of these. And why is that? >> And just in case some are wondering what there is that works just as >> well here is a short list that by themselves or in combination do the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > And why is that? Because he is allergic.. or some medical conditions contrra-indicate these. > > Actually, I think it's safer to say that pentobarbitol kills more dogs each > > year than any ten other drugs combined. > > How about both kill more dogs than anything should? Nope. Sorry. Although way more pento gets used to euthenize healthy animals in shelters than I'd like, it's a great option to offer our friends relief at the end of thier lives. And Carprofen is a very good antiinflamatory with a low instance of side effects.. For every one crackpot who rales against it on usenet, there's hundreds of dogs who are given a better quality of life through its use. > How about both kill more dogs than anything should? >Nope. Sorry. Although way more pento gets used to euthenize healthy >animals in shelters than I'd like, it's a great option to offer our friends >relief at the end of thier lives. And Carprofen is a very good >antiinflamatory with a low instance of side effects.. For every one >crackpot who rales against it on usenet, there's hundreds of dogs who are >given a better quality of life through its use. Sorry Josh we are talking about two separate things. I am talking about adverse reactions to allopathic medicine and you are generalizing about drugs in general. While I am sure some dogs can tolerate these medications, the FDA has over a thousand reports of adverse reactions to Carprofen alone. In human terms about 10% of all adverse reactions to medications are actually reported. I am sure in animal terms, that number is far less. There are many natural methods of dealing with these symptoms that do not have the same adverse reactions. >If you talk to most vets and vet students, I think you'll find we do know >that these are out there, and we integrate them into our long-term pain >management options. However, they aren't always sufficient when the the >pain gets too bad, which makes sense as these neutraceuticals try to head >off inflammation rather than treat it. I personally think Cosequin is great >for dogs that it works for, which IME is maybe half. True, the system is influenced heavily by the pharmaceutical industry hence only pharmaceuticals are part of the curriculum, but many vets are breaking away from this methodology and looking into more natural treatments. Rymadyl has proven to be a serious problem for many that take it. So much so that websites have been created to help folks with information not given by vets and to help folks who do have problems to report them to the FDA such as http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/rimadylfr.html. In the end my success with animals comes from proacting and not reacting. i hope that more and more people start to think this way. That can only come from knowledge. Instead of mearly beleiving everything they are told they need ot look into it for themselves. It isn't difficult to do and in the end offers them a more educated way of making difficult decisions. > True, the system is influenced heavily by the pharmaceutical industry > hence only pharmaceuticals are part of the curriculum, Sorry, not true at all. Although we don't cover them in the traditional "pharmacalogical" sense that we go over other drugs (which have years of use and laboratory data, hence having something to discuss), I can think of three classes in which we have had in-depth discussions of neutraceuticals (pharmacology, surgery, and PE Skills if memory serves). Just because Pfizer buys me lunch every once in a while doesn't mean I'm slavish to thier products, nor are my professors. In fact, my surgery exam required me to list five post-surgical, non-pharmaceutical options for a dog with osteoarthritis who ruptured his ACL. > Sorry, not true at all. Although we don't cover them in the traditional > "pharmacalogical" sense that we go over other drugs (which have years of use [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > list five post-surgical, non-pharmaceutical options for a dog with > osteoarthritis who ruptured his ACL. This is good to hear Josh. Things seem to have changed since my days in school. What college are you attending? > This is good to hear Josh. Things seem to have changed since my days > in school. What college are you attending? NCSU > > This is good to hear Josh. Things seem to have changed since my days > > in school. What college are you attending? > > NCSU Really?? Cool, I didn't know that (I don't remember knowing that, any way ;-)). It's my alma mater :-). Deborah, DVM > Really?? Cool, I didn't know that (I don't remember knowing that, any way > ;-)). It's my alma mater :-). > > Deborah, DVM I think we've had this conversation before, but it was a while back, so I'm not surprised you don't remember. I am a bit curious though- What year did you graduate? It'd be nice to use the composites to put a face to a name. Josh > > Really?? Cool, I didn't know that (I don't remember knowing that, any way > > ;-)). It's my alma mater :-). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Josh The mind starts going as you age.....at least when it comes to things like that :-). I graduated in 96, although I look a bit different now than I did then! (that aging process again, I guess ;-)). There was another Deborah in my class, though, so you'll have to guess which one was me!!!!!! (here's a hint....I came first alphabetically) Deborah, DVM It's absolutely ridiculous to state something like this. Yes Rimadyl does have bad side effects for some dogs but not all have these reactions. For many dogs it's a life saver because without Rimadyl it means a life of pain or being put down. It's sad that no drug can 100% of the time react the way it should but it's a fact of life. It's more right to say that society itself kills more dogs than any other drug around due to the fact many are irresponsible and let them breed uncontrollably and they end up strays dieing on the streets or in shelters. Celeste > Note: > Rimadyl kills more dogs a year than ten drugs combined. > > what are these deaths attributed to? > For > many dogs it's a life saver because without Rimadyl it means a life of pain > or being put down. The sad part is that too many folks do not realize that there are many natural alternatives to this drug that have zero side efffects. We live in a society that belives allopathic medicine is dogma and hence we are limited only by it's limitations. And just in case some are wondering what there is that works just as well here is a short list that by themselves or in combination do the same thing as Rimadyl minus the adverse effects and death: Cosequin, Adequan, Yucca, Glycoflex, MSM, and S.O.D. > And just in case some are wondering what there is that works just as > well here is a short list that by themselves or in combination do the > same thing as Rimadyl minus the adverse effects and death: Cosequin, > Adequan, Yucca, Glycoflex, MSM, and S.O.D. My dog can't take many of these. > And just in case some are wondering what there is that works just as > well here is a short list that by themselves or in combination do the > same thing as Rimadyl minus the adverse effects and death: Cosequin, > Adequan, Yucca, Glycoflex, MSM, and S.O.D. If you talk to most vets and vet students, I think you'll find we do know that these are out there, and we integrate them into our long-term pain management options. However, they aren't always sufficient when the the pain gets too bad, which makes sense as these neutraceuticals try to head off inflammation rather than treat it. I personally think Cosequin is great for dogs that it works for, which IME is maybe half. >>Her vet ordered blood tests, which came back normal. She checked with >>Pfizer to see if seizures had been reported for dogs on Deramaxx - a few [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > the digestive system so to say this stuff works for cancer is > incorrect. There simply is no research that shows this. Thanks for this information. Our oncologist is participating in cancer trials with Deramaxx. He told us that there was research that indicated that it was helpful in arresting certain types of cancers, but not squamous cell carcinoma specifically. She also has hip dysplasia, and Deramaxx has made a huge difference in her mobility since she started on it last summer. We had a call from a vet at Pfizer asking for more specifics about Dylan's seizures. She didn't discount the possibility that Deramaxx was the agent. > The rock and the hard place here is that your dog is in it's twilight > of life so the question is what should you do, treat the dog and spend [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > probably not my next option although your vet may think so. Note: > Rimadyl kills more dogs a year than ten drugs combined. We have decided not to do the MRI, at least not for now, for pretty much the reasons you outlined. We will be talking with the oncologist later this week about Deramaxx and alternatives; she had been taking Feldene before Deramaxx, and it wasn't doing nearly as much for her hips; can't say what its effect on the cancer was, but that was the main reason it was initially prescribed. > So the rock and the hard place is what to do, nothing, stop the drug > for a while, or spend lots of money you don't have to do something [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Also, did you change the dogs diet recently including simply a > different flavor of the same dog food? No, her diet has always been a bit varied, but it's still the same brands and flavors of dog food. Thank you for your comments - even if you didn't give answers, you helped clarify the situation. FurPaw SignatureBrain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever. To reply, unleash the dog. |
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